Suggestions

[DiscardedBiscuit]

Considering a exe mod made one of my saves unusable on vanilla, I'm glad the main game has the "modified state", though I don't know if any regular addon could do the same to my save files or worse, I'm actually curious about that. How much damage can mods hypothetically do to the vanilla save data?

Also how hard is it to just use the Custom save soc? Just cause other games don't typically have a safety net doesn't mean this one shouldn't.

 

[Chezi]

Considering a exe mod made one of my saves unusable on vanilla, I'm glad the main game has the "modified state", though I don't know if any regular addon could do the same to my save files or worse, I'm actually curious about that. How much damage can mods hypothetically do to the vanilla save data?

Also how hard is it to just use the Custom save soc? Just cause other games don't typically have a safety net doesn't mean this one shouldn't.

The “damage” it causes is more akin to accessing things you shouldn’t because of the vanilla games progression. For example, editing GFZ1 to contain all the Chaos Emeralds, collecting them, and then saving the game would cause the unmodded game to have all Chaos Emeralds obtained despite never having gone to a special stage. There’s also the fact that patched skins would have their records saved in Record Attack, which would cause replays to be desynced since Sonic would have different abilities that aren’t present in the replay

 

[Darknik]

The “damage” it causes is more akin to accessing things you shouldn’t because of the vanilla games progression. For example, editing GFZ1 to contain all the Chaos Emeralds, collecting them, and then saving the game would cause the unmodded game to have all Chaos Emeralds obtained despite never having gone to a special stage. There’s also the fact that patched skins would have their records saved in Record Attack, which would cause replays to be desynced since Sonic would have different abilities that aren’t present in the replayñp

A solution to both problems would be to have a custom save data in the game that loads automatically when it detects the game as modified

In this way we avoid that players use mods in the vanilla game and at the same time we avoid that those who want to play with mods have to load a custom save data whenever they want to play with these

 

[time gear]

A solution to both problems would be to have a custom save data in the game that loads automatically when it detects the game as modified

In this way we avoid that players use mods in the vanilla game and at the same time we avoid that those who want to play with mods have to load a custom save data whenever they want to play with these

That would mean you'd have to complete the game twice if you like to mod the game. With the current method of downloading a custom savedata, you can just copy your savedata and do a little renaming and you have everything you unlocked already also unlocked in your custom savedata.

The current method of simply disabling progress by default when addons are loaded is convenient enough. Everything you already unlocked is still there, you just can't unlock anything new until you reload the game. Manually downloading the custom save soc and doing a little copying and renaming isn't really too much to ask for those who wish to bypass this.

 

[GrayAngel]

Well, I don't know if it would be worth the effort, but I think of how Skyrim: Special Edition handles modded saves and think something like that would be ideal. So say you start a new game with no mods loaded, and then later, you return to that save file, but with mods loaded. The next time you go to save, you won't be able to overwrite your old save, but you will be able to create a new one. The game keeps the modded saves separate from the vanilla saves. However, if you play with mods loaded, you cannot get achievements. Although you could get around that with a mod that re-enables achievements.

I could see something like that working. If you have the Shadow add-on, for example, you could play through the game with Shadow and save your progress. But by default, all emblems are hidden. You'd just have to be careful to use the same combination of add-ons. The game could keep track of what add-ons are used for which modded saves, and maybe even automatically activate those add-ons if they're not activated already, similar to how it does when you connect to a modded net game.

Time attack ghosts would probably be too much of a pain to keep track of with modded saves, though. Too many things could go wrong there. If someone really wants to, though, they could use an add-on that enables emblems, so people can collect them with their modded characters, if they want to. I don't see the harm in that.

 

[time gear]

Well, I don't know if it would be worth the effort, but I think of how Skyrim: Special Edition handles modded saves and think something like that would be ideal. So say you start a new game with no mods loaded, and then later, you return to that save file, but with mods loaded. The next time you go to save, you won't be able to overwrite your old save, but you will be able to create a new one. The game keeps the modded saves separate from the vanilla saves. However, if you play with mods loaded, you cannot get achievements. Although you could get around that with a mod that re-enables achievements.

I could see something like that working. If you have the Shadow add-on, for example, you could play through the game with Shadow and save your progress. But by default, all emblems are hidden. You'd just have to be careful to use the same combination of add-ons. The game could keep track of what add-ons are used for which modded saves, and maybe even automatically activate those add-ons if they're not activated already, similar to how it does when you connect to a modded net game.

Time attack ghosts would probably be too much of a pain to keep track of with modded saves, though. Too many things could go wrong there. If someone really wants to, though, they could use an add-on that enables emblems, so people can collect them with their modded characters, if they want to. I don't see the harm in that.

The original Skyrim works like that too except mods don't disable achievements on that version. This is probably the most sensible suggestion in favor of lessening the restrictions so far, but I do have some questions regarding it considering SRB2 is a very different game than Skyrim.

