Sonic moveset: simple or complex?

ManuelRome

Member
I've had this thought living rent free in my head for a while, that if I were to reboot Sonic gameplay as a whole (At least in terms of the modern 3D games), I would start by redoing Sonic's moveset into something closer to what Mario has in Super Mario Odyssey, that being, a bunch of moves that allow you to string them together in a way that encourages being creative around the way you use them and when to use them, and that allows the levels to have all sorts of different designs and obstacles.

That being said, the thought of having Sonic moveset be mostly just jumping and running around with momentum based physics and having the levels be designed around that (Kinda like Marble Blast type of design), also seems interesting to me, so the question is, if you were to remake Sonic's moveset, would you aim for something simple or something more complex? (Consider that the levels would be designed around this moveset)
 
When talking about rebooting a gameplay style, it's not just a matter of making it "simple" or "complex", but largely one of identity. Will the moveset you come up with still register in players minds as belonging to the character they are playing as, or is the moveset simply being rebooted for the sake of being rebooted? Or to put it differently, will players feel more like they are playing as Mario in a Sonic outfit, or will they really feel like they are playing as Sonic? For clarification, I'm not being specific with the Mario example, you could replace "Mario" with anything and the point still applies.

As for whether to go with a more simple or complex moveset, Sonic at it's core has always been about speed and fluidity, regardless of how much momentum factors into this. You want to Sonic to spend as much time moving forward without grinding to a halt as possible. This is largely why the Boost formula is so widely accepted despite being a far cry from the classic momentum style gameplay. Even though the playstyle gives you speed at the press of a button without having to earn it, keeping that speed and especially making the most of it can be something of a challenge. The appeal comes in with trying to complete stages as fast as possible without taking hits.

Ideally, any moveset in a platformer like this should be as simple as you can manage it. If the player has to memorize what effectively amounts to a dozen fighting game combos just to do halfway decent at the game, you're fighting against the current in regards to gameplay fluidity. The player needs to feel in control so that if they die, they feel like it's their own fault rather than shoddy game design. That doesn't mean that more complex controls aren't allowed, but the complexity should come from skillful application rather than complex execution.

For example, Adventure 2 Sonic has a spindash, a bounce, and a homing attack. Spindash and bounce are mapped to the same button, and you can jump out of a spindash. While airborn from bouncing or jumping, you can press jump again to homing attack. This presents a certain level of complexity to his moveset in that Sonic has options on how to make use of his mobility and attacks. You could spindash jump to cross a larger gap, bounce before you land, and then use the added height from the bounce to land a homing attack on an enemy which delvers you to a further ahead platform, all by making use of only two buttons. Sonic's moves flow together in a way that leaves the player feeling fluidly in control while being able to perform skillful complex actions with only a few button presses. The moveset itself is simple, but you can do complex actions with it if you're good at it

Overall, I don't really feel like Sonic's moveset needs to be rebooted so much as it needs to be refined. SEGA needs to decide which moves Sonic has available to him flow best together for the gameplay they are trying to achieve, and then have the confidence to go for it. His moveset should feel familiar, fluid, simple, and have a high skill ceiling without punishing newer players. Something in the middle between Adventure, Adventure 2, and Boost would probably feel quite nice.
 
When talking about rebooting a gameplay style, it's not just a matter of making it "simple" or "complex", but largely one of identity. Will the moveset you come up with still register in players minds as belonging to the character they are playing as, or is the moveset simply being rebooted for the sake of being rebooted? Or to put it differently, will players feel more like they are playing as Mario in a Sonic outfit, or will they really feel like they are playing as Sonic?

I 100% agree with this, I did think giving Sonic a moveset closer to Mario's moveset would just feel like a skin, instead of feeling like I'm playing as Sonic, but I only used Mario as an example of how that character moveset has evolved into what Odyssey has, and how I want Sonic to have that same kind of natural evolution for his moveset, the issue is, in order for that to happen, I do think it needs to be considered from the ground up, I wasn't saying every ability needed to get removed or changed, just reconsidered as a whole.

Ideally, any moveset in a platformer like this should be as simple as you can manage it. If the player has to memorize what effectively amounts to a dozen fighting game combos just to do halfway decent at the game, you're fighting against the current in regards to gameplay fluidity. The player needs to feel in control so that if they die, they feel like it's their own fault rather than shoddy game design. That doesn't mean that more complex controls aren't allowed, but the complexity should come from skillful application rather than complex execution.

This I agree with as well, I'm mostly at fault for not specifying what I meant with every detail on the main post, but I didn't want the first post to be super long. But yes, complexity to me doesn't translate directly into tons of moves or complex inputs, going back to Mario Odyssey, to me that is a complex moveset, but it doesn't need a very skillful player to be able to use his moveset in a normal playtrough.

For example, Adventure 2 Sonic has a spindash, a bounce, and a homing attack. Spindash and bounce are mapped to the same button, and you can jump out of a spindash. While airborn from bouncing or jumping, you can press jump again to homing attack. This presents a certain level of complexity to his moveset in that Sonic has options on how to make use of his mobility and attacks. You could spindash jump to cross a larger gap, bounce before you land, and then use the added height from the bounce to land a homing attack on an enemy which delvers you to a further ahead platform, all by making use of only two buttons. Sonic's moves flow together in a way that leaves the player feeling fluidly in control while being able to perform skillful complex actions with only a few button presses. The moveset itself is simple, but you can do complex actions with it if you're good at it

This I partially agree with, but I disagree with the feeling of fluidity from SA2 moveset, mostly because, in the stages where you control Sonic, it doesn't feel as if it they were designed entirely with Sonic abilites in mind. For example, you mentioned how you can use the spindash along with the jump to cross larger gaps, you could even jump at an angle and gain some height, and while true on paper, considering the speed and camera angles the game works with, I feel like the game doesn't help you play around with those types of things, I've only seen people who have beaten SA2 multiple times be able to make those types of movements, and considering that, I want to be able to feel like I'm in control of Sonic wether or not I've beaten the game before. That being said, it's mostly the spindash I have issue with, at least in how it works in SA2, I think both the homing attack and bounce work great mostly.

Overall, I don't really feel like Sonic's moveset needs to be rebooted so much as it needs to be refined. SEGA needs to decide which moves Sonic has available to him flow best together for the gameplay they are trying to achieve, and then have the confidence to go for it. His moveset should feel familiar, fluid, simple, and have a high skill ceiling without punishing newer players. Something in the middle between Adventure, Adventure 2, and Boost would probably feel quite nice.

I don't think just combining existing movesets or refining the ones they already have is an option, if the main moveset doesn't have a great foundation to expand upon in the first place. If you consider the Boost formula, which I actually really like, I don't think it has that mouch ground in terms of expansion to cover, since a lot of the movement Sonic has is constrained and controlled by the game itself, and not by the player, so expanding it would usually just create either more issues, or abilites that are underused (Like the parkour ability in Lost World).

Now, the SA/SA2 moveset does have a sort of foundation that I think could be expanded and refined, but I still think it would need to be reconsidered from the ground up, mostly because of the lack of fluidity from those games, it is only fluid once you played the game countless of times, either because of the lack of options Sonic has while moving, or just generally the clunkiness of the engine, altough that is less about the moveset itself.

As for whether to go with a more simple or complex moveset, Sonic at it's core has always been about speed and fluidity, regardless of how much momentum factors into this. You want to Sonic to spend as much time moving forward without grinding to a halt as possible. This is largely why the Boost formula is so widely accepted despite being a far cry from the classic momentum style gameplay. Even though the playstyle gives you speed at the press of a button without having to earn it, keeping that speed and especially making the most of it can be something of a challenge. The appeal comes in with trying to complete stages as fast as possible without taking hits.

Yes, I believe Sonic at its core is about speed, but I think a lot of people misunderstand what that means, or what it could mean for the character, for instance, when talking about SA/SA2 and how the moveset can be used, usually people put examples on how they can skip entire parts of the level using certain string of abilities, and while it is fun, I don't think that's the same feeling I want for a Sonic game, I want to be able to traverse through any obstacle the game throws at me quickly and fluidly, ideally without losing speed, and for that, I believe tha actual level design and moveset has to coincide in a way, so that it's simple to try different ways of going through the level, and in doing so both exploration and beating the stages quickly is encouraged.
 
Imo, the adventure games, rush games, and advance games have the best moveset so I guess I could say a combination of both
I played Rush before, imo it's just hold down button = speed. Advance is run long enough = speed. Haven't played Adventure but isn't it just... spamdash = speed? I think it's best to do a moveset from scratch
 
I played Rush before, imo it's just hold down button = speed. Advance is run long enough = speed. Haven't played Adventure but isn't it just... spamdash = speed? I think it's best to do a moveset from scratch
None of them are hold to get speed, for advance and rush, yes you hold right but you also have to do tricks to get to different areas, challenges, and more, for adventure it kinda the same, although it's just light speed dash, homing attack, spamdash, and again, going through easy or tough challenges
 
This I partially agree with, but I disagree with the feeling of fluidity from SA2 moveset, mostly because, in the stages where you control Sonic, it doesn't feel as if it they were designed entirely with Sonic abilites in mind. For example, you mentioned how you can use the spindash along with the jump to cross larger gaps, you could even jump at an angle and gain some height, and while true on paper, considering the speed and camera angles the game works with, I feel like the game doesn't help you play around with those types of things, I've only seen people who have beaten SA2 multiple times be able to make those types of movements, and considering that, I want to be able to feel like I'm in control of Sonic wether or not I've beaten the game before. That being said, it's mostly the spindash I have issue with, at least in how it works in SA2, I think both the homing attack and bounce work great mostly.
My point was in regards to Sonic's moveset/toolkit, not in regards to SA2's level design.

I don't think just combining existing movesets or refining the ones they already have is an option, if the main moveset doesn't have a great foundation to expand upon in the first place. If you consider the Boost formula, which I actually really like, I don't think it has that mouch ground in terms of expansion to cover, since a lot of the movement Sonic has is constrained and controlled by the game itself, and not by the player, so expanding it would usually just create either more issues, or abilites that are underused (Like the parkour ability in Lost World).

