Viable Thok Replacement

[oinkusdoinkus.net]

I love the thok, but its replacement is inevitable. What would be a good replacement?

 

[time gear]

It depends strictly on the physics and level design. That means the actual level layouts themselves, and the placements of enemies, springs, monitors, etc. within them. The key to a good character ability is having it harmonize with the way the character moves in relation to the levels they are moving within.

Personally, what I absolutely do not want to see happen is making Sonic's thok replacement a powerful upward vertical mobility tool. If there is any one character in the game that shouldn't be able to easily skip platforming sections, it's Sonic. Skipping such sections as him should be possible, but only as a reward for skillful movement. Every other character in the game has the means available to them to skip a significant chunk of platforming, so either the levels would have to be redesigned to make this less possible for everyone simultaneously or Sonic should be treated as the baseline that everyone else is a sidegrade or upgrade to regarding vertical mobility. Moving up generally does not give you the same feeling of speed that moving horizontally does, so Sonic should definitely be more focused on horizontal movement.

I would propose that Sonic should get a slightly reduced jump height and a small double jump that restores back to him the rest of his jump height. This could be used to horizontally extend his jump distance or redirect his momentum to save himself from falling off a cliff. I would also propose that like the wind shield it should have similar utility of being able to be used even if you simply just run off the side of a cliff, but with the main difference being that unlike the wind shield it causes Sonic to curl up into a ball when used. Used in conjunction with a wind shield would give Sonic a sort of triple jump.

I like this idea in particular because it doesn't give Sonic any upwards verticality he doesn't already have, gives him extra horizontal mobility without giving him sudden bursts of speed that new players could accidentally hurt themselves with, has a low skill floor, and potential for a high skill ceiling.

A few ideas regarding the overall subject I really like:
-Giving Sonic's double jump ability special interaction with shields. Everyone can use shield abilities now, but this provides a unique opportunity for Sonic to get special shield interactions that specifically buff his double jumps in various ways.

-Allowing the player to swap to/from Tails at any time when playing on a "Sonic and Tails" save slot. This is done in Triple Trouble 16 bit, and it's a good solution to keeping upward verticality accessible to the player without giving Sonic himself any such mobility.

-Moving the thok to being a shield ability. This would allow the thok to remain in the vanilla campaign in a way that would also allow every vanilla character to use it, adding additional nuance to its use for skilled players to enjoy. It would also scope down the necessary level design that needs to be built around it, and it could be placed away from places where new players might get themselves killed with it.

 

[oinkusdoinkus.net]

It depends strictly on the physics and level design. That means the actual level layouts themselves, and the placements of enemies, springs, monitors, etc. within them. The key to a good character ability is having it harmonize with the way the character moves in relation to the levels they are moving within.

Personally, what I absolutely do not want to see happen is making Sonic's thok replacement a powerful upward vertical mobility tool. If there is any one character in the game that shouldn't be able to easily skip platforming sections, it's Sonic. Skipping such sections as him should be possible, but only as a reward for skillful movement. Every other character in the game has the means available to them to skip a significant chunk of platforming, so either the levels would have to be redesigned to make this less possible for everyone simultaneously or Sonic should be treated as the baseline that everyone else is a sidegrade or upgrade to regarding vertical mobility. Moving up generally does not give you the same feeling of speed that moving horizontally does, so Sonic should definitely be more focused on horizontal movement.

I would propose that Sonic should get a slightly reduced jump height and a small double jump that restores back to him the rest of his jump height. This could be used to horizontally extend his jump distance or redirect his momentum to save himself from falling off a cliff. I would also propose that like the wind shield it should have similar utility of being able to be used even if you simply just run off the side of a cliff, but with the main difference being that unlike the wind shield it causes Sonic to curl up into a ball when used. Used in conjunction with a wind shield would give Sonic a sort of triple jump.

I like this idea in particular because it doesn't give Sonic any upwards verticality he doesn't already have, gives him extra horizontal mobility without giving him sudden bursts of speed that new players could accidentally hurt themselves with, has a low skill floor, and potential for a high skill ceiling.

A few ideas regarding the overall subject I really like:
-Giving Sonic's double jump ability special interaction with shields. Everyone can use shield abilities now, but this provides a unique opportunity for Sonic to get special shield interactions that specifically buff his double jumps in various ways.

-Allowing the player to swap to/from Tails at any time when playing on a "Sonic and Tails" save slot. This is done in Triple Trouble 16 bit, and it's a good solution to keeping upward verticality accessible to the player without giving Sonic himself any such mobility.

-Moving the thok to being a shield ability. This would allow the thok to remain in the vanilla campaign in a way that would also allow every vanilla character to use it, adding additional nuance to its use for skilled players to enjoy. It would also scope down the necessary level design that needs to be built around it, and it could be placed away from places where new players might get themselves killed with it.

I like that, anything is better than the sandwich.

 

[time gear]

I like that, anything is better than the sandwich.

The specific problem with the "breakfast sandwich" (as much of the community has taken to calling it as a result of that particular youtube video), is that it's overly complicated and gives Sonic tools that are both unintuitive and that he doesn't need. I'm inclined to think that STJr ultimately ended up agreeing with this sentiment since it seems as though they've moved on from it.

While double jumping is something that has become something of a gaming cliché, it also remains one of the best and most fun forms of level traversal within the platforming genre and can have a lot of nuance applied to it to make it unique from other interpretations and to better fit its inclusion within any particular game.

 

[PencilVoid]

I've always been a fan of Pointy's momentum flip. It's relatively easy to understand and can be very powerful in the hands of someone who understands it well. I think it could make a decent replacement for the thok.

I also enjoy Inferno's air drill, but I don't think it would be significantly easier for a newcomer to use than the thok. However, I would say the problem isn't that the thok is too difficult to use but rather that the level design punishes the player too severely for messing up with it.

 

[time gear]

I've always been a fan of Pointy's momentum flip. It's relatively easy to understand and can be very powerful in the hands of someone who understands it well. I think it could make a decent replacement for the thok.

I'm also a fan of it, though I do take slight issue with the fact that it removes you from the spin state. Something like that but that allows Sonic to stay in the spin state for damaging enemies would be better, I think.

I would say the problem isn't that the thok is too difficult to use but rather that the level design punishes the player too severely for messing up with it.

I've said as much about the level design myself. The issue as far as I know (based on the most recent info I've heard, which is admittedly a few years old) is that there's no intention to redesign the levels in the next major update, with the levels remaining largely the same as a comparison point for toying with the new physics and Dark City Zone instead functioning as the big test for playing in a level specifically made with the new physics in mind. As such, the thok isn't going to be fitting the level design any time soon. Something more akin to a double jump would work quite nicely within the existing level design however, and if the thok were to be relegated to being a shield ability instead it would matter a lot less that the thok is so situationally useful because it would also be situationally granted to the player.