Wooile Vs. SRB2

[Knightofchao08]

Former Super Best Friend and lord of Castle Super Beast Wooile has hosted two streams showcasing SRB2 from start to finish. In addition he also talks about SRB2 in his CSB podcast. Check them out here at about the 2 hours 20 minute mark, https://www.twitch.tv/videos/561362844 here at the 19 minute mark, https://www.twitch.tv/videos/562350203 And on Castle Super Beast episode 059 at the 118:20 minute mark. The stream is the second time playing the game and the first time playing as Sonic. I know the devs are always looking for newbe's playing the so come check it out.

 

[Krabs]

Love WoolieVS and CSB, so this was a great surprise. I'm glad he enjoyed the game and exposed it to so many people. I gotta say, though, playthroughs like these expose problems with the game incredibly easily. It's kind of frustrating how lots of new players completely miss the Simple controls option, and once they learn that it exists, they are already used to the standard, gamepad-unfriendly controls. And it's quite telling how almost every complicated platforming segment was skipped over via tails...

 

[Unknownlight]

And it's quite telling how almost every complicated platforming segment was skipped over via tails...

That's not necessarily a bad thing. SRB2 is a really hard game to get into—it takes multiple playthroughs just to get somewhat competent at it. It doesn't fix the deeper problem (if it even is a problem, which is debatable), but Tails is a good band-aid solution for keeping players engaged for long enough to slowly learn how to play properly.

(Also, I personally think Woolie would have done even worse at the precise platforming had he been using Simple controls. That control scheme is good for convincing people who otherwise wouldn't have given the game a chance, but the Standard gamepad controls are fine for someone who's already invested.)

 

[Rob]

And it's quite telling how almost every complicated platforming segment was skipped over via tails...

That part is actually an issue with people trying to figure out a way around the problem instead of how to work through the problem. This is an issue with how people approach the game. The mentality is "If I can just cheese the challenge, why bother?". I've always been iffy on Sonic & Tails working like this for this reason, it encourages people to not play the stages properly. Though I'm slowly changing my mind to "We don't do enough to punish people for trying to cheese sections of platforming" and I suspect we need more aerial enemies to act as area denial for big open areas we don't intend on people being able to use to skip massive chunks of challenges and levels.

 

[cookiefonster]

That part is actually an issue with people trying to figure out a way around the problem instead of how to work through the problem. This is an issue with how people approach the game. The mentality is "If I can just cheese the challenge, why bother?". I've always been iffy on Sonic & Tails working like this for this reason, it encourages people to not play the stages properly. Though I'm slowly changing my mind to "We don't do enough to punish people for trying to cheese sections of platforming" and I suspect we need more aerial enemies to act as area denial for big open areas we don't intend on people being able to use to skip massive chunks of challenges and levels.

This sort of thing is a fitting disadvantage to skipping areas playing as Fang, the way I see it. If you carelessly bounce your way around certain zones, chances are you'll get hit by a flying enemy you didn't see coming because Fang can't spin. More of this would definitely be a good way to add challenge to the game.

 

[Krabs]

Enemies that patrol the air are a good idea, but put a seriously heavy burden on map designers to space them out properly. Frankly, I think tails's flight duration is just too long.

That, and I'd say the difficulty curve is a little steep after the first 3 zones, which leads to the "skip everything" mentality.

 

[Frostav]

Nah, Deep Sea is when the difficulty spikes. People already hate 2D Sonic water levels, 3D is gonna be hell.


Then CEZ spikes super hard again. SRB2 is just an extremely difficult game. 3D platformers are almost universally open-ended collectathons or at least have big platforms and slower platforming, SRB2 is basically the only 3D platformer that's designed like a 2D one.

 

[Moose the Fat Cat]

I think Deep Sea is a bit harder than CEZ, or at least the deaths feel more painful when it's drowning as opposed to spikes. I think it'd make a bit more sense for CEZ to get the third spot as it is also the most unique level in the game; there aren't many castle themed Sonic levels and this stage is massive and really teaches platforming in a great way. I think CEZ prepares you better for DSZ than DSZ prepares you for CEZ, but maybe that's just me.

Re: cheesing

I think I am more likely to get better at the game and want to replay it and then get more into the more difficult characters if there's the option to cheese it.

Cheese is part of Sonic's DNA... he's sort of the ultimate "hold right and press a, look at the cool stuff you just did"

SRB2 could benefit from having an easy mode as Sonic. I just made the case in the Suggestions thread so I won't do it here but basically just have the Modern abilities as a toggle from Thokk / Classic. Homing and double jump alone, with or without boost/slide, makes the game so much easier to navigate and cheese... to a point where it feels like the game was built for him and his abilities. He can access almost any part of the map, especially with the walljump too.

