Add-on Ratings changes

[PlatterTheFinch]

This is a very extreme change to make just so certain incompetent addon makers can feel better about themselves. Next they're gonna remove reviews entirely, then remove the discussion tab, then remove the creation of threads as a whole. When you baby-proof the whole website, it becomes less of a community and more of an echo chamber.

 

[Wumbo]

This is a very extreme change to make just so certain incompetent addon makers can feel better about themselves. Next they're gonna remove reviews entirely, then remove the discussion tab, then remove the creation of threads as a whole. When you baby-proof the whole website, it becomes less of a community and more of an echo chamber.

I personally can't see the discussion tab or threads ever being removed (I'd expect the Message Board as a whole to be shut down before that ever happens). But I do agree that the MB staff as of late have been overly accommodative - almost to the point of obsession - towards a minority of modders who lack the maturity (not necessarily competence) to handle criticism that's reflected in numbers or in writing that isn't littered with euphemisms and positive affirmations. Consequently they're shielding these less mature modders from hearing what they need to hear the most, while also making it harder for modders that want criticism to receive and interpret it.

 

[Whoexer9]

I personally can't see the discussion tab or threads ever being removed (I'd expect the Message Board as a whole to be shut down before that ever happens). But I do agree that the MB staff as of late have been overly accommodative - almost to the point of obsession - towards a minority of modders who lack the maturity to handle criticism that's reflected in numbers or in writing that isn't littered with euphemisms and positive affirmations. Consequently they're shielding these less mature modders from hearing what they need to hear the most, while also making it harder for modders that want criticism to receive and interpret it.

If the Message Board get shut down, then how are we going to share addons?

 

[*GOOFYRAT!*]

If the Message Board get shut down, then how are we going to share addons?

Simple. You won't be able to. Hence why they call it "shutting down".

 

[ChaseSP]

This is a very extreme change to make just so certain incompetent addon makers can feel better about themselves. Next they're gonna remove reviews entirely, then remove the discussion tab, then remove the creation of threads as a whole. When you baby-proof the whole website, it becomes less of a community and more of an echo chamber.

These changes were not intended to try and shelter people from criticism in some odd form of placating like them you are stating, it's us trying to directly encourage people to give earnest reviews instead of "This is great 5 stars" "This is bad 1 star".

We want people to give out actual tangible advice and this was exactly why we decided stars should be dropped because of how little value they seriously are as apart of giving feedback in the first place. People who are willing to share their art deserve actual feedback, not people driving by saying an addon sucks and giving it 1 stars, unless all you really want to do is to tell someone their work is shit without actually giving any proper feedback in the first place.

That you think the only real reason for the change is to "protect" people from negative reviews says more about how you think they should be treated than anything in my own view, especially with resorting to an absurdist argument of this leading to removing reviews and so on which I can only hope is an absurd form of humor.

 

[Bandder]

We want people to give out actual tangible advice and this was exactly why we decided stars should be dropped because of how little value they seriously are as apart of giving feedback in the first place. People who are willing to share their art deserve actual feedback, not people driving by saying an addon sucks and giving it 1 stars, unless all you really want to do is to tell someone their work is shit without actually giving any proper feedback in the first place.

if the problem really is just people saying "your addon sucks" and 1 star with no actual feedback, then just delete the review and keep up those and that give 1 star AND actual feedback

 

[Wumbo]

We want people to give out actual tangible advice and this was exactly why we decided stars should be dropped because of how little value they seriously are as apart of giving feedback in the first place. People who are willing to share their art deserve actual feedback, not people driving by saying an addon sucks and giving it 1 stars, unless all you really want to do is to tell someone their work is shit without actually giving any proper feedback in the first place.

But the issue of low-quality reviews is already solved by raising the minimum character limit, so the star removal seems redundant.

 

[Othius]

Reviews only exist as they do because Xenforo kinda fucking sucks sometimes, and forces them upon addons anyway. For anyone around years back, VBulletin had ONLY a discussions tab, yet it was an infinitely better place for proper discussion on a mod. Better criticism, better praise, better engagement. Quick one-liner twitter-type reviews sucked all the energy away from properly engaged feedback in discussion tabs, ESPECIALLY since the discussion tab is behind a click, unlike how it was on VBulletin, and reviews, which, by lack of a reply button, shut down any further conversation, are displayed front and center.

Don't believe me? Take a look at any early 2.2 and 2.1 modding thread and you'll immediately uncover a large breadth of in-depth discussion. Check a recent 2.2 discussion tab and it's super likely it's just fucking dead.

The community has only skyrocketed in size since then, so you can't claim there are just less people around- the core issue is that the systems in place no longer incentivize people to discuss and engage with mods on any deeper level anymore- be it praise, criticism, or other.

 

[PlatterTheFinch]

We want people to give out actual tangible advice and this was exactly why we decided stars should be dropped because of how little value they seriously are as apart of giving feedback in the first place. People who are willing to share their art deserve actual feedback, not people driving by saying an addon sucks and giving it 1 stars, unless all you really want to do is to tell someone their work is shit without actually giving any proper feedback in the first place.

