Sonic Robo Blast 2 Pet Peeves

DrStephen

My PhD is made out of foam.
Judge
Man, SRB2 pet peeves? