Sonic's Ability Discussion

[Magnemania]

I like the Comet Dash, but it feels a bit too wonky to be Sonic's primary ability. It feels like the sort of thing a mod character should have alongside one or two other movement tools. It also comes across as a bit of a Diet Knuckles, since once can do a bit of limited 'gliding' and 'climbing' with it.

I do agree with CBLuigi; interacting with the terrain is very Sonic, and it almost feels like a proper SRB2 equivalent to the Drop Dash, since the game's so focused around aerial movement rather than grounded movement.

I like how the speed cap on it discourages spamming, too.

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On the other side of things, I'm not a fan of the increased air control double jump at all. I don't think it makes very much sense to throw two different sets of air physics at new players right from the start, and I find that I end up double jumping just to get the easier controls on nearly every jump.

 

[Dabir]

An alternative that's also being discussed is to have Sonic's double jump ability simply function as a double jump with increased air control. It's been found that the air control is sufficient on its own to allow players to correct their jumps.

While the horizontal thrust does allow for more technical play, one issue with the current builds is that it makes it a bit too easy to overshoot tight platforming on a keyboard. Controllers don't experience this issue as much due to the granularity of control that a stick allows, but key presses unfortunately don't allow for that sort of nuance.

(Note: Shields are buggy in this build)

I like this one a bit less than your previous. It's significantly blander as an ability than and it sort of has the worst of both worlds on the air control - I, personally, can't tell that it's any different, but it is, and that's going to confuse someone. I think the airdash you had before was approaching the right sort of point where it's relatively easy for even a complete idiot like me to get some benefit out of it, but also has a lot of technical room in the long run. Have you considered my suggestion about the airdash going long or high depending on whether you tap or hold the button?

Thanks the for quick feedback. I made a small hotfix to the comet dash which should make the wall jump activate more reliably. Also fixed a bug where you could sometimes get a false positive wall jump from Canarivore poison.

New download here

This is Mega Man X. I like Mega Man X, but I'm not sure I like it being Sonic's ability set.

First, I don't think it really has its own identity. It kind of just feels like Knuckles, but less. It climbs walls, but only a little bit. It goes horizontal distances, but not that much.

Second, Sonic just going forward at a completely flat angle feels really weird, can't put my finger on why.

Third, I don't like how it doesn't help with verticality at all if there's no walls to bounce off.

Fourth, the wall jump doesn't have enough fine control to help with getting onto small platforms. There's a box right the end of GFZ2, next to the pillar with a 1-up on it, that's the right kind of size to show off what I mean - you can't jump onto it normally, you can use the wall jump to get up to the height of its surface but if you then do another Comet Dash you just completely overshoot it, and if you don't then you don't have the air control to actually land on it. This also makes the third wall jump almost completely useless, because now that you've used up your mobility options you can very rarely actually get anywhere after using it. It almost feels like using the ability to what you thought its fullest was is a trap.

Other abilities that give you a burst of speed or distance have this problem of overshooting landings, but this one has it even more than most because after a wall jump, you're guaranteed to be very close to the wall. Of course, that means it's also the most easily fixed, because you know exactly what situation the player's going to be in when they have the problem.

As far as altering it goes, first, I'd change it so you have one Comet Dash, but if you bounce off a wall it refreshes. Second, I'd try and implement some way to cancel out of it early so it's possible to land on platforms that are smaller than the dash distance. And lastly, I'd give this to someone else. I don't think it's a good fit for Sonic. If we weren't putting the Thok on Metal Sonic, it might be decent for him - have the dash use his boost animation instead of his curled animation.

 

[Magnemania]

This might be going a bit off-topic, but the Comet Dash feels like the perfect ability, thematically, for Mighty. Climbing walls with it functions a bit like the wall jump, rebounding off of surfaces feels a bit like the Hammer Drop, the move involves staying curled up, it's not tremendously useful for raw speed, and it feels quite physically powerful to use.

There's already a Mighty mod in Releases that implements the wall jump and the hammer drop, but neither of them are especially useful in SRB2, whereas this is quite useful.

 

[Solid SOAP]

1. What are your current feelings on Sonic's thok?Would you say with certainty that it's an unbalanced ability?

I like it, currently. It allows for skilled players to reposition themselves and/or get a speedboost when needed. He doesn't have an easy save like flying and gliding as Tails or Knuckles, so it is really for expert players.

2. Would you change Sonic's double-jump to something else if you could? If so, what would you replace it with?

No. The only thing I can think of would be a homing attack. However, that would make the magnet shield redundant, no?

3. Everyone has already been a beginner once. So, in your first ever playthrough of SRB2, how hard was it to get adjusted to Sonic's playstyle? Was the thok so weird you were forced to play as Tails first, or could you handle it normally?

I played as Sonic and Tails. I used Tails as a failsafe when the platforming got too rough. I played with simple controls and a PS4 controller and didn't have too much trouble getting used to playing as Sonic by the end of the campaign.

Speaking of Tails, I have some suggestions for balancing "Sonic & Tails" gameplay: Why not just nerf Tails' flight when carrying Sonic?

It is easy to completely skip over entire level design and get lost when using Tails as an aid, so why not make it so Tails can only suspend you as high as you jump with him? Or he only does a slow ascent into the air so you can't cheese the level design completely?

 

[Mario A. Roach]

..So it isn't necessarily intended to make the campaign easier as much as it is to increase an experienced player's repertoire, allowing for vertical shortcuts...

No matter what, if you make a new ability intended for new players, it has to make the game easier somehow, and more for the old players.
It might be unintended, but if I said it made campaign harder it'd be a concern for us; also, the game is already easy for us with the thok.

---------- Post added at 11:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 AM ----------

...Why not just nerf Tails' flight when carrying Sonic?

I don't think that's a good idea, it's there for players who can't do certain objectives and chose to use tails, funnily enough, my first play-through was with S&T and I really liked it, used it to skip some parts and stuff, because it's part of the level design and you can't just skip everything, just some parts.

 

[cookiefonster]

As fun as it can be to have Tails carry Sonic as high up as he can, I won't deny that the way the game implements it is crazy overpowered. Unfortunately, I can't think of a better way to handle it while keeping everything confined to movement keys, jump, and spin. Right now, jump makes you jump off Tails and spin makes Tails go downwards, while there's no other way to control Tails' vertical movement like there is when playing as him. Because of this issue, I wouldn't mind having Tails carrying Sonic simply nerfed a little bit.

 

[Solid SOAP]

I don't think that's a good idea, it's there for players who can't do certain objectives and chose to use tails, funnily enough, my first play-through was with S&T and I really liked it, used it to skip some parts and stuff, because it's part of the level design and you can't just skip everything, just some parts.

Tails would still be able to be used to take Sonic over tricky jumps if he stays in a straight line, though, if we're using my suggestion. For example, the series of platforms in the desert level suspended over a bottomless pit would be nullified, as would be much of Egg Rock. Tails just wouldn't take Sonic nigh infinitely in the sky, is all.

 

[Seaballer]

Reducing Tails's flight time while carrying a player altogether doesn't sound like a bad idea. IIRC in S3&K Tails's flight duration while carrying Sonic was lower than his base one as well so it even sorta fits.

 

[Turret 49]

I'm of the opinion that giving Sonic a literal double jump for access to free extra height at any time goes against his design, he should be a more "grounded" character that interacts with the terrain in my eyes. I also feel like if he needs the extra jump height to vertically navigate a stage, something went wrong in the level design.

 

[baltosaa]

1. What are your current feelings on Sonic's thok? Would you say with certainty that it's an unbalanced ability?

I feel like Thok makes platforming a ton of fun.

It's great for quickly moving platform to platform, like in Arid Canyon zone 1.

