What's every ones's opinion on the sonic adventure games?
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shadow unleashed
Member
la primera aventura de sonic fue muy buena para su mundo abierto y sonic adventure 2 para muchos carece de un mundo abierto para mi ambos son juegos excelentes
On the whole they're flawed but generally okay. I've always had a more positive opinion of SA1 than its sequel though. I don't like how SA2 forced each character and their shooting, speed, and hunting game mechanics into the same storyline. It did introduce some good mechanics into the speed gameplay, particularly grinding and a more streamlined lightspeed dash, but for as many improvements as it introduced to the speed gameplay, it created just as many problems in the other two; treasure hunting is unnecessarily made linear for padding, shooting feels clunkier due to larger character models, and the levels are all generally more streamlined but less memorable (minus City Escape and Pumpkin Hill). None of the bugs were fixed, so no points there.
SA2 removing the hub world was probably for the better, but I honestly never had a huge problem with the hub world. It's also a part of what gives SA1 its personality relative to the sequel -- its RPG relics are bleeding out of every aspect of the final product, and it results in a Sonic game that has stronger world-building than most others.
SA1 I think succeeds over other Sonic games in its ability to tell a story. It's incredibly average in terms of gameplay, and I think the same applies to its sequel.
Chao Garden still has sort of a mystical quality to it, part of that is nostalgia but I also think it's structurally interesting; I've always loved the evolution aspect of it, and how different combinations lead to countless different visual transformations. The system itself is not particularly enjoyable due to the heavy amount of grinding, but a more streamlined recreation of this game mode with online features could honestly be pretty neat.
SA2 removing the hub world was probably for the better, but I honestly never had a huge problem with the hub world. It's also a part of what gives SA1 its personality relative to the sequel -- its RPG relics are bleeding out of every aspect of the final product, and it results in a Sonic game that has stronger world-building than most others.
SA1 I think succeeds over other Sonic games in its ability to tell a story. It's incredibly average in terms of gameplay, and I think the same applies to its sequel.
Chao Garden still has sort of a mystical quality to it, part of that is nostalgia but I also think it's structurally interesting; I've always loved the evolution aspect of it, and how different combinations lead to countless different visual transformations. The system itself is not particularly enjoyable due to the heavy amount of grinding, but a more streamlined recreation of this game mode with online features could honestly be pretty neat.
Xj11
Member
I agree with all of this.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
Sonic Adventure is fantastic for it's time, and if you can get over some janky cutscene animations and questionable direction in the voice acting it still holds up today. The original dreamcast release of the game is the least buggy, but bugs aside the game has what I still feel is the best Sonic gameplay to date, with a very high, satisfying skill ceiling that comes with a lot of freedom in how you progress through stages, and how quickly. Speed is earned through skill, and through skill comes the ability to break the level design in half. The alternative gameplay styles aren't as fun, but there's none of them, even Big, that I outright hate and I still consider all of them to be fun in their own way.
Adventure 2 is also still very fantastic, though it does come with it's own share of problems as well. It set Sonic's gameplay on the path of being more linear than it was before, and with it went away a lot of the freedom to use the physics to your advantage to progress how you wanted to. Nonetheless, it's still a lot of fun. The Knuckles gameplay got better in terms of level design, but got worse in regards to the radar that helps you find the emerald shards. The Gamma (Now Tails and Eggman) style gameplay also returns, and I feel is a direct improvement over the first game, with the time limits removed and Eggman himself finally being playable.
I heavily recommend the Steam versions of both games if you are looking to get the most out of them, strictly because of the modding community. Do keep in mind however the Steam port of SA2 is a little unstable, so you might experience crashes on occasion.
Adventure 2 is also still very fantastic, though it does come with it's own share of problems as well. It set Sonic's gameplay on the path of being more linear than it was before, and with it went away a lot of the freedom to use the physics to your advantage to progress how you wanted to. Nonetheless, it's still a lot of fun. The Knuckles gameplay got better in terms of level design, but got worse in regards to the radar that helps you find the emerald shards. The Gamma (Now Tails and Eggman) style gameplay also returns, and I feel is a direct improvement over the first game, with the time limits removed and Eggman himself finally being playable.
I heavily recommend the Steam versions of both games if you are looking to get the most out of them, strictly because of the modding community. Do keep in mind however the Steam port of SA2 is a little unstable, so you might experience crashes on occasion.