For example, it does beg the question of how to handle saves with vanilla characters under your proposition. Should they still be able to save and make progress on modified games? This could theoretically screw someone over who for example makes it to the Fang boss fight and doesn't get the unlockable associated with it, not even realizing to begin with that there even is an unlockable associated with that fight. If you solve this by making unlockables enabled in modified games by default, it wraps back around to the safety net problem we were discussing earlier.

If we assume that only modded characters can save and make progress on modified games, this begs the question of why vanilla characters suddenly cannot.

Overall, the way things are now still comes off to me as more elegant. Everything abides by the same rules and the player takes the matter of the safety net into their own hands on a case by case basis. If you want the safety net, it's there. If you don't, it's easy enough to remove. Perhaps the best alternative overall for those who really don't want to download anything would be to implement a console command that removes the "modified" flag from the game in single player, so you can make and save save files, find emblems, unlock unlockables, etc. but you still can't join online games or play record attack. You would have to type this in every time you load the game, but it would still have the end effect of placing the fate of the safety net in the hands of the player, and would double as being reminiscent of a retro cheat code.

 

[Shaddy the guy]

What SRB2 does right now is removing that risk. There is no risk to modding your game because your save files are still intact

Not modding the game also removes that risk. Who mods their game worried about affecting their save without the game enforcing that worry by restricting it?

Yes it is. Progression in SRB2 is designed as such that it saves your progress when you collect a thing or reach a certain point or are given a particular reward unlockable for doing a thing or etc. When you attempt to do this illegitimately, it refuses to save and disables unlockables. That is built into it's core design. To remove these restrictions would be to change the core design of the game.

Well no, you still unlock things when you do the things to unlock them whether you're cheating to do those things or not.

What Chezi is getting at is that under the current system, if you don't want to cheese the game for progress/unlockables you are still safe to play around with mods without having to unlock everything naturally first. It simply disables progress so that you can dick around with whatever mods you please without worrying about tainting your save file. To remove this would mean that there would be inherent risk of unlocking something illegitimately every time you loaded up a big enough mod like a character or etc. unless you had already done everything. That safety net would be gone.

If you want to go out of your way to remove that safety net yourself, there are tools made available for you to do that and nobody is telling you that you can't. However, that is an entirely different thing from it being forced on everyone by the core design of the game being altered. Yes, it's a restriction. However, it's also a safety net, and not all restrictions are bad. What you are proposing would completely break the progression system for everyone who wants to do things legitimately but also wants to play around with mods and doesn't want to have to wait until they've done everything they care about first to be able to safely do so. Or to put it another way, you would be replacing the restriction on progression with a restriction on when you can safely use mods.

Okay, but why does that have to be a binary "it saves everything" or "it saves nothing"? I'm not asking for players to be unable to decide whether they unlock things or not, I'm asking for the exact opposite. A "restriction on whether you can safely use mods" only exists if you assume anything I'm asking for is inherently going to be implemented in the stupidest way possible. Why not just demand nothing ever be changed about the game, at that point? That is what this mindset pushes for.

 

[Chezi]

Not modding the game also removes that risk. Who mods their game worried about affecting their save without the game enforcing that worry by restricting it?

Well no, you still unlock things when you do the things to unlock them whether you're cheating to do those things or not.

Okay, but why does that have to be a binary "it saves everything" or "it saves nothing"? I'm not asking for players to be unable to decide whether they unlock things or not, I'm asking for the exact opposite. A "restriction on whether you can safely use mods" only exists if you assume anything I'm asking for is inherently going to be implemented in the stupidest way possible. Why not just demand nothing ever be changed about the game, at that point? That is what this mindset pushes for.

You are entirely missing the point here. The reason why the game disables saving when mods are active is so that it removes the risk of damaging the player’s vanilla save. Saying “just don’t mod the game also removes the risk of damaging your save” after I tell you why that restriction is there is like saying “just don’t cook food in the oven if you don’t want to get burned” after I explain you wear oven mitts to prevent burns.

I want to cook food in the oven, so I’ll be more than happy to wear the mitts

 

[time gear]

Not modding the game also removes that risk. Who mods their game worried about affecting their save without the game enforcing that worry by restricting it?

You really don't seem to understand. You may not be concerned with whether or not you progress legitimately but many people are. It's not a fear of unlocking things through cheats, it's an unwillingness to. A desire to complete the game legitimately, without using cheats/mods. At the same time, mods and cheats are fun to play around with. Players who don't want to unlock things through unintended means shouldn't be forced to do so through the intended means before it's safe to play around with mods and cheats. Disabling unlocks allows you to mod the game all you want right off the bat and you don't have to worry about messing up your save data with a bunch of unlocks you didn't earn properly.

You are getting the order wrong. The game doesn't cause people to worry about the risk through it's enforcement. The game enforces because people don't want to deal with the risk. If you don't care about that kind of thing, the tools are available for you to remove that safeguard and nobody is judging you for going out of your way to do so.

Well no, you still unlock things when you do the things to unlock them whether you're cheating to do those things or not.