Because it's so easy, it's fun to just enjoy the visceral thrill of maintaining that speed and momentum, but it becomes so easy that it then pushes or invites the player/me / to try again with Classic Solo... and suddenly with the training wheels off, I'm actually better at landing jumps and navigating corners than I was before.

In this case I would say I learned the game better by being led with the carrot instead of the stick.

Sonic & Tails were my first completion, then Knuckles. I'm enjoying campaigns with everybody but having the most fun replaying and cheesing the maps as Modern. I've never enjoyed playing as Modern in any of the other titles, tbh, but with the map/physics of SRB2 it feels **great** to zoom around as over-powered modern Sonic. It's a coincidence in how it happened I suppose but it's magic how this particular moveset feels like it and this game were made with each other in mind the whole time.

 

[fickleheart]

I am absolutely biased when I say this: simple controls should be presented front-and-center as an alternative. I don't think the playstyle menu should be used as-is for this (at the very least, "Legacy" should be hidden on any automatic showings of that screen, to say nothing of the need to rename that mode) but having a good way to present the difference in KB+M-focused controls and gamepad-focused controls would probably help people getting into the game a lot. The presentation for simple controls was definitely not something I poured tons of care into.


I disagree wholeheartedly that the platforming would be any harder to get into with simple controls. I think most people who say this are people who have used the standard controls for years if not decades, have already mastered the learning curve they can have, and might also be letting bad experience with the old analog mode taint their opinion of other control schemes. For someone new at the game, getting over that learning curve might take as much time as, if not longer than, learning the physics on simple controls. Especially if they aren't using mouse and keyboard.


I'm slowly starting to think that directionchar on the standard controls might not be a great idea. It adds confusion between the character's facing direction and their acting direction, and I'm not sure showing the character's direction of movement in the way it does is that useful for demonstrating how strafing works? The problem before seemed to have more to do with default binds and strafing not being properly labeled as a control, both of which have been fixed.


I don't really see a problem with being able to use Tails to cheese level sections that the player is struggling with. Giving the player the option to just move on from a platforming section is useful for keeping them interested in continuing. If seeing a newer player use Tails excessively is an indictment of anything, it's of the difficulty of the game, that might be a bit too much toward the end if the goal is for new players to beat it. I don't think it's a huge problem, though, especially since Tails already gives the player a way to move on if they're getting stuck on something.


All that said, though. I didn't watch much of Woolie's playthrough, but from what I saw there didn't seem to be any big problems playing the game? It's a huge demonstration of the strides 2.2 made in accessibility, especially autobrake, which I think everyone should just leave on and could eventually even be forced. (More options aren't always a good thing, right? Autobrake off is a HUGE potential footgun for new players.)

 

[Rob]

I am absolutely biased when I say this: simple controls should be presented front-and-center as an alternative. I don't think the playstyle menu should be used as-is for this (at the very least, "Legacy" should be hidden on any automatic showings of that screen, to say nothing of the need to rename that mode) but having a good way to present the difference in KB+M-focused controls and gamepad-focused controls would probably help people getting into the game a lot. The presentation for simple controls was definitely not something I poured tons of care into.

There's a simpler solution to this. On first time boot, ask the player if they're using Keyboard/Keyboard & Mouse, or Gamepad, and set & default the controls to that and let the player know that it can be changed in the options menu in the future. This would also solve the problem of the tutorial defaulting to Keyboard & Mouse, when (once we get graphics all set up) we want to be able to discern between K&M and Gamepad tutorials.

I'm slowly starting to think that directionchar on the standard controls might not be a great idea. It adds confusion between the character's facing direction and their acting direction, and I'm not sure showing the character's direction of movement in the way it does is that useful for demonstrating how strafing works? The problem before seemed to have more to do with default binds and strafing not being properly labeled as a control, both of which have been fixed.

This is quite possibly the case. We're seeing more people struggle with this than I expected. During testing, I would give copies of the game to people to test and they didn't really seem to have issues with the controls once they realized that camera direction is the important thing and not facing direction. Ironically, I had far more issues with this than the people I'd have test 2.2, despite that the game functions identically to the old style controls. I didn't expect it to be the case that it would cause so many issues with lots of people because, in my experience, my issues with it were the outlier and not having issues with it seemed to be the norm.