What Wumbo said. The character limit forces people to actually think about what they want to commentate on in their review, which is the problem you're trying to solve. Removing stars is just a step backwards; it prevents the mod creator and user(s) from seeing the quality of a particular mod at a glance, which again, is the whole point of reviews.

 

[*GOOFYRAT!*]

What Wumbo said. The character limit forces people to actually think about what they want to commentate on in their review, which is the problem you're trying to solve. Removing stars is just a step backwards; it prevents the mod creator and user(s) from seeing the quality of a particular mod at a glance, which again, is the whole point of reviews.

That's actually very wrong. Recently, I saw a review have "I don't know what to put here cuz of the new 100 character limit".

 

[Bandder]

i guess i would also like to point out that basically everyone who is opposed to this change are modders, and everyone who says this change is good have NOT made any mods. now, thats not to say that these people are never gonna make a mod, maybe they are working on it right now, who knows, and im also not saying that their opinion is invalid.

but you should really listen more to the people who have contributed mods to this community, and are actually affected by this change (the modders, who are mostly saying that this change is bad), as opposed to the people who are just saying "the change is good" just because they look up to you and therefore automatically agree with you

if a modder said "oh this change is good" i still wouldn't agree with them but i would be willing to respect their opinion due to the fact they actually had experience with when the stars were here as opposed to some person i have literally never heard of, has never made a mod, and probably will never make a mod

you should be caring about what the people who use up their free time to provide content for this website, and what THEY have to say, and not random people who will never have the words "Welcome to Releases!" said to them.

Reviews only exist as they do because Xenforo kinda fucking sucks sometimes, and forces them upon addons anyway. For anyone around years back, VBulletin had ONLY a discussions tab, yet it was an infinitely better place for proper discussion on a mod. Better criticism, better praise, better engagement. Quick one-liner twitter-type reviews sucked all the energy away from properly engaged feedback in discussion tabs, ESPECIALLY since the discussion tab is behind a click, unlike how it was on VBulletin, and reviews, which, by lack of a reply button, shut down any further conversation, are displayed front and center.

ok question, if you were able to, would you remove reviews entirely?

Post automatically merged: Nov 11, 2024

That's actually very wrong. Recently, I saw a review have "I don't know what to put here cuz of the new 100 character limit".

bump it up to 500 characters then

 

[PlatterTheFinch]

That's actually very wrong. Recently, I saw a review have "I don't know what to put here cuz of the new 100 character limit".

Well, that's just one review. Again, removal of stars doesn't really contribute to or take away from the effect this message has.

 

[*GOOFYRAT!*]

bump it up to 500 characters then

Lmao. Gonna write a novel up in here.
Not to say I haven't had any experience at all, but I've only made a color mod, so I dunno where I stand at that point.

Well, that's just one review. Again, removal of stars doesn't really contribute to or take away from the effect this message has.

I understand that. But, you never know. This could somehow domino effect if we're not careful.

 

[Bartz]

but you should really listen more to the people who have contributed mods to this community, and are actually affected by this change (the modders, who are mostly saying that this change is bad), as opposed to the people who are just saying "the change is good" just because they look up to you and therefore automatically agree with you

I agree with this statement.


Modders are basically the reason why this game has gained so much traction in the first place, so I do feel as if their opinion have more priority when it comes to features that can impact the how mods are rated in a major way vs a non modder as myself.

 

[*GOOFYRAT!*]

I agree with this statement.


Modders are basically the reason why this game has gained so much traction in the first place, so I do feel as if their opinion have more priority when it comes to features that can impact the how mods are rated in a major way vs a non modder as myself.

Now, I wouldn't go that far.
While they ARE probably the most value, the fact the mods are in this means there's no real way to get your way unless they say so. Kinda sucks, but it's a message board, and they're the reason the mods CAN be uploaded, sooo...
I'm kinda in the middle here. :P

 

[Bartz]

While they ARE probably the most value, the fact the mods are in this means there's no real way to get your way unless they say so. Kinda sucks, but it's a message board, and they're the reason the mods CAN be uploaded, sooo...

I probably worded that poorly, I just meant priority over people who don't make mods. I am well aware that the admins have full power of what does and doesn't happen and no amount of modding skill could ever take that away

 

[Wumbo]

Reviews only exist as they do because Xenforo kinda fucking sucks sometimes, and forces them upon addons anyway. For anyone around years back, VBulletin had ONLY a discussions tab, yet it was an infinitely better place for proper discussion on a mod. Better criticism, better praise, better engagement. Quick one-liner twitter-type reviews sucked all the energy away from properly engaged feedback in discussion tabs, ESPECIALLY since the discussion tab is behind a click, unlike how it was on VBulletin, and reviews, which, by lack of a reply button, shut down any further conversation, are displayed front and center.

Don't believe me? Take a look at any early 2.2 and 2.1 modding thread and you'll immediately uncover a large breadth of in-depth discussion. Check a recent 2.2 discussion tab and it's super likely it's just fucking dead.