SilverVortex
True,
coming from the perspective of someone who hasn't completed either of these games (and is intending to), i didn't really enjoy the adventure series as a whole, despite them fundamentally being good games.
SA1 absolutely did not captivate me, and it saddens me that i couldn't get into it. the game's cutscenes were entertainingly bad, and the music was absolutely great, but it just didn't feel great to control and i really didn't enjoy it as much as i wanted to, people lauded this game with praise and i just couldn't see it. i put it down at about ice cap zone in sonic's story, but i'll pick it up again sometime later.
SA2 on the other hand does a much better job imo. the cutscenes may be comedically worse, but they're much more refined and show that sega have indeed learned from some of their mistakes...even if the sound mixing is horrible. the music is still absolutely stellar, and the gameplay feels much better this time in most regards. i feel a lot more in control of sonic, and most of the speed stages are nothing short of exhilarating bursts of fun that i love to grind for better times on. very few games are fun enough to get me to do that. while they can be tedious, tails and eggman's stages are quite fun gunning stages. getting high scores can be very satisfying, but it does get repetitive and, as i said, extremely long and tedious after a while. knuckles and rouge's stages are my least favourite in the game by far. the stages are huge, which is awesome, but that leaves them to be extremely cryptic and often frustrating to navigate, especially when some areas in certain stages look similar to others. no other stages leave me with an audible groan when i'm forced to do them.
i've beaten the hero story, and am about a quarter of the way through the dark story, but this is easily my favourite adventure game...even if the comparison by default isn't fair because of how little i've played of adventure 1.
SA1 absolutely did not captivate me, and it saddens me that i couldn't get into it. the game's cutscenes were entertainingly bad, and the music was absolutely great, but it just didn't feel great to control and i really didn't enjoy it as much as i wanted to, people lauded this game with praise and i just couldn't see it. i put it down at about ice cap zone in sonic's story, but i'll pick it up again sometime later.
SA2 on the other hand does a much better job imo. the cutscenes may be comedically worse, but they're much more refined and show that sega have indeed learned from some of their mistakes...even if the sound mixing is horrible. the music is still absolutely stellar, and the gameplay feels much better this time in most regards. i feel a lot more in control of sonic, and most of the speed stages are nothing short of exhilarating bursts of fun that i love to grind for better times on. very few games are fun enough to get me to do that. while they can be tedious, tails and eggman's stages are quite fun gunning stages. getting high scores can be very satisfying, but it does get repetitive and, as i said, extremely long and tedious after a while. knuckles and rouge's stages are my least favourite in the game by far. the stages are huge, which is awesome, but that leaves them to be extremely cryptic and often frustrating to navigate, especially when some areas in certain stages look similar to others. no other stages leave me with an audible groan when i'm forced to do them.
i've beaten the hero story, and am about a quarter of the way through the dark story, but this is easily my favourite adventure game...even if the comparison by default isn't fair because of how little i've played of adventure 1.
Icarus
Phantasy Savior
I like some part of the first game but I still think that Sega should've never changed the series so radically.
Why did they feel the need to give him a redesign with the green eyes and the more lanky figure, why did they feel the need to make him talk in cutscenes, why did they add a bigger villain than Robotnik (which became a monster of the week quickly after)?
I think that if Sega has kept Sonic as the main gameplay focus and the overal ambiance of the classic game (up to the Saturn) the series could've been still appreciated and seen as a good one by most people.
Why did they feel the need to give him a redesign with the green eyes and the more lanky figure, why did they feel the need to make him talk in cutscenes, why did they add a bigger villain than Robotnik (which became a monster of the week quickly after)?
I think that if Sega has kept Sonic as the main gameplay focus and the overal ambiance of the classic game (up to the Saturn) the series could've been still appreciated and seen as a good one by most people.
shadow unleashed
Member
even if you are right, the sonic design was better than saturn's and the need for sega to make a villain bigger than robotnik was already necessary to this day because only having one villain the game becomes repetitive and monotonous the need to make him talk was so that the scenes would make more sense and people appreciate it except the sonic saga of its extinction for me it is a good game just like the 2
time gear
Eternity in an hour
It was necessary to change Sonic's design as a consequence of why Sonic was designed the way he was to begin with. He was meant to be the antithesis to Mario; hip, angsty, too cool for school, etc. His design was fine for the 90's, but moving closer into the new decade SEGA decided it was time for some rebranding to keep Sonic relevant and cool, else he start to be seen as childish/boring.