Now, the SA/SA2 moveset does have a sort of foundation that I think could be expanded and refined, but I still think it would need to be reconsidered from the ground up, mostly because of the lack of fluidity from those games, it is only fluid once you played the game countless of times, either because of the lack of options Sonic has while moving, or just generally the clunkiness of the engine, altough that is less about the moveset itself.
Boost actually gives the player more control than you might think, though this control is largely reactionary. For example, if you ever feel the need to come to a dead stop, you can simply do a full jump (as opposed to a hop) and then stomp, redirecting Sonic's movement straight downwards until he lands, at which point his motion has ceased. How restrictive the formula is boils down to how much freedom the level design gives you.

While the Boost formula replaces much of Sonic's moveset, it could be combined with, say, the SA2 moveset by simply making a few tweaks here and there such as replacing the Stomp with the Bounce. Holding down the crouch button and then pressing boost could be used to charge a spindash instead, and from there the Lightspeed Attack could be charged up. This functions as an example of expanding the Boost toolkit, but there's other examples of how it could be expanded as well, such as by giving it Lost World's multi-homing and kicks. Overall, while Boost is largely it's own beast, it's surprisingly compatible with other existing playstyles which could be drawn from to expand it.

Yes, I believe Sonic at its core is about speed, but I think a lot of people misunderstand what that means, or what it could mean for the character, for instance, when talking about SA/SA2 and how the moveset can be used, usually people put examples on how they can skip entire parts of the level using certain string of abilities, and while it is fun, I don't think that's the same feeling I want for a Sonic game, I want to be able to traverse through any obstacle the game throws at me quickly and fluidly, ideally without losing speed, and for that, I believe tha actual level design and moveset has to coincide in a way, so that it's simple to try different ways of going through the level, and in doing so both exploration and beating the stages quickly is encouraged.
While doing skips is fun and is definitely a noteworthy thing you can do with Sonic's toolkit in SA/SA2, it's hardly all that opens up for you through mastery of the moveset. I'd recommend watching speedruns that don't utilize skips as well as some speedrun tutorials to see some of the crazy stuff you can do in the Adventure games when you know what you are doing. Proper use of Spamdash for example goes a long way towards getting those coveted faster clear times, and that's only just scratching the surface.
 
My point was in regards to Sonic's moveset/toolkit, not in regards to SA2's level design.

I get that, but for me, in order for the character movement to feel fluid, the moveset needs to coincide with the level design, which I just don't think was the case. You can have a great moveset but if the level design doesn't allow for experimentation on the go, then I don't think it could feel fluid. You could have the argument that SA/SA2 stages DO actually allow the player to experiment with Sonic moveset, and while I agree on that, I've never felt comfortable with it, in comparison to other 3D platformers that do this better.

While the Boost formula replaces much of Sonic's moveset, it could be combined with, say, the SA2 moveset by simply making a few tweaks here and there such as replacing the Stomp with the Bounce. Holding down the crouch button and then pressing boost could be used to charge a spindash instead, and from there the Lightspeed Attack could be charged up. This functions as an example of expanding the Boost toolkit, but there's other examples of how it could be expanded as well, such as by giving it Lost World's multi-homing and kicks. Overall, while Boost is largely it's own beast, it's surprisingly compatible with other existing playstyles which could be drawn from to expand it.

I actually do think SA2 moveset is largely very good in terms of the abilities you have, but how they were implemented is a different thing alltogether, because comparing it to the Boost formula, I actually believe its moveset works way better with their stages than the SA/SA2 games, mostly because they're based around quick reactions when going super fast, rather than actual platforming (excluding the 2D sections of course), kinda like some of those auto runners.

And considering that, to me, combining both of those movesets is a bit counterproductive, considering how well one works for their stages compared to the other, and how different the levels are designed for both of those types of games.

While doing skips is fun and is definitely a noteworthy thing you can do with Sonic's toolkit in SA/SA2, it's hardly all that opens up for you through mastery of the moveset. I'd recommend watching speedruns that don't utilize skips as well as some speedrun tutorials to see some of the crazy stuff you can do in the Adventure games when you know what you are doing. Proper use of Spamdash for example goes a long way towards getting those coveted faster clear times, and that's only just scratching the surface.

I have watched a lot of videos comparing the Boost formula with the Adventure formula, and both give great tools for things like speedruns. Thing is, I'm not talking about speedruns, I'm talking about a normal playthrough, I actually just beat SA2 recently after a long time without replaying it, and even if I'm only talking about Sonic/Shadow stages, some of those still felt pretty rough in terms of controlling the character.

Sure I could say maybe it's just the nature of how fast the character goes that impedes the gameplay feeling easy to control in a normal playthrough for a platformer, but I actually think that there is potential in trying to make gameplay that feels fast, without actually having to have the amount of skill a speedrunner or even just someone who has mastered the gameplay has. The reason I think this is actually the same reason I'm in this forum, I still think there are fangames (Including SRB2), that have the potential to reach this type of gameplay that I'm talking about, as if it was some sort of unreachable point still, but somewhere in the future I do see it happening. I've only seen this kind of gameplay once, on a fangame called Project Hero, I saw some video that had new gameplay of an unreleased demo, that, to me, is exactly the type of thing I'm describing.

Anyway, I still think it's fun to talk about the potential in a completely different type of gameplay for Sonic, maybe not necessarily the moveset, but the way the moveset is implemented, either by adding or tweaking other Sonic movesets from the existing games.
 
I get that, but for me, in order for the character movement to feel fluid, the moveset needs to coincide with the level design, which I just don't think was the case. You can have a great moveset but if the level design doesn't allow for experimentation on the go, then I don't think it could feel fluid. You could have the argument that SA/SA2 stages DO actually allow the player to experiment with Sonic moveset, and while I agree on that, I've never felt comfortable with it, in comparison to other 3D platformers that do this better.
When you are talking about rebooting/revamping a character's playstyle however, you aren't typically discussing existing level design. You talk about what works, why it works, and how to design levels around it. Some examples of what doesn't work from a level design standpoint could be a part of the discussion, but when the topic at hand is focused primarily on what works about a particular moveset itself, talking about how you personally don't like the level design of the game that the playstyle comes from feels a bit off topic.

I actually do think SA2 moveset is largely very good in terms of the abilities you have, but how they were implemented is a different thing alltogether, because comparing it to the Boost formula, I actually believe its moveset works way better with their stages than the SA/SA2 games, mostly because they're based around quick reactions when going super fast, rather than actual platforming (excluding the 2D sections of course), kinda like some of those auto runners.

And considering that, to me, combining both of those movesets is a bit counterproductive, considering how well one works for their stages compared to the other, and how different the levels are designed for both of those types of games.
It's at this point I feel the need to point out the difference between fluidity and speed, and how that adds up to your time at the end of the level. Going fast is definitely the core appeal to a Sonic game, but it's not always the most optimal way to proceed, and as counter intuitive as it may sound going fast isn't always the fastest way to the goal.

Fluidity isn't just how in control you feel over the character, but how well their moveset strings together and how the level design accommodates this movement. While you often can simply just boost forward at top speed, this doesn't change the fact that the fastest path between two points is a straight line, and so taking the time to slow down to take a shorter path can prove beneficial, as can slowing down to avoid crashing full speed into harmful obstacles such as spikes, walls, bottomless pits, projectiles, etc.

Let's take the example of replacing the stomp with the bounce. This would benefit the gameplay flow and sense of speed by allowing Sonic to quickly redirect his momentum downward when the level design calls for it, but then to immediately regain some of that height instead of landing and getting stuck in a short animation before you can move again. From here, you could then do a number of actions from the bounce state; air boost, homing attack, or another bounce. This would comparatively not just give Sonic more utility options after landing, but would give the player the option to resume their speed much faster than if they had landed a stomp. Depending on how the level design accomodates this, the player could even have different options in which direction to boost or homing attack, leading to different pathways that are faster or contain items such as red star rings or 1-ups.

I have watched a lot of videos comparing the Boost formula with the Adventure formula, and both give great tools for things like speedruns. Thing is, I'm not talking about speedruns, I'm talking about a normal playthrough, I actually just beat SA2 recently after a long time without replaying it, and even if I'm only talking about Sonic/Shadow stages, some of those still felt pretty rough in terms of controlling the character.

Sure I could say maybe it's just the nature of how fast the character goes that impedes the gameplay feeling easy to control in a normal playthrough for a platformer, but I actually think that there is potential in trying to make gameplay that feels fast, without actually having to have the amount of skill a speedrunner or even just someone who has mastered the gameplay has. The reason I think this is actually the same reason I'm in this forum, I still think there are fangames (Including SRB2), that have the potential to reach this type of gameplay that I'm talking about, as if it was some sort of unreachable point still, but somewhere in the future I do see it happening. I've only seen this kind of gameplay once, on a fangame called Project Hero, I saw some video that had new gameplay of an unreleased demo, that, to me, is exactly the type of thing I'm describing.

Anyway, I still think it's fun to talk about the potential in a completely different type of gameplay for Sonic, maybe not necessarily the moveset, but the way the moveset is implemented, either by adding or tweaking other Sonic movesets from the existing games.
The utility of a moveset for speedrunning doesn't necessarily only pertain to speedrunning, especially in regards to a speed focused game like Sonic. Sure, a large part of the appeal is reaching the end goal as fast as possible, but that doesn't mean that you have to utilize the moveset for this. Spamdashing for example will certainly help you shave time off your run through a level, but it's usefulness isn't limited to just finishing faster. It can be used to make tight turns, maintain momentum to clear a large gap, used as a method of attacking multiple enemies in quick succession, and can even be used as a handy backtracking tool if you think you missed something earlier in the level. When the core appeal to a game is it's speed, anything that helps you go faster is going to help you do much of whatever else you are trying to do as well given that the moveset is fluid and the level design is accommodating.

I find your final point confusing. It sounds like you're talking about largely the same thing I've been discussing myself in regards to tweaking Sonic's moveset in regards to what works and why, such as incorporating elements of SA2 Sonic's moveset into the Boost formula. However, in this same post you seem to be voicing against doing this, regarding it as counterproductive. Is there perhaps a way you could clarify what it is you mean?
 
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I think I might have an idea that might make everyone happy. It's not complete, but it's between 50%-75% finished. Just need more ideas.
 
Imo, I think momentum is a very good thing, one reason why people love the classic quadrilogy (including cd) is because of the simple controls and momentum, Sonic 2's Chemical Plant Zone had you go faster when you went down the big slope, another point was that when you mastered the level design, you came to understand the physics, and you were able to use it to your advantage when trying to get through the level as fast as possible.

Adventure 1 did a decent job in translating those physics into the 3d world, Sonic had a floatier jump that made it easy to land where you wanted to, I'm not saying that the Adventure games were perfect, the boost games focused greatly on speed, and while there's nothing wrong with that, platforming was restricted to 2d, (I'm specifically referring to Forces and Colors,) while this is one way to handle platforming, it does not really make room for momentum when you are able to blast forward with the press of a button.

In the classic games and advance games, to maintain speed you had to memorize the act AND explore different areas to locate the fastest route, now saying this, I don't mean that Sonic games after the classics are devoid of it, however, boost games tend to focus on memorization instead of exploration. As for the Mario physics suggestion, it is valid, I'd say that we saw something like that in Sonic Lost World, Lost World was dull in the characterization of the Zeti and in writing the Dynamic Duo, I don't think they should scrap the parkour gameplay style entirely, it just needs some fine tuning is all. I think they should make use of momentum, not a run button. But that's my take.
 
I think I might have an idea that might make everyone happy. It's not complete, but it's between 50%-75% finished. Just need more ideas.
Moveset:
Homing attack (works like a mix of SA-Sonic's (Hi @Metalwario64 ), and Greeneyes (Hi @SuperPhanto ), with a spash of Neo Sonic (Hi @Chengi .)
Bounce + Stomp (works like SKBean's, but the bounce works like SA2, not stopping momentum whilst going towards the ground)
Doublejump (goes 20% higher than the Lightning Shield)
InstaShield + Dropdash (ok so the Bounce + Stomp is where it would go in Generations, with this going where the Spindash button is in Generations)
Press jump after jumping to do a mix between the Momentum Rebound from UrMom-Entum by @Sebo2205 and the Atom Dash from Alt/Crystal Sonic by @Icezer . I mean this as tapping it will do the normal Momentum Rebound, as in UrMom-Entum, but holding it is where the Atom Dash part comes in, which is also slightly momentum based.
Spindash (yes you can spam it but it works like Alt Sonic's Spindrift (hi @Icezer ))
Lightspeed Attack (ala SA1, but no Lightspeed DASH, remember this later)
Slide (but it acts like the Spin from the Classic Megadrive games, being able to destroy breakable walls too.)
Footsweep Kick (ala Unleashed)
Super Peelout (it's where the Slide button is in Generations)
Crouch (Crouch and forward to Super Peelout, Crouch and Jump to Spindash)
Boost Mode (ya get it, right?)
Mach Speed (it's basically Alt Sonic's Super Dash Mode)
Peelout is the Strike Peel ala Triple Trouble
Stomp has an AOA similar to Patrick's in Battle for Bikini Bottom
Bounce also has an AOA, but it's 50% of that of the Stomp
You would recycle a jump if you fell off a cliff
Shields will give this Sonic new abilities, but they'll also buff his normal abilities (with some exeptions), ala MCAmy/MCTails by https://mb.srb2.org/members/lnferno.8364/
Normal Shield: ...
Lightning Shield: Doublejump is buffed by 75%
Bubble Shield: Bounce is buffed by 80%
Flame Shield: Instashield is replaced by a Flame Thok before you Dropdash
Whirlwind Shield: Doublejump is buffed by 125%, and you gain Slowfall, you also fly for 7.5 seconds
Attraction Shield: Homing attack is buffed by 50%
Force Shield: Doublejump is replaced by an Atom Dash ala Alt Sonic, and you get Force Stop
Elemental Shield: Doublejump is replaced by the Elemental Rise, and the Stomp is replaced by the Elemental Stomp
Armageddon Shield: ... it's the Armageddon Shield what'd you expect?
Ice Shield: Instashield is larger and can freeze enemies, and you can also throw two Ice Blocks at a time that home in on enemies
Laser Shield: protects from any laser weapons and lets you do a dashy move, Spindash + Dropdash are buffed by 125%
Asteroid Shield: draws in rings and other items when you double jump, and destroys them on contact
Spikes Shield: protects you from any spikes (duh), and the double jump extends the spikes for a range attack
Ideas for last 3 provided by @Indigo on Twitter
Lightspeed Dash (remember what I said earlier?): it's mapped to where it would be in Generations. Also, it has the effects of the "Lightspeed Dash to Action button mod for Sonic Adventure DX Steam, which is the insane range.
Parkour (ala Sonic Lost World)
Quickstep/Dodge/whatever the hell ya wanna call it (Mapped to Generations buttons)
Sonic Tornado (it works like Heroes, bu you must have at least 20 rings to perform it. It's button is the Lightspeed Dash button for this Sonic)
Walljump (self explanatory as like some other moves)
The Spindash can be chained into itself by repeatedly spamming it's buttonmap equivalent in Generations
The Bounce can be chained into the Doublejump
The Footsweep Kick can be chained into itself, the Spindash (and consequently, the Lightspeed Attack), and into Parkour if done against a wall (yes I know that this was originally Skid Attack fuck off I CHANGED IT!!!) (also I thought this would have been cool.)
The Bounce can be chained into the Stomp (duh)
The Lightspeed Dash can be chained into any jump ability
Jumping off Springs can also be chained into any jump ability
and dat's my Sanic
Speedster Sonic
for ya. Like it? GOOD.
 