I don't really see a problem with being able to use Tails to cheese level sections that the player is struggling with. Giving the player the option to just move on from a platforming section is useful for keeping them interested in continuing. If seeing a newer player use Tails excessively is an indictment of anything, it's of the difficulty of the game, that might be a bit too much toward the end if the goal is for new players to beat it. I don't think it's a huge problem, though, especially since Tails already gives the player a way to move on if they're getting stuck on something.

This goes back to 2.2 testing, where the people I'd see using Tails would routinely just think "I can skip this" and then get lost, have no sense of direction, and not understand how challenges worked. Conversely, playing Sonic, there was usually a sense of "I recognize this, I was here before" if for some reason the player started moving backwards. This was well before S&T's implementation, and now that S&T works the way it does, I've noticed this problem now occurring when playing as S&T. It's just a bad experience once a player gets lost. Flying over and around obstacles and landing somewhere you've not seen before and didn't get to by following the stage flow confuses a lot of players and they don't seem to know where to go once they land.

It's a huge demonstration of the strides 2.2 made in accessibility, especially autobrake, which I think everyone should just leave on and could eventually even be forced. (More options aren't always a good thing, right? Autobrake off is a HUGE potential footgun for new players.)

So I've been adamantly trying to get people to move away from the mentality of "More options == good" (Especially given the whole "Leave analog in! More options are always good for the players!" reaction which was utterly nonsensical) but in this case I think the option is correct. Autobrake isn't a natural extension of the physics of the game. The game is forcing a specific input on players, almost analogous to a form of training wheels. Autobrake is actually a huge issue for precision platforming and takes away a lot of finer control you have over your momentum. Turning off autobrake is basically equivalent to taking off the training wheels, and I think it would be a mistake to force it on all the time.

 

[Moose the Fat Cat]

I've never turned autobrake off, although I guess now I'm curious.

I'm on 2.2.0, but I play with gamepad and directionchar now, though I played with directioncam for most of the beginning hours. But I wanted to see the front of the sprite! Then I found out about analog and tried that and it seemed good at first, but it was too sloppy and limited. Finally I realized there was an option in the menu to just set "movement direction" to "character" and I realized that's what I wanted. The controls move in the direction I'd expect, and when I turn the left stick down, the character turns to face the camera. Great.

I got lost so often on some of my first playthroughs. There's one part in Techno Hill Act 2 that would send me in circles... it's the part where if you turn right you'll see the Egg Corp red building, and from there to the left is the corridor to continue.

But if you're coming from the path I'm talking about, and I'll try to supply visual reference if this isn't clear enough, you have to turn right.

And so much of the level design seems to push the player to make left turns. Which is a bit counterintuitive at first, since generally it feels like games push you to the right. But you get used to it, and so I would keep somehow missing that all I needed to do was turn right at that spot... instead I'd wind up going in a circle, eventually back to the big goo waterfall room and being like, HOW did I get back here?!

So, how to solve? Dropping arrows all over a map feels cheap, but maybe there could be more subtle cues to point the player where they should be going. Maybe there could be a "main path" that looks paved like a trail, or like, track lights.

I saw someone make the suggestion of including a compass in the HUD (on as default, toggle in menu) that points the player toward the goal. I think something like that -- something visual -- would help a lot.

 

[Dabir]

Why would I turn autobrake off? If I want to keep going in a direction, I'll keep inputting in that direction. And as for the control setups, IMO simple is best for gamepad, legacy is best for KB+M, standard is a compromise that suits nothing. It's a damn shame that Woolie started with standard (and that whoever tried to tell him about simple in his twitch chat made him think it had no camera control) cause he's absolutely the kind of guy to get married to the first thing he tries.

 

[Unknownlight]

Why would I turn autobrake off? If I want to keep going in a direction, I'll keep inputting in that direction.

When in mid-air, the forward and back buttons act more like "accelerate" and "break" buttons. If you don't notice it normally, the problems with auto-brake are easy to see in the low-gravity rooms in Egg Rock where you have to make long jumps.

Normally, you push forward until you reach the right speed, then you let go of forward to keep moving in that direction at the speed. But if auto-brake is on, you stop when you let go of forward. But you can't just hold forward continuously because you'll overshoot your jump. So instead of a nice, smooth, controlled jump, you have to awkwardly tap forward multiple times in midair, jerking back and forth between braking and accelerating.

 

[clairebun]

That part is actually an issue with people trying to figure out a way around the problem instead of how to work through the problem. This is an issue with how people approach the game. The mentality is "If I can just cheese the challenge, why bother?". I've always been iffy on Sonic & Tails working like this for this reason, it encourages people to not play the stages properly. Though I'm slowly changing my mind to "We don't do enough to punish people for trying to cheese sections of platforming" and I suspect we need more aerial enemies to act as area denial for big open areas we don't intend on people being able to use to skip massive chunks of challenges and levels.