Not under the vanilla system. If you are cheating, unlockables are disabled. Even if you do a full playthrough of the game with all the emeralds collected, you don't unlock anything for it in the end if the game detects that it's been modified. That is by design. What you are proposing is a change to this design enabling unlocks in cheated runs. This would apply to everyone who plays, not just those who want it. This is not necessary. Those who don't want it would get left behind, those who do already have the means available to get around it.

Okay, but why does that have to be a binary "it saves everything" or "it saves nothing"? I'm not asking for players to be unable to decide whether they unlock things or not, I'm asking for the exact opposite. A "restriction on whether you can safely use mods" only exists if you assume anything I'm asking for is inherently going to be implemented in the stupidest way possible.

Oh really? What was it you proposed again? Let's refresh our memories shall we?

Maybe it's just me, but I think we've progressed past the need for the game to change anything when it's modified. If you can download mods, you can download custom or complete savedata, and I feel like at this point halting unlocks and such when you have a mod loaded, especially one that doesn't alter gameplay, is just kind of needless.

You see, when this kind of contradiction pops up, it really ends up coming off as disingenuous. You're moving the goalpost by claiming your proposition isn't that extreme when your original post on the matter specifically pointed out that there's no need to halt unlocks when you have a mod loaded. That there's no need "for the game to change anything when it's modified". There's only one thing that could mean. If you load a mod or enable a cheat, you aren't barred from unlocks. The very thing that we have been explaining doesn't work, and why the safeguard against exactly that exists to begin with.

The option to get around this already exists and is made readily available. You simply download the custom savedata mod, have it at the end of your load order, maybe do a little file renaming if you already have progress so that you don't lose it, and you're in business. Not only is this not even remotely frowned upon for those who want it, it's outright distributed right here on the MB.

Why not just demand nothing ever be changed about the game, at that point? That is what this mindset pushes for.

And this is the most disingenuous part of your entire argument. Let's flip that around to the opposite extreme, shall we? Why even have save data and unlocks at all? Why not just have everything unlocked from the start? After all, you can just download save data off the internet right? So why bother?

You starting to see the problem with this kind of argument? It's a strawman. It's a distortion of what either of us is trying to say for the sake of defending a fallacious stance. Obviously nobody is trying to say that nothing about the game should ever be changed. We all like playing around with mods. Sometimes it's even fun to whip out godmode or dick around with the gravity or something. However, we also know that when you do that and then unlock something while doing it, you didn't really earn that unlock now did you? You cheated. That's what the current system protects against. It doesn't stop you from actually doing the cheating, but you are free to do so without worrying about getting an unlock that you actually intended on earning legit.

If I'm playing as Modern Sonic boosting through the levels faster than the devs intended, I don't want to accidentally grab an emblem or unlock a character or something. I want to be able to to do those unlock conditions legit later and have fun dicking around as Modern Sonic now. If that's not your thing and you'd rather the game not be flagged as modified, the tools to remove that safeguard are readily available and distributed here on the MB.

 

[Shaddy the guy]

You are entirely missing the point here. The reason why the game disables saving when mods are active is so that it removes the risk of damaging the player’s vanilla save. Saying “just don’t mod the game also removes the risk of damaging your save” after I tell you why that restriction is there is like saying “just don’t cook food in the oven if you don’t want to get burned” after I explain you wear oven mitts to prevent burns.

I want to cook food in the oven, so I’ll be more than happy to wear the mitts

This is more like me wanting an oven that doesn't just doesn't burn people, with the caveat that it doesn't defy the laws of physics to allow some players to use mods and not others.

You really don't seem to understand. You may not be concerned with whether or not you progress legitimately but many people are. It's not a fear of unlocking things through cheats, it's an unwillingness to. A desire to complete the game legitimately, without using cheats/mods. At the same time, mods and cheats are fun to play around with. Players who don't want to unlock things through unintended means shouldn't be forced to do so through the intended means before it's safe to play around with mods and cheats. Disabling unlocks allows you to mod the game all you want right off the bat and you don't have to worry about messing up your save data with a bunch of unlocks you didn't earn properly.

You are getting the order wrong. The game doesn't cause people to worry about the risk through it's enforcement. The game enforces because people don't want to deal with the risk. If you don't care about that kind of thing, the tools are available for you to remove that safeguard and nobody is judging you for going out of your way to do so.

Except, again, nobody's trying to fucking force people to play the way I want them to. You are inserting that yourself. This isn't the first time I've seen this from you, and I gotta say, the shtick is getting old.

Not under the vanilla system. If you are cheating, unlockables are disabled. Even if you do a full playthrough of the game with all the emeralds collected, you don't unlock anything for it in the end if the game detects that it's been modified. That is by design. What you are proposing is a change to this design enabling unlocks in cheated runs. This would apply to everyone who plays, not just those who want it. This is not necessary. Those who don't want it would get left behind, those who do already have the means available to get around it.

I'm not saying the game currently lets you cheat to unlock things, simply that if you could unlock things with cheats, then you wouldn't really be doing anything different.

Oh really? What was it you proposed again? Let's refresh our memories shall we?