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When you are talking about rebooting/revamping a character's playstyle however, you aren't typically discussing existing level design. You talk about what works, why it works, and how to design levels around it. Some examples of what doesn't work from a level design standpoint could be a part of the discussion, but when the topic at hand is focused primarily on what works about a particular moveset itself, talking about how you personally don't like the level design of the game that the playstyle comes from feels a bit off topic.

Yeah, again I think I'm at fault for this, for not knowing how to portray what I wanted to talk about on the first post, I might change the thread name and put an edit to show, that I did think talking about level design along with Sonic moveset was part of what I wanted to cover on the thread, and I do think that stages from older games have actual issues that might be important to talk about when considering the moveset, and not just mention that I don't like them personally.

Fluidity isn't just how in control you feel over the character, but how well their moveset strings together and how the level design accommodates this movement. While you often can simply just boost forward at top speed, this doesn't change the fact that the fastest path between two points is a straight line, and so taking the time to slow down to take a shorter path can prove beneficial, as can slowing down to avoid crashing full speed into harmful obstacles such as spikes, walls, bottomless pits, projectiles, etc.

Let's take the example of replacing the stomp with the bounce. This would benefit the gameplay flow and sense of speed by allowing Sonic to quickly redirect his momentum downward when the level design calls for it, but then to immediately regain some of that height instead of landing and getting stuck in a short animation before you can move again. From here, you could then do a number of actions from the bounce state; air boost, homing attack, or another bounce. This would comparatively not just give Sonic more utility options after landing, but would give the player the option to resume their speed much faster than if they had landed a stomp. Depending on how the level design accomodates this, the player could even have different options in which direction to boost or homing attack, leading to different pathways that are faster or contain items such as red star rings or 1-ups.

I think I pretty much agree on this in terms of how well the moveset from SA2 gives you more options in comparison with that of the Boost games, but the reason I think it's counterproductive, it's because trying to combine the Boost formula into something different, just creates more issues with what the level design would need to be, the way you described how the level would change if you were to combine them, sounds to me like the levels would slowly turn towards having levels more like the levels from SA/SA2, mostly the good ones, and at that point, I don't see the reason behind using the Boost moveset as a base to begin with.

I find your final point confusing. It sounds like you're talking about largely the same thing I've been discussing myself in regards to tweaking Sonic's moveset in regards to what works and why, such as incorporating elements of SA2 Sonic's moveset into the Boost formula. However, in this same post you seem to be voicing against doing this, regarding it as counterproductive. Is there perhaps a way you could clarify what it is you mean?

In summary, I find it counterproductive because, the Boost formula is already something that, any change that you make to it, would affect the whole level design, and slowly turn it into something entirely different, at which point it might be easier to think of a base moveset from scratch, or work with another base moveset (Like SA2 moveset) that has a better way of expanding and tweaking it's own gameplay style.

At some point I might've realized that I'm not talking about the same thing here, mostly because, while I care about the abilites Sonic has, I care more about how they're implemented in contrast with the level design, so I might be talking more about actual implementation and less about the core abilites. I'm not even sure how to name that exactly, maybe it's the relation between moveset and level design?
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As for the Mario physics suggestion, it is valid, I'd say that we saw something like that in Sonic Lost World, Lost World was dull in the characterization of the Zeti and in writing the Dynamic Duo, I don't think they should scrap the parkour gameplay style entirely, it just needs some fine tuning is all. I think they should make use of momentum, not a run button. But that's my take.
I actually did think the Parkour thing in Lost World was a neat idea, it was just executed very poorly, you barely used it on the levels, and even then it didn't work that great.


While I think this would be a very complete moveset in comparison to what Mario has currently, this just seems like it has every ability Sonic has ever had combined into one whole thing, without considering how all of its abilities would work in an actual level, or how many different inputs it would need to accommodate for the amount of moves it has.
 