I'm not sure about it being overpowered. I enjoy fast-paced platformers a lot, and Thok gives me just that. High-speed platforming, and if you mess up, you slow down/die, but its super satisfying to go through levels at high-speeds and flow through it all. Especially platform-heavy ones. (Eggman's Castle is also fun for this)

2. Would you change Sonic's double-jump to something else if you could? If so, what would you replace it with?

I'm not very creative, so I can't come up with anything. I tried out Cobalt's mod that was posted here though, and I think it works well with momentum mods added. Definitely keeps the high-speed gameplay/platforming I love so much alive, but I'm not sure if anything like the Momentum mods would be added to vanilla SRB2.


3. Everyone has already been a beginner once. So, in your first ever playthrough of SRB2, how hard was it to get adjusted to Sonic's playstyle? Was the thok so weird you were forced to play as Tails first, or could you handle it normally?

Well, way back when I first played SRB2 (As a kid), I would exclusively play as Tails. Not because Sonic was too hard (I never gave him a chance back then to really know how hard or easy he was), but because Tails was my favorite.

I picked SRB2 back up a while back and played as Sonic this time, (Now an adult) and I didn't have a hard time. It was easy enough to pick him up, and I only got more and more skilled with him as time went on. Very satisfying.


(btw, I don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet, but I wonder if this new Sonic ability could be optional instead of outright replacing Thok. Like have this new one marked as "Normal" mode so that new players will automatically use it, and have Thok to the side as a "Hard" mode?

 

[time gear]

Out of the alternatives posted here the Air Thrust is probably my favorite, though I still prefer thok.

One idea I did think of though that's kinda similar (though also kinda the opposite in a way) however is if Sonic thoks when you aren't holding a direction input, but double jumps (Modern Sonic style, with the short hop being the second jump. I will just call it Double Jump for simplicity) if you are. It's a little counter intuitive in that it's more expected to gain a burst of speed if you are holding a direction as opposed to not, however I do feel as though this would solve a few problems.

Firstly, because the player is not holding down a directional input, Sonic thokking in the direction of the camera becomes a lot more intuitive on account of him facing the same direction as the camera when not holding down a direction in standard mode (I forget if the jump sprites also do this but if not it probably wouldn't be hard to make them do it).

Secondly, the thok has a set speed it causes the player to propel to anyway, so holding down a direction such as forward (especially considering forward is the only direction it can go when not in simple mode) doesn't give it any benefit. There's simply no need for it.

Thirdly, if the player is trying to double jump, they are also likely to be holding a direction as they will be attempting to steer the jump to their desired landing spot. Most notably for the purposes of this discussion, a beginner player might be able to make some use out of being able to jump backwards the way they just came as a corrective tool, and even experienced players might be able to make use of it as a mobility tool in certain situations.

This effectively acts as a compromise that allows for the thok to stay while also giving Sonic the added benefit that comes with a double jump. For the sake of it not being overpowered, I would probably lower Sonic's base jump height a little so that the combination of both jumps equals out to about as high as Sonic can reach now. This should allow the level design already built around his jump height to remain compatible while also giving Sonic a little bit more midair mobility. This also preserves Amy as the highest jumper (not including Fang's bounce).

 

[LunickTMM]

The idea of holding a direction is nice, but I think Air Thrust overall solves both those issues you present and then some, while yours creates an additional issue.

While on paper it's very simple. Hold a direction and thok, don't hold it and double jump. However in more intense situations, that just creates the issue of misinputs. There's often times you want to keep moving forward with a double jump and just hold it down. Likewise I've often found times where I desire a burst of speed with the thok but I'm not currently holding forward.

The best part of every ability in SRB2 is they do one thing and are easy to pick up. The second you have to think "ah but what if it does this in this scenario and this in another" you're already making it more complicated than it should.

 

[time gear]

The idea of holding a direction is nice, but I think Air Thrust overall solves both those issues you present and then some, while yours creates an additional issue.