You see, when this kind of contradiction pops up, it really ends up coming off as disingenuous. You're moving the goalpost by claiming your proposition isn't that extreme when your original post on the matter specifically pointed out that there's no need to halt unlocks when you have a mod loaded. That there's no need "for the game to change anything when it's modified". There's only one thing that could mean. If you load a mod or enable a cheat, you aren't barred from unlocks. The very thing that we have been explaining doesn't work, and why the safeguard against exactly that exists to begin with.

It is absolutely rich that you accuse me of being disingenuous because you're taking out your dislike for a thing I don't want by pretending I want it. I never said players should be forced to unlock things when using mods, simply that they need not be forced not to just for the convenience of those who want to be restricted.

The option to get around this already exists and is made readily available. You simply download the custom savedata mod, have it at the end of your load order, maybe do a little file renaming if you already have progress so that you don't lose it, and you're in business. Not only is this not even remotely frowned upon for those who want it, it's outright distributed right here on the MB.

Think of it this way: most games won't redirect your save by default when adding mods, much less disable saving altogether. If someone wanted that in a game by default, would you say they're attacking the purity of the game by asking for it and calling them disingenuous when they say that they actually just wanted it to be one option? Nobody is coming for your toothbrush.

And this is the most disingenuous part of your entire argument. Let's flip that around to the opposite extreme, shall we? Why even have save data and unlocks at all? Why not just have everything unlocked from the start? After all, you can just download save data off the internet right? So why bother?

You starting to see the problem with this kind of argument? It's a strawman.

Again, this only makes sense if you interpret me as wanting nobody to ever unlock things vanilla or something. I never at any point implied that nobody should be able to play the way they want. I fully support the current method being one option players can use! But I guess that just doesn't matter so long as you can construct a target for yourself here.

However, we also know that when you do that and then unlock something while doing it, you didn't really earn that unlock now did you? You cheated. That's what the current system protects against. It doesn't stop you from actually doing the cheating, but you are free to do so without worrying about getting an unlock that you actually intended on earning legit.

Oh, I think we just hit the real bedrock of your take here, finally passing by all the shit you just made up about me. It's right there in that last line, there's something "legitimate" about players who play the way you want that is "illegitimate" for those who deviate. Wrong though, obviously. And perhaps a topic for a different thread. I think we're done here.

 

[time gear]

This is more like me wanting an oven that doesn't just doesn't burn people, with the caveat that it doesn't defy the laws of physics to allow some players to use mods and not others.

An oven that doesn't burn people doesn't exist. That's why oven mitts exist, as a safeguard against a natural consequence of ovens being hot. If the oven couldn't burn you, it couldn't cook food either.

What you are claiming to ask for already exists. If you don't want the game to be flagged as modified, the method of removing that flag has been outlined here many times already.

Except, again, nobody's trying to fucking force people to play the way I want them to. You are inserting that yourself. This isn't the first time I've seen this from you, and I gotta say, the shtick is getting old.

In your own words as quoted in my previous post you don't think "anything" should be changed when the game is modified. I'm not inserting anything myself. That's your quote. I'm just responding to it. Acting all tired about something I'm supposedly doing doesn't change that.

I'm not saying the game currently lets you cheat to unlock things, simply that if you could unlock things with cheats, then you wouldn't really be doing anything different.

So then, are you saying that there's no difference between unlocking things legitimately and illegitimately? Because I really hope not. I genuinely hope that you don't actually think unlocking things with cheats enabled is the same thing as doing it properly.

It is absolutely rich that you accuse me of being disingenuous because you're taking out your dislike for a thing I don't want by pretending I want it. I never said players should be forced to unlock things when using mods, simply that they need not be forced not to just for the convenience of those who want to be restricted.

They already aren't. The custom savedata mod exists. You can use it right now to get around that "problem". The thing you don't seem to understand is that the safeguard doesn't exist solely for the sake of those who want to unlock things legitimately. It certainly comes in handy for us, but it doesn't exist for our sake. The reason why the safeguard exists is because the game by design is assigning conditions to obtaining progress and unlocking things and etc. and enforcing that these conditions be met legitimately for them to count. If you really don't want to abide by this, you can just download the thing and yada yada yada.

Think of it this way: most games won't redirect your save by default when adding mods, much less disable saving altogether. If someone wanted that in a game by default, would you say they're attacking the purity of the game by asking for it and calling them disingenuous when they say that they actually just wanted it to be one option? Nobody is coming for your toothbrush.

Most games also don't operate under the inherent assumption that the player is going to mod or cheat to begin with, or that they even can. SRB2 does. If I go install a mod for Sonic Generations that changes the physics, this isn't something that was even intended by the devs to be possible to begin with, so why would they go out of their way to program in a way to stop your red ring collection from counting when you do?

The "option" already exists. If you don't like the restiction, just go do the thing blah blah blah.

Again, this only makes sense if you interpret me as wanting nobody to ever unlock things vanilla or something. I never at any point implied that nobody should be able to play the way they want. I fully support the current method being one option players can use! But I guess that just doesn't matter so long as you can construct a target for yourself here.