Personally, I couldn't be happier with the design change presented in Adventure. The original design will always be appealing to me, but given the choice between the two I will always prefer the Adventure redesign. I'd even go so far as to say I prefer it over his current design, which is more of a middle ground between the two. The design absolutely resonates with personality and energy, you can tell from a glance what kind of character he's meant to be by the range of facial expressions he can be given and his body language. It feels like a proper evolution of what they were going for with the old design.
That's what really makes me sad about the games after Black Knight, Sonic and friends have lost their expressiveness and been replaced with what might as well be slabs of barely animated cardboard. Compare the pre-rendered cutscenes from games like Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic and the Black Knight, etc. to more recent games cutscenes such as Generations, Lost World, and Forces, and all that old expressiveness is just gone.
Personally, I couldn't be happier with the design change presented in Adventure. The original design will always be appealing to me, but given the choice between the two I will always prefer the Adventure redesign. I'd even go so far as to say I prefer it over his current design, which is more of a middle ground between the two. The design absolutely resonates with personality and energy, you can tell from a glance what kind of character he's meant to be by the range of facial expressions he can be given and his body language. It feels like a proper evolution of what they were going for with the old design.
That's what really makes me sad about the games after Black Knight, Sonic and friends have lost their expressiveness and been replaced with what might as well be slabs of barely animated cardboard. Compare the pre-rendered cutscenes from games like Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic and the Black Knight, etc. to more recent games cutscenes such as Generations, Lost World, and Forces, and all that old expressiveness is just gone.
Icarus
Phantasy Savior
And yet Mario didn't have to change his design (nor change from Bowser to a bigger threat) when he has jumped to 3D and most people are agreeing that he had the overall better game in his series
Pinkio
or Clutsi
I played both on 2018, and to be honest, i usually feel nostalgic from when i used to take care of every Chao, literally spending a lot of afternoons on the Chao Garden in SA2 for around 3 months though i used a glitch to feed them faster lol... so yeah, if you enjoyed a videogame too much that it brings up good nostalgia to a lot of people, then it got to be a really good game, i think
Nitro Turbo
A sonic fan guy !
I'm playing them this period !
They all both great (concept and creating) but the bugs are really a big problem !
They need some improvements for being epic !
They all both great (concept and creating) but the bugs are really a big problem !
They need some improvements for being epic !
Icarus
Phantasy Savior
I won't say that Adventure "ruined" the franchise (well, I used to think that several years ago) and despite the many issues that Modern Sonic has the game had some good points.
It's just that Sega should've focused on Sonic before anything else but instead they tried to shoehorn shooting and fishing in a game series that didn't need them.
I feel like Sega isn't able to make a solid 3D game without putting any gimmick of any kind (while Nintendo managed to smoothly transition Mario into the 3rd dimension on the N64)
It's just that Sega should've focused on Sonic before anything else but instead they tried to shoehorn shooting and fishing in a game series that didn't need them.
I feel like Sega isn't able to make a solid 3D game without putting any gimmick of any kind (while Nintendo managed to smoothly transition Mario into the 3rd dimension on the N64)
time gear
Eternity in an hour
Gimmicks aren't inherently a bad thing. Mario actually has gimmicks in all his games too. Mario 64's gimmicks were handled quite well, as they were smoothly integrated into both the lore and gameplay so as to be barely noticeable and able to be taken for granted. I am of course talking about the paintings and power stars. The paintings existed as a gimmick to transport Mario into the levels, while the power stars acted as the maguffin to collect. Sunshine then came with the FLUDD gimmick, Galaxy has the gravity and spheroids gimmick, etc.
This is why I grow tired rather easily of seeing Sonic fans complain about gimmicks being in Sonic games as if it's a negative point. The problem with the gimmicks in Sonic is not that they exist, it's how they are implemented. Game series have a necessity to change over time or else grow stale and fade into obscurity as people grow tired with them. Each new title must have a new feature that's attention grabbing enough to prompt people to buy the game despite owning the previous already. The philosophy of "This already works, so don't change it" therefore isn't realistic at all to the prolonged survival of a franchise.