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Moveset:
Homing attack (works like a mix of SA-Sonic's (Hi @Metalwario64 ), and Greeneyes (Hi @SuperPhanto ).)
Bounce + Stomp (works like SKBean's, but the bounce works like SA2, not stopping momentum whilst going towards the ground)
Doublejump (goes 20% higher than the Lightning Shield)
InstaShield + Dropdash (ok so the Bounce + Stomp is where it would go in Generations, with this going where the Spindash button is in Generations)
Spindash (yes you can spam it but it works like Alt Sonic's Spindrift (hi @Icezer ))
Lightspeed Attack (ala SA1, but no Lightspeed DASH, remember this later)
Spin (you get it, right?)
Skid Attack (ala Sonic Advance 1)
Super Peelout (it's where the Slide button is in Generations)
Crouch (Crouch and forward to Super Peelout, Crouch and Jump to Spindash)
Boost Mode (ya get it, right?)
Mach Speed (it's basically Alt Sonic's Super Dash Mode)
Peelout is the Strike Peel ala Triple Trouble
Stomp has an AOA similar to Patrick's in Battle for Bikini Bottom
Bounce also has an AOA, but it's 50% of that of the Stomp
You would recycle a jump if you fell off a cliff
Shields will give this Sonic new abilities, but they'll also buff his normal abilities (with some exeptions), ala MCAmy/MCTails by https://mb.srb2.org/members/lnferno.8364/
Normal Shield: ...
Lightning Shield: Doublejump is buffed by 75%
Bubble Shield: Bounce is buffed by 80%
Flame Shield: Instashield is replaced by a Flame Thok before you Dropdash
Whirlwind Shield: Doublejump is buffed by 125%, and you gain Slowfall, you also fly for 7.5 seconds
Attraction Shield: Homing attack is buffed by 50%
Force Shield: Doublejump is replaced by an Atom Dash ala Alt Sonic, and you get Force Stop
Elemental Shield: Doublejump is replaced by the Elemental Rise, and the Stomp is replaced by the Elemental Stomp
Armageddon Shield: ... it's the Armageddon Shield what'd you expect?
Ice Shield: Instashield is larger and can freeze enemies, and you can also throw two Ice Blocks at a time that home in on enemies
Laser Shield: protects from any laser weapons and lets you do a dashy move, Spindash + Dropdash are buffed by 125%
Asteroid Shield: draws in rings and other items when you double jump, and destroys them on contact
Spikes Shield: protects you from any spikes (duh), and the double jump extends the spikes for a range attack
Ideas for last 3 provided by @Indigo on Twitter
Lightspeed Dash (remember what I said earlier?): it's mapped to where it would be in Generations
Parkour (ala Sonic Lost World)
Quickstep/Dodge/whatever the hell ya wanna call it (Mapped to Generations buttons)
Sonic Tornado (it works like Heroes, bu you must have at least 20 rings to perform it. It's button is the Peelout button for this Sonic)
and dat's my Sanic
Speedster Sonic
for ya. Like it? GOOD.
It's an interesting proposition, I agree with Manuel as it is very full, seems tedious to learn it all, that aside, I am team shield box too, it does NOT make sense for wisps to just come back after colors, unless they have a reason why, shields are the way to go, wisps and shields each have their own advantages and disadvantages, (I'm willing to elaborate).

As for the moveset, it boils down to which playstyle you are going to use, all of these abilities have been made with a particular moveset in mind, putting them all together is impractical, an example of this working is Sonic Adventure: Dreams. It's part of the reason why I think a game that wants to give Sonic all these moves should have an option to switch between the Adventure playstyle, Boost playstyle, and perhaps a Combat playstyle.

Adventure:
This playstyle would use:

Homing Attack
Bounce
Double Jump
Light Speed Dash
Boost Mode (couldn't hurt)
Spin Dash
Skid Attack (for ground attack)
Parkour

This would be the main playstyle used throughout the game and for 3d platforming.

Boost

Boost
Quickstep
Stomp
Light Speed Dash
Homing Attack

Remember the Mach Speed sections in Sonic 06? There could be segments or entire levels built around this playstyle and these abilities. It's slightly restricted, but you can go pretty darn fast.

Combat

Sonic Tornado
Light Speed Attack
Skid Attack
Homing Attack
Spin Dash

This moveset can be used when there are hordes of enemies, but particularly for when there is a boss.

Shield

Keep them all in, shields are awesome.

Other

Peelout
Crouch

These abilities strike me as something that should be left for Classic Sonic or for 2d Sonic games.

Excluding the Bosses that can come every 4 acts with enemy hordes every 2 acts, i'd say Boost should be 1 third of the game and Adventure-esque gameplay should be the rest. This is my suggestion.
 
As for the moveset, it boils down to which playstyle you are going to use, all of these abilities have been made with a particular moveset in mind, putting them all together is impractical, an example of this working is Sonic Adventure: Dreams. It's part of the reason why I think a game that wants to give Sonic all these moves should have an option to switch between the Adventure playstyle, Boost playstyle, and perhaps a Combat playstyle.

Excluding the Bosses that can come every 4 acts with enemy hordes every 2 acts, i'd say Boost should be 1 third of the game and Adventure-esque gameplay should be the rest. This is my suggestion.

This seems interesting, like a stage divided in sections, and a gameplay style changing between each section, unless you mean changing style at any time, which would be a bit more complicated considering the stage would have to work no matter what style of gameplay you're using. That being said, I do see something like this working, altough it might need to have tutorials for each gameplay style, and also it might feel a bit limited to stop the player each time the gameplay style has to change (unless you can change on the go).
 