If you are so adamant about this, why not actually make a proper suggestion regarding it then? Explain how it can be possible to make this a toggle option in the game itself in a way that is easily found by the player and doesn't undermine it's own core design. Until then, I'm still going to believe it's better off being something you have to manually work around if you don't like it.

Oh, I think we just hit the real bedrock of your take here, finally passing by all the shit you just made up about me. It's right there in that last line, there's something "legitimate" about players who play the way you want that is "illegitimate" for those who deviate. Wrong though, obviously. And perhaps a topic for a different thread. I think we're done here.

Nice strawman again. By "legitimate" I am referring to normal play. By "illegitimate" I am referring to modified play. Normal play is "legitimate" in the sense that you are not breaking the rules established by the game to progress, and modded play is "illegitimate" in the sense that you are bending the rules, cheating, to accomplish this. Does that hurt your feelings? That's a moot point to the discussion.

 

[Shaddy the guy]

An oven that doesn't burn people doesn't exist. That's why oven mitts exist, as a safeguard against a natural consequence of ovens being hot. If the oven couldn't burn you, it couldn't cook food either.

Congratulations on pointing out the failure of the analogy I didn't introduce to the discussion, I guess. Wouldn't even be impressive if I hadn't done the same thing myself.

What you are claiming to ask for already exists. If you don't want the game to be flagged as modified, the method of removing that flag has been outlined here many times already.

I'm beginning to think you don't understand what I'm asking for. I want it to be in the fucking game. Again, you might as well not change anything about the game if you just write everything off as "just download a mod for it".

In your own words as quoted in my previous post you don't think "anything" should be changed when the game is modified. I'm not inserting anything myself. That's your quote. I'm just responding to it. Acting all tired about something I'm supposedly doing doesn't change that.

Yes, as in "the game shouldn't roadblock you to these things if you don't want it to". Nowhere does that say "they should make sure the game never stops you from doing anything, even things you don't want to do", and it saying that is the foundation of your bad take here.

So then, are you saying that there's no difference between unlocking things legitimately and illegitimately? Because I really hope not. I genuinely hope that you don't actually think unlocking things with cheats enabled is the same thing as doing it properly.

Let's pretend I do believe that, in case that satiates your hunger. Prove that there's a such thing as any "legitimate" or "illegitimate" way to play a single player game, and that there's some reason that's more important than the player having a good experience. Please, enlighten me on how gatekeeping this is worth anything.

They already aren't. The custom savedata mod exists. You can use it right now to get around that "problem". The thing you don't seem to understand is that the safeguard doesn't exist solely for the sake of those who want to unlock things legitimately. It certainly comes in handy for us, but it doesn't exist for our sake. The reason why the safeguard exists is because the game by design is assigning conditions to obtaining progress and unlocking things and etc. and enforcing that these conditions be met legitimately for them to count. If you really don't want to abide by this, you can just download the thing and yada yada yada.

Holy shit, you are not listening at all.

Most games also don't operate under the inherent assumption that the player is going to mod or cheat to begin with, or that they even can. SRB2 does. If I go install a mod for Sonic Generations that changes the physics, this isn't something that was even intended by the devs to be possible to begin with, so why would they go out of their way to program in a way to stop your red ring collection from counting when you do?

Who cares? The context a game was made under is not a factor in what players should want from it.

If you are so adamant about this, why not actually make a proper suggestion regarding it then? Explain how it can be possible to make this a toggle option in the game itself in a way that is easily found by the player and doesn't undermine it's own core design. Until then, I'm still going to believe it's better off being something you have to manually work around if you don't like it.

Oh, I'm so sorry I didn't hit your incredibly objective and correct standards for a proper suggestion post. I should have remembered that. It's mentioned at least seven times in the forum rules, after all. Truly, I have been epicly owned with facts and logic, and must recline to my degenerate chamber of "not posting the way @time gear is personally comfortable with" filth.

Nice strawman again. By "legitimate" I am referring to normal play. By "illegitimate" I am referring to modified play. Normal play is "legitimate" in the sense that you are not breaking the rules established by the game to progress, and modded play is "illegitimate" in the sense that you are bending the rules, cheating, to accomplish this. Does that hurt your feelings? That's a moot point to the discussion.

That's not what a "strawman" is, and you should certainly know, you put a lot of exp into it.

Secondly, "the rules established by the game" mean fucking nothing. A single player game does not have rules. At best, it has laws, and people are actively applauded for finding ways to break them. There's an entire community based around doing so professionally. And sure, that has rules, but there is not and never will be a "wrong way" to play a game if it makes it enjoyable. Gatekeeping like that is what steers people away from a game, not toward it.

 

[time gear]

I'm beginning to think you don't understand what I'm asking for. I want it to be in the fucking game. Again, you might as well not change anything about the game if you just write everything off as "just download a mod for it".

This argument ignores the situational context of the discussion at hand. By your logic here, they should just go ahead and implement every single little frivolous thing players want in the game so that they don't have to go download a mod for it. What you are suggesting is more than just a feature support, it's a conflict with the existing core design of how the game handles cheaters.

