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Old 04-15-2020   #181
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That depends on autobrake being on or not. With autobrake off, holding forward with the thok doesn't do anything because it would put you above your max speed. With autobrake on, though, releasing the controls causes backwards input to be provided to slow you down.
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Old 04-15-2020   #182
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Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
That depends on autobrake being on or not. With autobrake off, holding forward with the thok doesn't do anything because it would put you above your max speed. With autobrake on, though, releasing the controls causes backwards input to be provided to slow you down.
Doesnt this only apply to Sonic on the ground, though? I've had no problems making subtle adjustments to Sonic's air momentum and I haven't taken auto-break off.

For the record, I think auto break is an excellent feature and it made getting used to Sonic's high speed very easy to understand for me.
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Old 04-15-2020   #183
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No, it does not only apply on the ground. In fact, jumping physics is the primary reason why it was implemented to begin with.
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Old 04-15-2020   #184
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Ironically, I'd probably enable half-autobrake if it were an option. I like it on the ground, but I don't like how it feels in the air.
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Old 04-15-2020   #185
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I would love that option, could never get used to the current Autobrake, especially in levels like Aerial Garden.
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Old 04-15-2020   #186
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I had no idea autobrake also applied in the air, so naturally I had to do some testing. I loaded up v5 of the momentum mod again, as well as Air Thrust (The newer version) and tested it out with autobrake on. I love it. It feels much more like I'm in control than before, and because of the particular bugs that were in v5 of the momentum mod Sonic still has access to speed when you want him to.

If thok were to be replaced by anything, this is what I would replace it with. It feels really great to play with.
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Old 04-15-2020   #187
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I didn't remember ever experiencing this, so I went in game with no addons to test and make sure. It doesn't matter if I hold forward or not, thok brings me the same distance and in the same amount of time.
You don't get it, it's not a science experiment, it's something you experience when speedrunning: try both techniques, the one and the "thok spamming with not direction held; you'll see the difference in speed.
Spoiler: Technique
Right after landing, input spin and then jump and thok, it's just faster.
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Last edited by MRoach; 04-15-2020 at 10:16 PM.
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Old 04-15-2020   #188
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So I want to bring up a bit of a different take on this. I think we're too busy focusing on Sonic's ability and not looking into the level design itself.

One major difference between SRB2 and typical Sonic level design. Classic stages more often are linear platforming sections with punishment usually being dropped to a lower, slower route.

Where SRB2 differs is there tends to not be a lower route but instead relies on vertical platforming where the punishment for failing is more often death or worse, setting them back further in the level. I think this is shown the worst in CEZ1, ACZ1, and ACZ2. Now my previous statement isn't just to say they have no lower paths. In fact, the beginning of CEZ1 is actually pretty good on that and also including alternate, lower routes. But when you start looking at these stages, notice just how much of their area is just covered with bottomless pits. These makes every platforming mistake even more punishing.

I want to look at ACZ1 specifically. It has this interesting wrapping design where it feels like you're scaling cliff sides to advance. This however creates the issue that failing in the level slips you back even further than before. Then in the second half of the level when it takes a more linear approach, it's all focused down one path (whichever the current one you're on) and then bottle necks into a pully section that is not just long but also has somewhat odd grabbing physics. ACZ2 only emphasizes this design more than before. The paths just get more linear, bottomless pits cover a good portion of the player area, and the mine cart sections get added in, almost at random. This stage also features springs all over the sides of some objects that send the player off the edge with no chance to even attempt to react to them.

I want to bring this back around to a stage later in the game that I think is better designed for newbies than any of these stages: RVZ.

RVZ has a lot going for it. Difficult upper platforming that when failed punishes players with a slower, lower route, very few bottomless pit dumps, and my favorite thing, failing sends the player into physical lava. It eats the players rings, which is fine. It's a late game stage, but it doesn't instantly kill the player for not being able to perform the task at hand. My friends who have tried SRB2 have had a much easier time with RVZ due to its more forgiving way of doing things. Yes it's definitely harder in general than CEZ and ACZ, but rather than killing the player and being a life dump, it allows players another go, usually with extra rings nearby so the loss of rings through the lava is almost a non factor.

I think SRB2 overall would benefit a lot from minimizing how much bottomless pits are used and adding a few more safety nets, either through lower routes or letting them restart the challenge with a punish of damage and a spring back up.

To be completely honest, I think SRB2 would benefit greatly from the removal of lives all together, but I think that's a different argument than discussing Sonic himself.
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Old 04-15-2020   #189
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Originally Posted by LunickTMM View Post
To be completely honest, I think SRB2 would benefit greatly from the removal of lives all together, but I think that's a different argument than discussing Sonic himself.
I like lives in this game, tbh. They encourage the player to explore and find rings and 1-ups; not only that but perform well during special stages so you nab the continues! Without lives there would be veryittle to encourage players other explore, imo.