While on paper it's very simple. Hold a direction and thok, don't hold it and double jump. However in more intense situations, that just creates the issue of misinputs. There's often times you want to keep moving forward with a double jump and just hold it down. Likewise I've often found times where I desire a burst of speed with the thok but I'm not currently holding forward.

The best part of every ability in SRB2 is they do one thing and are easy to pick up. The second you have to think "ah but what if it does this in this scenario and this in another" you're already making it more complicated than it should.

You got it backwards. My suggestion is thok when not holding a direction, double jump when holding a direction.

 

[LunickTMM]

You got it backwards. My suggestion is thok when not holding a direction, double jump when holding a direction.

My main argument still stands then. You're creating an instance that is less intuitive than the rest of the cast on a basic character. The beauty of SRB2 and classic Sonic for that matter, is that things always work the same way and aren't direction reliant. Most commonly players want to use thok while running forward. It still created the same scenario of wanting to be doing one thing and something else coming happening.

If anything, this suggestion might work better if we bound thok to spin and double jump to jump. This nerfs some utility with combining thok with other shields, but I think the trade off would be fine and follows suit with classic design of Sonic's insta shield since it's unusable with a shield on.

 

[[deleted user2]]

Simple mode does have more than *"forward." Air Thrust actually does control quite well, even with the "hold back to increase height." Though, it's a bit awkward to use in general.


*(Simple always was "forward" in the ficklecam builds, but was fixed when it was integrated into the main game.)

 

[clairebun]

You got it backwards. My suggestion is thok when not holding a direction, double jump when holding a direction.

I'm pretty sure that would be even less intuitive lol.

At any rate, the issue has more to do with the fact that sticks have more control over the granularity of the thrust ability whereas keyboard is really touchy.

 

[BomberBlur07]

1. What are your current feelings on Sonic's thok?
I like it, it's overpowered and lets me speedrun levels easily. However, I can't adjust to the thok not locking on like a homing attack due to me playing Sonic 4 a lot.

2. Would you change Sonic's double-jump to something else if you could?
It's the same as the first question, the homing attack. (even though I have the Neo Sonic mod)

3. Everyone has already been a beginner once. So, in your first ever playthrough of SRB2, how hard was it to get adjusted to Sonic's playstyle?
It was not hard to get used to the thok for me. It was literally the homing attack without the enemy lock and more powerful, lol.

 

[time gear]

My main argument still stands then. You're creating an instance that is less intuitive than the rest of the cast on a basic character.

I'm pretty sure that would be even less intuitive lol.

I did address this in my post in which I made the suggestion. It's true that it's not entirely intuitive, but thok (At least outside simple mode) doesn't rely on a direction being held to gain it's speed whereas aiming where you land with double jump does more actively involve holding down a direction. This is why I feel like it's more intuitive than the opposite case in which double jump would be bound to not holding a direction. This would result in lost distance with the double jump as a result of not starting the double jump holding a direction, which isn't ideal.

This is the only way I can think of to avoid replacing the thok entirely without making use of additional buttons such as custom 1 and without sacrificing the thok every time you grab a shield.

Slightly off topic by the way, but is there any particular reason why shield abilities shouldn't be able to be used in the same jump as a jump ability? I can get how it could be somewhat overpowered in some situations, but I feel like for Sonic in particular it would make him feel a lot better in terms of mobility.

 

[Mario A. Roach]

...doesn't rely on a direction being held to gain it's speed...

That's actually really wrong, thok needs you to hold forward in order to go faster and maintain your speed; you can also keep speed or even gain more if you tap "spin" after landing (it feels faster, but I cannot say so because I lack of a ingame speed-o-meter).

 

[time gear]

That's actually really wrong, thok needs you to hold forward in order to go faster and maintain your speed; you can also keep speed or even gain more if you tap "spin" after landing (it feels faster, but I cannot say so because I lack of a ingame speed-o-meter).

I didn't remember ever experiencing this, so I went in game with no addons to test and make sure. It doesn't matter if I hold forward or not, thok brings me the same distance and in the same amount of time.