Yes, as in "the game shouldn't roadblock you to these things if you don't want it to". Nowhere does that say "they should make sure the game never stops you from doing anything, even things you don't want to do", and it saying that is the foundation of your bad take here.

Your take on my take is bad. You're missing the fundamental point that Chezi and I have been making entirely. The game already doesn't roadblock you from modding and cheating, it just disables unlockables and saving when you do. As an additional note, only some mods actually disable unlockables and progress. If you are just modding the music for example, the game doesn't care and doesn't flag the game as modified.

Let's pretend I do believe that, in case that satiates your hunger. Prove that there's a such thing as any "legitimate" or "illegitimate" way to play a single player game, and that there's some reason that's more important than the player having a good experience. Please, enlighten me on how gatekeeping this is worth anything.

Games are entertainment activities performed within given rule sets. In rock paper scissors, it is fundamental to the game that paper beats rock, rock beats scissors, and scissors beats paper. These are the conditions to victory. Without these conditions, you do not have a game. If you arbitrarily decide to add in "Dragon" which beats everything and then use it every time, you aren't winning the game legitimately. You are bending the rules into your favor, cheating them to get your desired result without having to do so within the previously established ruleset. This makes your win illegitimate.

Extending this to SRB2, unlocks are tied behind conditions. If an unlock is tied behind, say, 20 emblems, then that is the condition that is being set by the game to unlock that unlockable, and that condition is being set under the context of doing so within the existing parameters of the game without adding or changing anything. If an emblem seems to be out of reach but is actually within reach if I play as a different character, then if I obtain that emblem via instead altering the gravity so that I jump higher, I have broken the rules the game has set up in regards to how that emblem was intended to be obtained. As such, I have not met the established condition to have that emblem, so why should the game allow me to grab it? Doing so would undermine the conditions the game already set to unlock that unlockable, so there might as well not even be conditions at all at that point.

Granted, it is possible to cheat to do one thing but then later in the same session not cheat to do another thing. However, unless it's figured out how to get the game to be able to tell the difference, a flag for having modified the game is better than just ignoring it.

Holy shit, you are not listening at all.

That's not particularly constructive.

Who cares? The context a game was made under is not a factor in what players should want from it.

If players want something different, they can modify it. If this blocks them from progressing, they can modify it so that it doesn't. If something a player wants conflicts with the design of the game, the devs aren't obligated to change their design to make them happy. "Cheats shouldn't inherently disable unlockables" is a different kind of suggestion from "This character should be in the base game" or "this thing is overpowered and should be nerfed" or etc. in that they don't conflict with the core design of the game. That still wouldn't guarantee they get added though. Even if something like new characters or balance changes doesn't conflict with the core design of the game, it is still the kind of thing that needs to be taken into careful consideration in regards to whether or not it has a place in the vanilla, unmodified version of the game.

Oh, I'm so sorry I didn't hit your incredibly objective and correct standards for a proper suggestion post. I should have remembered that. It's mentioned at least seven times in the forum rules, after all. Truly, I have been epicly owned with facts and logic, and must recline to my degenerate chamber of "not posting the way @time gear is personally comfortable with" filth.

Once again you take what I am saying and go a whole different direction with it. All I was asking for was that you outline how your suggestion could actually be done. I never once stated anything along the lines of this being an infraction of the rules or anything. Is it really asking so much for you to try to be constructive?

That's not what a "strawman" is, and you should certainly know, you put a lot of exp into it.

A strawman is a misrepresentation or distortion of what someone is saying because it's easier to debunk than their real argument. For instance, to imply that Chezi or I are against the game being changed in any way whatsoever, or that the "legitimacy" I was referring to was somehow based on my own standards and not those of the game itself.

Secondly, "the rules established by the game" mean fucking nothing. A single player game does not have rules. At best, it has laws, and people are actively applauded for finding ways to break them. There's an entire community based around doing so professionally. And sure, that has rules, but there is not and never will be a "wrong way" to play a game if it makes it enjoyable. Gatekeeping like that is what steers people away from a game, not toward it.

A game without rules is not a game. All games have rules, single player or otherwise. These rules are very plain and obvious. In SRB2 for example, if you touch the sharp end of spikes, you get hurt. If you touch one ring, one ring gets added to your counter. If you break an invincibility monitor, you are granted temporary invincibility for about 20 seconds. You are tasked with getting to the goal of each level and defeating each boss within the rules the game establishes, and breaking these rules is cheating.

I'm not saying that playing with cheats enabled is "illegitimate" in the sense that you are in the wrong for doing it. Nobody cares if you are cheating in a single player game. We've all done it. Nobody is trying to act all holier than thou in that regard. What I am saying is that within the given ruleset established within the game itself, to use these cheats to bend around the conditions required to progress is treated as illegitimate progress due to the aforementioned cheating, and therefore doesn't count. To change this without mods would be to change the core design of how the game handles cheating, and undermines the entire point of there even being given conditions to progress to begin with.