The community has only skyrocketed in size since then, so you can't claim there are just less people around- the core issue is that the systems in place no longer incentivize people to discuss and engage with mods on any deeper level anymore- be it praise, criticism, or other.

I appreciate your perspective, and I do feel like modding discourse was a bit more fruitful back during the vBulletin days when there was no dedicated Reviews tab. That being said, I still think there's some merit in having the Reviews tab, if only to provide a dedicated space for reviews and to make them feel valuable (even if the implementation is a bit shoddy).

But with the removal of star ratings, the Reviews tab is essentially just an inferior Discussion tab.

 

[Othius]

ok question, if you were able to, would you remove reviews entirely?

Unironically yes.

Everything that a review can do can be done within a discussion thread. Discussion threads also opens up the chance for a proper dialogue, formatting, embedded imaging, and just general expression. Review pages which consist of [one unformatted review] followed [one available reply which only the author can write], and then that line of conversation is forced shut arestraight up infuriating when there's a forum system that exists and solves all these problems, yet is comparitively hidden.

This isn't my call to make, of course, but that's just my spicy hot take.

 

[*GOOFYRAT!*]

Unironically yes.

Everything that a review can do can be done within a discussion thread. Discussion threads also opens up the chance for a proper dialogue, formatting, embedded imaging, and just general expression. Review pages which consist of [one unformatted review] followed [one available reply which only the author can write], and then that line of conversation is forced shut arestraight up infuriating when there's a forum system that exists and solves all these problems, yet is comparitively hidden.

This isn't my call to make, of course, but that's just my spicy hot take.

Buuuuuut, wouldn't that let them say "bad, one star"? Or sum shit like that?

 

[Pikaspoop]

i guess i would also like to point out that basically everyone who is opposed to this change are modders, and everyone who says this change is good have NOT made any mods. now, thats not to say that these people are never gonna make a mod, maybe they are working on it right now, who knows, and im also not saying that their opinion is invalid.

Bullshit, I've coded Mach, contributed to Tag Team Racing, made TagUtilities, and so many smaller addons for my multiple netgame servers. The staff themselves have also made some of the most recognizable addons in this community.
You do not get to say that only non-creators are with this change. this is very disingenuous.

This is a very extreme change to make just so certain incompetent addon makers can feel better about themselves.

Why are you looking down on creators? This is just incredibly rude.
In fact, this is a big reason we're removing the stars to begin with. We don't want elitism or bullying to occur on this site. The fact that creators are being identified as "lower" or "bad" due to the star system is proof that it should have been removed a long time ago.

But I do agree that the MB staff as of late have been overly accommodative - almost to the point of obsession - towards a minority of modders who lack the maturity (not necessarily competence) to handle criticism that's reflected in numbers or in writing that isn't littered with euphemisms and positive affirmations. Consequently they're shielding these less mature modders from hearing what they need to hear the most, while also making it harder for modders that want criticism to receive and interpret it.

No, we are not. You can still portray all of this in text. We are simply removing the 1 - 5 star rating and average of stars.
You can still give numerical ratings in text, I have said this before. Any arguments about "staff not wanting creators to see criticism" is immediately invalidated by simply speaking your mind in the review. :P

What Wumbo said. The character limit forces people to actually think about what they want to commentate on in their review, which is the problem you're trying to solve. Removing stars is just a step backwards; it prevents the mod creator and user(s) from seeing the quality of a particular mod at a glance, which again, is the whole point of reviews.

I feel like this idea that stars equate to a view of quality has been said a lot, yet hasn't addressed some of the counter points to it.
Addons will have gifs and screenshots showcasing the overall gameplay of the addon, and that alone can help a person determine quality. If a user wants to look deeper, the reviews are still there.
We have so many other methods to determine quality, so users are not prevented from seeing the quality of an addon at a glance.

but you should really listen more to the people who have contributed mods to this community, and are actually affected by this change (the modders, who are mostly saying that this change is bad), as opposed to the people who are just saying "the change is good" just because they look up to you and therefore automatically agree with you

Staff have all been community members and modders in the past, and other modders have posted in this thread both agreeing and disagreeing with us.
We will and have been listening to modders, but we won't sit on the fence for every issue. We'll do what we see as being the most beneficial for the community.





After all of this discourse, I have the distinct feeling that people are actually afraid of the potential clout that they may lose from this change. The loss of a metric you can use to show other how "good" you are at making mods, or how cool you are in the community.
This forum is meant to be a place to share your work, collaborate, communicate, and have fun. This is not about earning brownie points or climbing some social ladder here.
Reviews are still going to allow users to share feedback with creators, you can still give numerical ratings in text, and reviews will always have a place here (not all discussions will be about improving addons after all). We just don't want an average of the ratings to be so pronounced on the face of every addon, as we've had issues with review bombing and unhelpful reviews reflecting an incorrect view of the work.

Gonna be real, that "incompetent" comment really set me off. You should not be referring to other users that way.