The punishment for losing all your lives isn't so bad either, you just get sent back to the beginning of whatever stage you died in.

Last edited by Solid SOAP; 04-15-2020 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 04-15-2020   #190
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A novice wouldn't be able to do this? Turning backwards to save oneself is an extreme use case, but there's plenty of situations where using a tool that quickly sets Sonic's horizontal and vertical momentum in any direction to a consistent amount helps with platforming.







Ficklecam is in the base release now and all controller users should have it on.
I strongly disagree, I'm a controller user and fucking hate simple mode. Good on people who like it, but i fucking despise it.
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Old 04-15-2020   #191
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I strongly disagree, I'm a controller user and fucking hate simple mode. Good on people who like it, but i fucking despise it.
What do you have the camera bound to? I can't imagine using it with the right stick; do you use the shoulders or triggers?
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Old 04-16-2020   #192
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Originally Posted by Magnemania View Post
What do you have the camera bound to? I can't imagine using it with the right stick; do you use the shoulders or triggers?
I used to be a Controller player, I did very well with normal Camera (It was the only option in 1.09.4-2.1) and I also hated the analog camera.
I played with the two sticks and used L as spin and R as jump.

---------- Post added at 08:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by LunickTMM View Post
So I want to bring up a bit of a different take on this....
That's way out of the main argument, we are discussing Sonic's ability within this or the future level design in 2.3 (Which I think wouldn't discern that much from the 2.2's), so Sonic is not that hard to maneuver for both old and new players. If you want a discussion over that, go and make another threat (I might also participate if I were to see that.)
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Old 04-16-2020   #193
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That's way out of the main argument...
That's what I'm getting at though. I don't really think the Thok is at fault so much as the unforgiving level design of late game stages. I invite a lot of my friends to try out the game, and every single time they get stuck on CEZ or ACZ because everything is so unforgiving to someone new, which is what caused the debate at hand.

I think Sonic's Thok is overall fine because it has some semblance of platforming, but gives Sonic a learning curve to learn how to get faster and faster, which is at the core of Sonic games in general. You certainly can get faster with an ability like Double Jump, but the depth it provides later in the game leaves a lot to be desired, and ultimately doesn't fix the issue of how punishing failing platform sections as well.
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Old 04-16-2020   #194
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As someone that loathes instant death obstacles in platformers, I don't believe that the CEZ and ACZ pits are that severe of a problem outside of CEZ's bridge setpiece being a bit overtuned.

I do agree that RVZ has the best difficulty balance of all the difficult stages, though. HHZ also manages to avoid abusing pits too severely.
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Old 04-16-2020   #195
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Originally Posted by LunickTMM View Post
That's what I'm getting at though. I don't really think the Thok is at fault so much as the unforgiving level design of late game stages. I invite a lot of my friends to try out the game, and every single time they get stuck on CEZ or ACZ because everything is so unforgiving to someone new, which is what caused the debate at hand.

I think Sonic's Thok is overall fine because it has some semblance of platforming, but gives Sonic a learning curve to learn how to get faster and faster, which is at the core of Sonic games in general. You certainly can get faster with an ability like Double Jump, but the depth it provides later in the game leaves a lot to be desired, and ultimately doesn't fix the issue of how punishing failing platform sections as well.
I actually agree a lot with you, the leves are really unforgiving and long. But as I said, you are way out of the argument though.

---------- Post added at 10:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnemania View Post
As someone that loathes instant death obstacles in platformers, I don't believe that the CEZ and ACZ pits are that severe of a problem outside of CEZ's bridge setpiece being a bit overtuned.

I do agree that RVZ has the best difficulty balance of all the difficult stages, though. HHZ also manages to avoid abusing pits too severely.
I can only complain that Knuckles struggles a lot in the last bit of CEZ2, Knuckles' jump is just too low.
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Old 04-16-2020   #196
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Level design is built around the capabilities of the characters meant to roam around through them. In this regard, level design and character moveset/capability are two sides of the same coin. Any significant changes to Sonic's moveset are likely to come with changes to level design to accommodate the shift in playstyle and capability.

In regards to the concept of "Upper" and "Lower" paths that the classic 2D games made common use of, I do actually like the idea of that being used more in SRB2's 3D spaces. The concept generally revolves around the level splitting into a higher and lower path early on in which it's entirely possible to fall from the higher path to the lower path if you aren't skilled enough. The higher path is more difficult but faster, while the lower path is safer but takes more time to navigate. This doesn't necessarily need to be the case for every zone, but I would like to see it used more in general regardless.

Within 3D space, it's possible to implement this kind of level design along more than one path. You could have two different main pathways that go in entirely different directions, each having their own upper and lower pathways.

