Sonic's ability

[Pyrakid Wolfo]

If anyone has already made a thread about this cough cough please fix the search system so that i can actually find threads titled "thok" kthx

Anyway I think you guys are overthinking it. There's some kind of controversy on Sonic's ability and I honestly think that it's a pretty good ability.

1. It feels fluid and very fun to use when you're going fast. Speedrunning stages with this move feels fun, and its very balanced because if you mis-aim it near bottomless pits... you die. Is that a Sonic problem? LITERALLY NO, ITS THE LEVEL DESIGN. If the level design is going to punish you this hard for missing a jump, then its the level design.

2. I like that Sonic has an ability that makes him a blue blur, and it can even help with platforming sometimes. Sure, he's the titular character, but anyone can switch to Tails and Tails has always been the easiest char in the games. And "Sonic and Tails" (which is probably what every new player chooses) lets you skip over alot of platforming.

3. It's the players fault if they spam the thok. They could take things slower. I like that the character has a SKILL CEILING. His ability is harder to use, but can be really fun once mastered. And it's not TOO hard to use, or TOO complex, it just makes you boost forward.

---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 PM ----------

btw feel free to move or delete this if im dumb and this already exists

 

[cookiefonster]

This topic has been debated to death on the forums and Discord server (and to my knowledge, also within the dev team) and while I'll refrain from posting much in this thread, I do want to point out that the thok isn't exactly what I would call "fluid". It gives the exact same forward burst of speed regardless of whether you're standing still, running quickly, zooming from a spin dash, ascending a slope, wearing speed shoes, inside water or goop, which makes it feel very clunky and stiff, and honestly very dated compared to the other characters' much more momentum-oriented abilities.

 

[PencilVoid]

All I can think of to make the Thok more fluid is to have it redirect the player's momentum instead if they're moving faster than their actionspd.

 

[Unknownlight]

This topic has been debated to death on the forums and Discord server (and to my knowledge, also within the dev team) and while I'll refrain from posting much in this thread, I do want to point out that the thok isn't exactly what I would call "fluid". It gives the exact same forward burst of speed regardless of whether you're standing still, running quickly, zooming from a spin dash, ascending a slope, wearing speed shoes, inside water or goop, which makes it feel very clunky and stiff, and honestly very dated compared to the other characters' much more momentum-oriented abilities.

While I'm all on board with changing Sonic's ability, I strongly disagree this being a bad thing. The thok's consistency and predictability is arguably its greatest strength.

Judging by the results of STJr's Twitter poll, much of the community agrees that the thok is the most fun ability in the game. The issue with the thok is how difficult it is for new players to use (and presumably how it might not fit with the upcoming physics rework), not with the thok itself. The thok is great.

It's really important that Sonic ends up with a fun ability, not just a easy-to-use or balanced one.

 

[Charonik08]

While I'm all on board with changing Sonic's ability, I strongly disagree this being a bad thing. The thok's consistency and predictability is arguably its greatest strength.

Judging by the results of STJr's Twitter poll, much of the community agrees that the thok is the most fun ability in the game. The issue with the thok is how difficult it is for new players to use (and presumably how it might not fit with the upcoming physics rework), not with the thok itself. The thok is great.

It's really important that Sonic ends up with a fun ability, not just a easy-to-use or balanced one.

I can’t express how much I agree with this. Although I also don’t wanna post much on this specific thread, this practically sums the situation up.

The Thok itself is a great ability in concept and in practice. It offers the speed based move that is perfectly fit for Sonic’s fast pace. A instant burst of moment is right up Sonic’s ally and you’d think it does it’s job well. In reality, kinda. While yes the ability is perfectly fine when it comes to doing its job of increasing your momentum so you start off fast, it fails at being intuitive to a new player and if anything, is worse than not using any ability at all. This is an ability that is supposed to be used as a speed boost to start you off, or redirect you in a direction so you could maintain your speed. It’s not supposed to be a spammy ability in which you gain momentum infinitely and you bank it off angled slopes and stuff to get height in a un-natural way, yet that’s exactly what it is, and that’s not clear to a beginner.