This seems interesting, like a stage divided in sections, and a gameplay style changing between each section, unless you mean changing style at any time, which would be a bit more complicated considering the stage would have to work no matter what style of gameplay you're using. That being said, I do see something like this working, altough it might need to have tutorials for each gameplay style, and also it might feel a bit limited to stop the player each time the gameplay style has to change (unless you can change on the go).
Yeah, but I was thinking the gameplay styles of the stage would change automatically, sort of how the gameplay switched into mach speed in Sonic 06, changing the playstyle manually would be problematic because then you'd be boosting in a platform section, or using the adventure moveset in a combat section, alternatively, there could be a hard mode (since it was it was sort of introduced on Colors with the option to use Tails Save,) in which you as the player get to switch between styles manually. Each stage using the styles would use it substantially, not like Heroes where you swap for a tiny thing then move on, think of how current 3d games switch between 3d and 2d, it could be something like that.
 
Either/or can work for 2D, because it's pretty easy to make 2D games in which complex interactions arise from basic mechanics. Almost everyone knows classic Sonic is rooted in pinball physics, but the first Super Mario Bros. is also largely momentum-driven, which is the source for a lot of its depth.

For 3D it's more common for the core physics components to be scaled down in favor of having a breadth of mechanics. This mainly arises because it's more difficult to make a fun 3D game that is reliant on technical spacial precision, especially if the camera itself poses design challenges for helping the player intuit their character's position in 3D space. This is why Super Mario 64 gives the main character a breadth of moves, while also doing away with some of the mechanical dynamics of 2D Mario games associated with running and jumping. Importantly, things like the triple jump, long jump, and backflip all have very predictable, consistent movement trajectories, so a player who knows which jump they need to perform very rarely has to correct their momentum once the move is executed.

That being said, there's no reason a 2D Sonic with more complex controls couldn't work, it's just a question of what kind of game the designer is trying to create. In my mind, an abandoning of the core momentum formula in favor of a more complex toolkit would work best for 2D action games that revolve less around basic terrain navigation and moreso around reactive gameplay, combat, and obstacles specialized around aspects of the character's moveset.
 
For 3D it's more common for the core physics components to be scaled down in favor of having a breadth of mechanics. This mainly arises because it's more difficult to make a fun 3D game that is reliant on technical spacial precision, especially if the camera itself poses design challenges for helping the player intuit their character's position in 3D space. This is why Super Mario 64 gives the main character a breadth of moves, while also doing away with some of the mechanical dynamics of 2D Mario games associated with running and jumping. Importantly, things like the triple jump, long jump, and backflip all have very predictable, consistent movement trajectories, so a player who knows which jump they need to perform very rarely has to correct their momentum once the move is executed.

The stuff about 3D spatial awareness is important, since it is pretty difficult to perceive position on a 3D space, that said, I think certain games minimize these issues by "cheating" how much precision you actually need, with stuff like, magnetizing objects, sticking to platforms more, upping the hit detection on enemies even when physically it's not actually hitting them. Kirby and the Forgotten Land actually had to deal with this when transitioning to 3D, and I actually believe they handled that pretty cleverly by making attacks hit enemies as long as it "looked" like you hit them, even if the hitbox was off by a certain margin. I believe that, while this might make the game more easy, in retrospect it would make it more accesible and enjoyable on the whole.
 
In summary, I find it counterproductive because, the Boost formula is already something that, any change that you make to it, would affect the whole level design, and slowly turn it into something entirely different, at which point it might be easier to think of a base moveset from scratch, or work with another base moveset (Like SA2 moveset) that has a better way of expanding and tweaking it's own gameplay style.

At some point I might've realized that I'm not talking about the same thing here, mostly because, while I care about the abilites Sonic has, I care more about how they're implemented in contrast with the level design, so I might be talking more about actual implementation and less about the core abilites. I'm not even sure how to name that exactly, maybe it's the relation between moveset and level design?
I'd disagree that the level design changing as a result of a changing moveset is a bad thing. I love all three of the main era's of Sonic gameplay, Classic, Adventure, and Modern/Boost. However, I also recognize that the games featuring these playstyles and level design already exist, and aren't going anywhere just because a new game comes out. Should an alteration to Sonic's moveset provide a sufficient potential to enhance the gameplay experience, I don't feel that SEGA should get cold feet regarding it just because they will have to alter their level design philosophies to accommodate this new moveset. Such a thing serves to give a game it's own identity in contrast to games that came before it, which depending on how it's handled could be wildly successful or a complete failure.

It's because of bold risks like this being taken to begin with however that many of the greatest games of all time were released. Every game that releases like this isn't necessarily going to become one of the greats, but nonetheless if proper care has been taken to produce as refined and enjoyable an experience as possible then companies such as SEGA should have confidence in their products.
 
I, personally, see an ideal Sonic moveset as being able to use the environment to their full advantage in order to gain momentum and maintain flow. This doesn't have to be complex, but it can also work really well in a complex manner. You could have just Sonic 1's moveset, which does this well for 2D, or you could have an Odessey-esque Sonic moveset that allows you to use pretty much every piece of the level to your advantage, aka what I've been trying to do this whole time.
 

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