I was aware that this would be an issue when drafting the AI flight ability.

While there is the obvious appeal of being able to explore areas not always accessible to Sonic solo, Sonic & Tails is necessary for us for two reasons:

1) Sonic is too difficult. This is not a secret, but players using call flight so frequently is a testament to the player's lack of faith in Sonic's platforming ability. It highlights the fact that Sonic himself needs to be changed so that he is less exposed during tight platforming segments.
2) We've been completely ignoring Tails' presence throughout the majority of the campaign's design, and this results in the levels being unengaging for him but also more confusing for players using him. Sonic & Tails forces us to take Tails into greater consideration and standardizing better level design practices.

 

[Dabir]

When in mid-air, the forward and back buttons act more like "accelerate" and "break" buttons. If you don't notice it normally, the problems with auto-brake are easy to see in the low-gravity rooms in Egg Rock where you have to make long jumps.

Normally, you push forward until you reach the right speed, then you let go of forward to keep moving in that direction at the speed. But if auto-brake is on, you stop when you let go of forward. But you can't just hold forward continuously because you'll overshoot your jump. So instead of a nice, smooth, controlled jump, you have to awkwardly tap forward multiple times in midair, jerking back and forth between braking and accelerating.

I play on simple with a gamepad and I can't say it's come up. But I suppose I'll give it a try.

 

[Mystic]

Basically, with auto-brake on, you have two levels of movement: holding forward and released (which holds back for you to brake). With auto-brake off, you have three: holding forward, holding back (brake), and released (which coasts forward like releasing both pedals in a car). You get an additional control option with auto-brake off.


We just know that this additional control option doesn't do new players much good when they don't remember to hold back to slow down, hence auto-brake by default. If you practice with auto-brake off, though, you do get more control options.

 

[fickleheart]

You usually don't want a smooth arc when you're trying to land on a tight platform anyway! Usually you want to slow down toward the end of your jump in those cases so you land with less speed and are less likely to slide right off the platform. Autobrake makes doing so way easier since you can just let go of the movement keys instead of having to pull backward. I don't understand the notion that autobrake off is somehow inherently better for high-level play when every top time attack IL I've seen so far has it on.

 

[Mystic]

That's because time attack is the situation where the difference matters the least.

Let's go back to my car analogy: if you're a perfect person on a closed race track, what's optimal for going as fast as possible? You should always be accelerating out of a curve onto a straightaway, and then immediately switch to braking into the next turn to slow down just enough to make the turn, then immediately switch back to flooring the accelerator once more. When optimizing for time and assuming perfect reflexes, the positions between "floor the accelerator" and "floor the brake" don't matter. Optimal time attacks in SRB2 are very similar because people reset whenever they mess up at all, setting up a run where they get as close to perfect reflexes as possible.

How about you and I driving on the street, though? Personally, when I drive around town, I'm not optimizing for speed; I'm optimizing for safety. I don't want to risk messing up and crashing my vehicle, so when I approach a red traffic light I often release both the accelerator and the brake to coast forward, slowing down through the use of friction before applying the brake more and more as I get closer until I stop. It's very rare to actually press the accelerator or brake to the floor at all.

Disabling the auto-brake in SRB2 allows you to "put Sonic in neutral", so to say. You coast forward from momentum, slowing down due to friction on the ground. This is not generally useful for time attack because you don't want to slow down a little, but if you're trying to take something you're approaching a little slower for safety, it's incredibly useful. This is what allows SRB2's digital movement options to handle situations that traditionally are only handled by analog sticks in 3D platformers.

Is this feature necessary to play SRB2 at a high skill level? No, it's not. There's a reason I was a big proponent of creating auto-brake and including it as the default vanilla option. I know that many players will be just fine with automatic braking on and it takes a bit to get used to disabling it, meaning it's something we shouldn't frontload with everything else SRB2 does differently. However, manual braking is a powerful tool for any player willing to take the time to get used to it, allowing for extra levels of control that auto-brake disables by design.

 

[Dabir]

That's fair. I've tried turning it off myself now and haven't really noticed a difference other than no skidding when I stop on ground so I'll probably leave it off.

 

[clairebun]

I do find the fact of the current speedrunning meta to revolve around autobrake on is somewhat fascinating. It seems to suggest that the degree of control that autobrake off potentially provides is not significant compared to the ease of use with autobrake off, at least for speedrunners' case. It appears to me that the divide has less to do with skilled vs unskilled than it does with experience vs new exposure.

Not trying to make a point or anything, just found that to be an interesting observation.