I think what OP meant by fluid, is the way you use it in your experience in a non-planned fashion. The Thok is most commonly used in a precise, and accurate manner, in which if you fail a “correct” Thok, you are punished for seemingly a “wrong” Thok, albeit sometimes you get a somewhat fluid Thok. The problem is that a ability for Sonic should be fluent in the sense that you can come up with speedy paths and shortcuts on the fly. Like, come on, he’s Sonic, the fastest thing alive, he practically does everything on the fly because of how fast he is! The Thok doesn’t allow for this and therefore beginners are confused at the possibilities the Thok has to bring because they are too precise, and in this sense, it’s clunky. (And this alongside the new engine is why the Thok is most likely getting removed from Sonic’s arsenal.)

Yes, the Thok itself it’s perfectly fine, but is it truly a fun ability? For some it is, but for the majority it’s most understandably not.

 

[Pyrakid Wolfo]

I would have thought if being fun was the best thing it had going for it. Anyway I agree with how its consistency and predictability is great. You're rewarded for aiming, and I never feel like I should never use it, even then an ability that you use ALL THE TIME isnt really that good either. There's a time and place for everything. You still use everyone's ability often, but none of the abilities are OP or anything. It feels really fun to zoom around with the thok and since ive gotten used to it, I think it's not really difficult to use. Then again I use Simple mode so I can aim it wherever i want. standard is dumb lol

 

[Soufon]

All I can think of to make the Thok more fluid is to have it redirect the player's momentum instead if they're moving faster than their actionspd.

Honestly, this would probably be enough to make the move itself "viable" in post-2.3 SRB2.

I don't really have any ideas for what a better, more newcomer friendly Sonic ability would look like, maybe besides the modern games' combo of double jump + homing attack.

 

[time gear]

We're doing another of these threads? Well, okay. Sure. Well, I guess I do have an update on my perspective. I guess I'll just share that here since this thread is shiny and new.

Initially I was strongly against making Sonic's ability the double jump or some variation of it, but recently I've been warming up to the idea of making it some variation of the double jump, just not... Exactly the double jump itself. A few ideas I had in this direction are as follows:

• Triple Jump: Sonic's jump height is halved, but his second jump brings him up to just as high as Tails' jump height. He also has access to a third jump which gives him just as much additional height as the first, totaling to 1.5 times Tails' jump height. This would give Sonic the most control over his jumps out of the main trio and would allow him to be quite mobile in the air without it being uncharacteristic to his character.
• Wall Jump: Sonic can grip walls and leap off them, but only twice per jump. This doesn't allow him to reach the same heights as Knuckles but would allow him to get to some higher areas if they are designed for it.
• Slowfall leap: After jumping, the player can press jump in the air again to begin a slowfall. Sonic is uncurled while in this state, his entire body horizontally riding the air. While in this state, the player can jump again to curl back up get some added height. After the second jump, the player can only fall.

Also, I do enjoy thok in the game, so under the assumption that they aren't going to add an entire new character just for thok and as such will move it to Metal, here's a (very slightly revised) suggestion I came up with for a moveset revamp for Metal that didn't get any feedback in the actual suggestions thread and might be more appropriate in one of these "What to do with the thok" threads anyway:

• Hover is moved to spin. It replaces non-passive shield abilities entirely, so he always has access to it at the cost of never having shield mobility.
• Hover is given a meter. It instantly recharges when you touch ground, but you only have a combined 10 seconds of hover time per jump. You can still use it multiple times per jump, but it costs a bit extra every time after the first, so trying to spam this to get around the meter cost will actually cost more than just using the meter normally. The meter is infinite while Super.
• Hover no longer enters slow fall when moving too slow, however coming to a dead stop will drop you.
• Thok becomes his primary air ability. You cannot both thok and hover in the same jump unless Super.
• Metal cannot spindash, but instead has the peelout. He can get under tight spaces while in boost mode. Just like before with the spindash, fully charging the peelout will activate boost mode. This also means pressing spin while "running" doesn't cause him to roll into a ball.
• Metal can stand/run on lava without taking a hit, but will have his rings drained at a speed of 5 per second unless Super or in boost mode. If he has no rings, he dies like any other character. He also has a sparking visual effect while his rings are being drained.
• Metal can breath underwater infinitely, but still undergoes the countdown. At the end of the countdown, Metal will lose all his rings and will be unable to pick up more until he leaves the water or touches a bubble, leaving him vulnerable to attack. He still gets the sparking effect when the countdown begins, and remains sparking until he leaves the water or touches a bubble.
• Metal can breath in a vacuum infinitely, but is unable to thok or hover and experiences a ring drain of 2 per second. If he is Super, this is ignored.
• If Metal has a shield that allows him to breath, the previous two points are ignored and he functions like any other character underwater or in a vacuum.

 

[Shaddy the guy]

I think that even if Sonic isn't the easiest character, he definitely shouldn't be the hardest, and he should most importantly be simple. The problem with a lot of the fanmade abilities is that they come from the perspective of people who already were looking for something other than the thok (also, jesus fuck, what an awful name for an ability, rename it).

There's a reason a lot of people never even knew what the insta-shield did in Sonic 3, it's not easy to understand just by looking and the game doesn't provide an immediate obvious use for it. The thok does do this, but it's relatively uncontrollable to newcomers. I certainly didn't figure out how to use it for a long time back in 2007. I think that either a double jump or a legitimate homing attack is the best Sonic is going to get.

I'm leaning towards double jump, since it should be able to provide a recovery action for Sonic, and the game isn't really designed around homing attacks, but I also think the game's physics aren't really suited for it and might want to wait for the big under-the-hood physics change to see for sure.

 

[Unknownlight]

That's really what it comes down to, yeah. It's impossible to know what would be a good ability for Sonic until we can play around with the new physics.

Devs, once you guys have a decent idea of how the new physics will work, can you release a Lua script for it so people can provide feedback?

 

[GeorgeMP]

This topic has been debated to death on the forums and Discord server (and to my knowledge, also within the dev team) and while I'll refrain from posting much in this thread, I do want to point out that the thok isn't exactly what I would call "fluid". It gives the exact same forward burst of speed regardless of whether you're standing still, running quickly, zooming from a spin dash, ascending a slope, wearing speed shoes, inside water or goop, which makes it feel very clunky and stiff, and honestly very dated compared to the other characters' much more momentum-oriented abilities.

PSA: Taste is subjective

 

[cookiefonster]

PSA: Taste is subjective

No one was saying taste isn't subjective, and I'm not quite sure pointing this out brings anything meaningful to the table. I just said the thok isn't what I would call fluid.

 

[Simon_T]

Oh well, here we go again...

I personally dislike the Thok, since it feels pretty useless when compared to Tails' flight, Knuckles' gliding and climbing and MS's hovering

Even a simple double jump like in Sonic R would be a better option for him, or...

...Why not that Jump-Thok thing that is unused since it's introduction?

I feel the Jump-Thok as an more useful version of the Thok, balancing speed and a bit of vertical mobility

 

[Charonik08]

Oh well, here we go again...

I personally dislike the Thok, since it feels pretty useless when compared to Tails' flight, Knuckles' gliding and climbing and MS's hovering

Even a simple double jump like in Sonic R would be a better option for him, or...

...Why not that Jump-Thok thing that is unused since it's introduction?

I feel the Jump-Thok as an more useful version of the Thok, balancing speed and a bit of vertical mobility

Hmm, I’ve never thought about it this way and... yeah, it kinda is a good solution. The higher vertical movement would decrease spam, would give me more vertical mobility, make him more “fluid”, beginner friendly and would still make him the speedy hedgehog he is.