Games are defined by their rules, not by how well you can snap those rules in half. Just because doing so is fun doesn't make the game about that.

 

[Charybdizs]

Oh, I'm so sorry I didn't hit your incredibly objective and correct standards for a proper suggestion post. I should have remembered that. It's mentioned at least seven times in the forum rules, after all. Truly, I have been epicly owned with facts and logic, and must recline to my degenerate chamber of "not posting the way @time gear is personally comfortable with" filth.

The only thing that you're doing wrong here is being a dick. The actual conversation is fine and it's probably worth all these words if it's something you both care about and have such strong opinions on, but wow, chill out and be respectful. You can disagree with someone and you can even vehemently disagree with someone without being sarcastic and dramatic like this.

 

[Shaddy the guy]

This argument ignores the situational context of the discussion at hand. By your logic here, they should just go ahead and implement every single little frivolous thing players want in the game so that they don't have to go download a mod for it.

No, they should implement this thing that I want. You don't actually need a larger justification to want something in the game. You're demanding one from me right now, sure, but I don't see you applying that standard to any other random thing people want in this thread.

What you are suggesting is more than just a feature support, it's a conflict with the existing core design of how the game handles cheaters.

No it's not, if you want the "existing core design" you just don't enable the option.

Your take on my take is bad. You're missing the fundamental point that Chezi and I have been making entirely. The game already doesn't roadblock you from modding and cheating, it just disables unlockables and saving when you do. As an additional note, only some mods actually disable unlockables and progress. If you are just modding the music for example, the game doesn't care and doesn't flag the game as modified.

Your fundamental point is a bad one. I want it in the game. I want custom savedata to be a thing you can just enable.

Games are entertainment activities performed within given rule sets. In rock paper scissors, it is fundamental to the game that paper beats rock, rock beats scissors, and scissors beats paper. These are the conditions to victory. Without these conditions, you do not have a game. If you arbitrarily decide to add in "Dragon" which beats everything and then use it every time, you aren't winning the game legitimately. You are bending the rules into your favor, cheating them to get your desired result without having to do so within the previously established ruleset. This makes your win illegitimate.

Single-player video games do not work the same way as rock paper scissors.

Granted, it is possible to cheat to do one thing but then later in the same session not cheat to do another thing. However, unless it's figured out how to get the game to be able to tell the difference, a flag for having modified the game is better than just ignoring it.

Again, nobody is asking for it to ignore anything if people don't want it to.

That's not particularly constructive.

I disagree. I think it would be very constructive if you started listening to me.

If players want something different, they can modify it. If this blocks them from progressing, they can modify it so that it doesn't. If something a player wants conflicts with the design of the game, the devs aren't obligated to change their design to make them happy.

Again, not seeing why you wouldn't just say this to literally anything in this thread. There are doubtless hundreds of posts here asking for things that "conflict with the design of the game", that you could reply to with "the devs aren't obligated to change it just to make you happy"", except that would be really obnoxious, just like it is right now.

"Cheats shouldn't inherently disable unlockables" is a different kind of suggestion from "This character should be in the base game" or "this thing is overpowered and should be nerfed" or etc. in that they don't conflict with the core design of the game. That still wouldn't guarantee they get added though. Even if something like new characters or balance changes doesn't conflict with the core design of the game, it is still the kind of thing that needs to be taken into careful consideration in regards to whether or not it has a place in the vanilla, unmodified version of the game.

Who gets to decide what is and isn't "the core design of the game"? A new character is a complete upheaval of the way the game fundamentally plays a lot of the time, and if you say "this character should be added permanently" in one of those instances, you are essentially arguing for the entire game to be given at-best a once-over, and at worst completely rebalanced to account for that character. How is that a smaller conflict than a menu toggle that enables or disables saving?

Once again you take what I am saying and go a whole different direction with it. All I was asking for was that you outline how your suggestion could actually be done. I never once stated anything along the lines of this being an infraction of the rules or anything. Is it really asking so much for you to try to be constructive?

If you actually wanted elaboration on how I wanted this, maybe you shouldn't have gone on the offensive right out the gate and accused me of trying to force other players into a structure of gameplay progression they weren't comfortable with?

And let's be honest, you've spent way more time calling any reply you don't like "disingenuous" than pushing for any "constructive" discourse yourself.

A strawman is a misrepresentation or distortion of what someone is saying because it's easier to debunk than their real argument. For instance, to imply that Chezi or I are against the game being changed in any way whatsoever, or that the "legitimacy" I was referring to was somehow based on my own standards and not those of the game itself.

I never implied that either of you were against that, only correctly stated that that was the logical conclusion your bad rhetoric suggested. And I never said your standard of "legitimacy" was outside that of the game, because the game doesn't have a standard. It's a video game, not a person. The standards of single player games are whatever you want them to be. It could only ever be personal.

A game without rules is not a game. All games have rules, single player or otherwise. These rules are very plain and obvious. In SRB2 for example, if you touch the sharp end of spikes, you get hurt. If you touch one ring, one ring gets added to your counter. If you break an invincibility monitor, you are granted temporary invincibility for about 20 seconds. You are tasked with getting to the goal of each level and defeating each boss within the rules the game establishes, and breaking these rules is cheating.