My only main problem with this concept is that the levels have already been overhauled so many times already, and to change most of the game to comply with this mindset in level design would be a huge ask. More likely, whatever changes are made to Sonic's moveset, the levels would receive tweaks when necessary to accomodate his new moves and nothing as grand as a total restructuring of pathway progression logic.
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Old 04-16-2020   #197
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My only main problem with this concept is that the levels have already been overhauled so many times already, and to change most of the game to comply with this mindset in level design would be a huge ask. More likely, whatever changes are made to Sonic's moveset, the levels would receive tweaks when necessary to accomodate his new moves and nothing as grand as a total restructuring of pathway progression logic.
That's why I said
Quote:
It's out of the main argument
because the changes we are discussing do not require the Devs to completely remake all the stages, some tweaks there and somewhere.

Accommodate the sonic's new skills according to the new moveset they "will" make (Which I think is unneeded unless it's FSonic moveset).

---------- Post added at 11:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------

I keep bringing FSonic in the argument because he has almost what everyone is complaining:
Spoiler: Reasons
*You can avoid using thok if you are a novice
*The instashield could help you to avoid bosses' attacks
*When Sonic goes fast, his jump height will increase accordingly
*His running speed matches default Sonic with thok spamming but he has to gain it by running for an determined amount of time or by spindashing which also requires times
*Doesn't require too many changes to the level design, just gotta make some higher platforms here and there to match his jump height
*Old players have the advantage of using the instashield to avoid some obstacles because we'd have good timing.
*New players don't have to learn any of the tricks to complete the game.


These are the reasons I have for FSonic's moveset.
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Old 04-16-2020   #198
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I am incredibly confused as to why the very idea of rehauling the levels to fit Sonic's moveset is even part of the conversation. The levels are generally designed with the intention of a Thok-less Sonic to be able to go through them, much as how Sonic 3 and Sonic Mania design their levels for Sonic to go through them without relying on the Insta-Shield or the Drop Dash. Like the Drop Dash, the Thok is a tool for going fast far more than it is a tool for platforming, and the satisfaction from using the Thok usually arises from taking the same path Sonic would normally take, but faster and riskier.

The only level that could possibly need changing is Greenflower Act 1 to introduce opportunities for the player to use Sonic's new move, but I don't even see that as a necessity. Greenflower has enough gimmicks, collectibles, and side rooms for the player to learn a character's moveset regardless of what the character does. Every character I've played from Releases gets plenty of opportunities to use their moveset in vanilla Greenflower.
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Old 04-16-2020   #199
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That's why I said because the changes we are discussing do not require the Devs to completely remake all the stage
I don't think you quite understand what I'm getting at. Most stages don't even need to be redesigned. They just need additional safety nets to allow players to retry the platforming segment. The current level design is fine, but mistakes are pretty punishing, and for a new player, lives and continues aren't exactly easy to come by either. Especially when playing as Sonic. This is partially why Thok is so difficult for new comers. You don't hear very often players getting stuck in GFZ or THZ because those levels don't dump you into a pit for failing basic platforming. Heck these stages don't exactly have "lower paths" either but because they aren't a life sink, the player has more of a chance to learn.

And the FSonic skills, if they work as you describe, solve zero problems. The main issue that is being discussed is that, if I understand correctly, "Sonic's Thok isn't intuitive to platforming and is often misused by newer players". FSonic does nothing to assist in that regard.

Edit: I can also assure you the only stage that might need editing in regards to a new ability would be GFZ1 just to help incentive the player to try it out. Regular platforming in SRB2 is fine. If Robo-Hood can beat the game then I think the current main design is fine.

Last edited by LunickTMM; 04-16-2020 at 05:04 AM.
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Old 04-16-2020   #200
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Originally Posted by Magnemania View Post
I am incredibly confused as to why the very idea of rehauling the levels to fit Sonic's moveset is even part of the conversation. The levels are generally designed with the intention of a Thok-less Sonic to be able to go through them
It's not so much that the levels would suddenly be unable to be completed just because Sonic had a different move than thok, it's more that if Sonic's ability did change to, say, the double jump, the most satisfying way for that move to be implemented would be for the level design to accommodate it so that it feels useful. Yes, you would still be able to complete the levels without using Sonic's air ability, but the level design taking the ability into account and presenting opportunities to use it would help the ability feel justified to the player.

For example, say you have a line of platforms each of which is within reach without using any air abilities, but that are fairly small and narrow and require rather precise platforming to navigate from one to the next. In situations such as this, use of a double jump can be useful to help the player feel more in control and make navigating from one platform to the next feel more like a safe endeavor. Alternatively for more skilled players, use of a thok could allow the player to reach platforms further ahead than the next one or even the one after that, clearing the line of platforms more quickly than if they took their time jumping on each one in order.
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