What's really important then, is implementation. Adventure's big issue is that it shoehorns in 6 different core gameplay styles that it tries to branch off into their own individual but interconnecting stories. The problem is not that it has fishing or shooting or anything like that, it's that these gameplay styles are experimental and unrefined. The reason why Sonic's gameplay is the most popular is because his is the only one firmly rooted in the games that came before, the only one that's a translation of the old 2D games into 3D. Tails is the next best thing, followed by Knuckles, and the rest are all entirely new gameplay styles never seen before. Adventure was a little too ambitious for it's budget and time constraints, and so they were unable to refine these alternative gameplay styles as well as they probably would have liked, unlike Sonic who was based on an already working formula.
This likely was a consideration factor for the reduction in gameplay styles in SA2. Down from 6 to 3, each of the remaining gameplay styles (Sonic, Knuckles, and Gamma) has been tailored specifically to what they were aiming for. Generally, I tend to feel like Sonic's gameplay got slightly worse in this transition, Gamma's was greatly improved, and Knuckles was improved in most ways, but suffers from the emerald radar being unnecessarily restricted to one at a time. Overall, they knew better than to overextend their ambition leading into SA2's development. In this regard, SA2 actually handled it's gimmicks much better than SA1 did.
Sonic 06 was likely an attempt to do better at what they were shooting for with Adventure, though the development problems that game had (being rushed for the holidays being no small factor) lead to the final product being rushed and unfinished, causing the disaster we now know about today.
This is why I grow tired rather easily of seeing Sonic fans complain about gimmicks being in Sonic games as if it's a negative point. The problem with the gimmicks in Sonic is not that they exist, it's how they are implemented. Game series have a necessity to change over time or else grow stale and fade into obscurity as people grow tired with them. Each new title must have a new feature that's attention grabbing enough to prompt people to buy the game despite owning the previous already. The philosophy of "This already works, so don't change it" therefore isn't realistic at all to the prolonged survival of a franchise.
What's really important then, is implementation. Adventure's big issue is that it shoehorns in 6 different core gameplay styles that it tries to branch off into their own individual but interconnecting stories. The problem is not that it has fishing or shooting or anything like that, it's that these gameplay styles are experimental and unrefined. The reason why Sonic's gameplay is the most popular is because his is the only one firmly rooted in the games that came before, the only one that's a translation of the old 2D games into 3D. Tails is the next best thing, followed by Knuckles, and the rest are all entirely new gameplay styles never seen before. Adventure was a little too ambitious for it's budget and time constraints, and so they were unable to refine these alternative gameplay styles as well as they probably would have liked, unlike Sonic who was based on an already working formula.
This likely was a consideration factor for the reduction in gameplay styles in SA2. Down from 6 to 3, each of the remaining gameplay styles (Sonic, Knuckles, and Gamma) has been tailored specifically to what they were aiming for. Generally, I tend to feel like Sonic's gameplay got slightly worse in this transition, Gamma's was greatly improved, and Knuckles was improved in most ways, but suffers from the emerald radar being unnecessarily restricted to one at a time. Overall, they knew better than to overextend their ambition leading into SA2's development. In this regard, SA2 actually handled it's gimmicks much better than SA1 did.
Sonic 06 was likely an attempt to do better at what they were shooting for with Adventure, though the development problems that game had (being rushed for the holidays being no small factor) lead to the final product being rushed and unfinished, causing the disaster we now know about today.
Icarus
Phantasy Savior
Well the thing is that Nintendo had better gimmicks overal (and didn't shoehorn them in every games). Mario Sunshine wasn't well apreciated as a Mario game either.
I think that the Wisps and Elemental shields are the best gimmicks in the series while the rest are just mediocre or bad.
Sonic Adventure 2 still suffers from several downgrades such as Sonic feeling heavier and less platform-friendly than in SA1, Tails/Robotnik are clunkier than Gamma and Knuckles/Rouge's levels are probably too big/complicated for their own good.
Sonic 2006 still has made the error to have Silver's gameplay being all about the physic engine of the game (which was very inaccurate, Half-Life 2's Source Engine and gravity gun handled it much better 2 years ago).
PS: I'll still defend the if it ain't broke don't try fixing it philosophy because Mania has proven us that you can make great things with old things.
I think that the Wisps and Elemental shields are the best gimmicks in the series while the rest are just mediocre or bad.
Sonic Adventure 2 still suffers from several downgrades such as Sonic feeling heavier and less platform-friendly than in SA1, Tails/Robotnik are clunkier than Gamma and Knuckles/Rouge's levels are probably too big/complicated for their own good.