Wrong. These are not rules, they are laws. Rules are a thing you agree to to make sure a certain game is played a certain way, and punishing deviation. This is why sports are boring. A rule in SRB2 would be something like "don't be horny to people on public co-op servers". Nobody consents to all the enemies respawning when you use a bonfire in Dark Souls, and if something happened that made you get the health and estus regen without the respawn, you're not breaking a rule, you just got a lucky break to walk to the boss without having to fight all the enemies again.

Rules only matter if you're playing with other people, or if you're imposing them on yourself. Anything else, and you're trying to gatekeep how people play.

I'm not saying that playing with cheats enabled is "illegitimate" in the sense that you are in the wrong for doing it. Nobody cares if you are cheating in a single player game. We've all done it. Nobody is trying to act all holier than thou in that regard. What I am saying is that within the given ruleset established within the game itself, to use these cheats to bend around the conditions required to progress is treated as illegitimate progress due to the aforementioned cheating, and therefore doesn't count. To change this without mods would be to change the core design of how the game handles cheating, and undermines the entire point of there even being given conditions to progress to begin with.

There is no "given ruleset". There is only the rules that each player subconsciously constructs in their own minds. To suggest that someone who doesn't construct the same rules is going against the game is to delegitimize that person's experience. The game is not making demands of anyone here. It's not a human being.

Games are defined by their rules, not by how well you can snap those rules in half. Just because doing so is fun doesn't make the game about that.

Rules/laws difference as usual, but also, no. The game is about whatever players want it to be about or indeed make it about. If you define your experience by how hard you can break the game, that is what the game is about.

Take Team Fortress 2 for example. There is no multiplayer gameplay benefit to hoarding cosmetics and trading to get the rarest hats possible. But for someone, that is what that game is about. The game for another person is about nothing except the specific strategies and reflexes necessary to win a match. Both of these people are correct.

It's even simpler in a single player game, where nothing you do will alter the experience for other people. TF2 players have rules, because they have to be on equal footing. SRB2 has no rules, you can play it however you like and it will be as genuine an experience as anyone else, because that experience will always be personal to that specific player.

The only thing that you're doing wrong here is being a dick. The actual conversation is fine and it's probably worth all these words if it's something you both care about and have such strong opinions on, but wow, chill out and be respectful. You can disagree with someone and you can even vehemently disagree with someone without being sarcastic and dramatic like this.

I understand, I will take care to calm down in the future, but this is admittedly a pretty frustrating argument to deal with.

 

[time gear]

I understand, I will take care to calm down in the future, but this is admittedly a pretty frustrating argument to deal with.

I easily could just keep this up going right down the list again, but honestly the feeling within this quote is mutual and I'm not so petty as to insist on being the final word on every argument. With that in mind, I'd rather just stop with this pointless circular back and forth of neither of us getting anywhere with each other. You're not convincing me, I'm not convincing you, and we are both tired of it.

 

[A'Dilla]

That's a lot of words...
Anyways.....
Another shield suggestion for me is to change the force shield's Spin ability, because it feels useless to me. Maybe instead of only stopping you're momentum it can also push badniks away? Or Jump switch? Something like that.

 

[GrayAngel]

That's a lot of words...
Anyways.....
Another shield suggestion for me is to change the force shield's Spin ability, because it feels useless to me. Maybe instead of only stopping you're momentum it can also push badniks away? Or Jump switch? Something like that.

Apparently, the current Force Shield ability is a placeholder. It wasn't intended to stay that way, but it's just there to fill the void until they have something better to replace it with. Personally, I think giving it an insta-shield ability would work nicely, since the shield's primary usefulness is for defense. It takes two hits instead of one. Giving it the insta-shield ability would make it even better at avoiding damage.

 

[A'Dilla]

Apparently, the current Force Shield ability is a placeholder. It wasn't intended to stay that way, but it's just there to fill the void until they have something better to replace it with. Personally, I think giving it an insta-shield ability would work nicely, since the shield's primary usefulness is for defense. It takes two hits instead of one. Giving it the insta-shield ability would make it even better at avoiding damage.

Oh alright.

Also, Not sure about an insta-sheild ability. It would be a bit over powered.

And also I forgot to post my other suggestion, it would be nice to have the continues setup as 2.1 again. So when you get a game over but have continues, you only need to restart the act again like in 2.2. BUT when you have no more continues, you gain an extra one but have to restart the zone entirely. This may sound annoying for most people, but this actually gives the game more of a challenge instead of just infinite continues (with 2 extra lives then you had last time you got a game over might I add), with a small consequence.

 

[DiscardedBiscuit]

The insta-shields ability was that it could let you clip through projectiles and spikeballs for a split second, there's this increasing misconception that it could deflect projectiles away, this was only a mod to it inside of Sonic 3 Complete and AIR.

I think either of those would be a neat shield effect though the original behavior might not be expected for something called the "Force" shield.