Sonic 2006 still has made the error to have Silver's gameplay being all about the physic engine of the game (which was very inaccurate, Half-Life 2's Source Engine and gravity gun handled it much better 2 years ago).
PS: I'll still defend the if it ain't broke don't try fixing it philosophy because Mania has proven us that you can make great things with old things.
Pyrakid Wolfo
Member
Very good.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
Nintendo doesn't "shoehorn" gimmicks in any less than SEGA does. It's also not necessarily that Nintendo's gimmicks are better or worse than those in Sonic games (Which is subjective), but rather how effectively those gimmicks are implemented. Nintendo has mastered the art of integrating their gimmicks in so well, you barely even think of them as gimmicks. Using Cappy in Super Mario Odyssey feels so natural that you barely even realize that it is a gimmick. The closest you're going to get to that level of gimmick implementation in Sonic is the boost.
Mania "fixed" what was "broken" plenty, btw. The level design is much more expansive than Classic style games past, There's two additional gameplay styles (Mighty and Ray), the philosophy towards how boss battles are handled is a natural evolution of how it was handled in 3&K, The Drop Dash is far more useful than the Insta-shield ever was, The Special Stages are the best they've ever been, The multiplayer is the best it's ever been, and each returning zone actually has new gimmicks and visual elements that weren't in the originals. That's just to name a few things. Regardless of how I still prefer S3K over Mania, it's pretty hard to deny that Mania made a ton of improvements and QoL updates.
cookiefonster
Wiki Admin
SA1 excels in story presentation, but in terms of gameplay it's a complete mess. The levels are weird and unfocused and based on so many one-off gimmicks and lots of scripted spectacle, with all the clumsy attempts at translating 2D Sonic level design to 3D. Different play styles and goals for each character is fun, and each character is reasonably fun to play as except for Amy with that godawful acceleration and pace-breaking ground hammer, and Big whose fishing stages are an insult to all life. All the characters' movesets are a bit bloated, with plenty of upgrades and moves you never need.
I will never forgive SA2 for lumping the spin dash, somersault, light speed dash, and occasionally even activating switches, all onto one button, with the abilities activated depending on the scenario and how long you activate the button. I've often found myself attempting to do one of the actions but doing the other by mistake, which is especially frustrating in the case of the somersault. Other than that, the game does a decent job at streamlining things compared to SA1 (I do like the new light speed dash and Knuckles' digging controls for instance), but by trimming so much fat, a lot of what made SA1 cool is nowhere to be found. The levels are rather repetitive and don't tend to distinguish themselves from each other well, with (for instance) many city levels and many desert levels, and the story is nowhere near as memorable. Final Rush is the best level by far; Mad Space is the worst level by far.
I've beaten SA1 all the way through, but in SA2 I never got past Final Chase in the Dark Story and thus haven't experienced all the ending content.
I will never forgive SA2 for lumping the spin dash, somersault, light speed dash, and occasionally even activating switches, all onto one button, with the abilities activated depending on the scenario and how long you activate the button. I've often found myself attempting to do one of the actions but doing the other by mistake, which is especially frustrating in the case of the somersault. Other than that, the game does a decent job at streamlining things compared to SA1 (I do like the new light speed dash and Knuckles' digging controls for instance), but by trimming so much fat, a lot of what made SA1 cool is nowhere to be found. The levels are rather repetitive and don't tend to distinguish themselves from each other well, with (for instance) many city levels and many desert levels, and the story is nowhere near as memorable. Final Rush is the best level by far; Mad Space is the worst level by far.
I've beaten SA1 all the way through, but in SA2 I never got past Final Chase in the Dark Story and thus haven't experienced all the ending content.
time gear
Eternity in an hour
This is something I'd love to see changed if a remake ever got made. Keep the option for the old, inferior controls for those who for whatever reason want it, but allow these abilities to all be mapped to different buttons for ease of use. I can't even count the number of times I've died because I wanted to light speed dash over a bottomless pit through a trail of rings, only to do the wrong action and fall to my doom.
I have. If you couldn't beat Final Chase, you probably would have a hard time with Cannons Core. The final story's actual story I'd say is worth it if you care about it, but the levels themselves aren't really anything to write home about aside from the great music. If you ever do get around to it, the best advice I can give you is get the aqua necklace as Knuckles first.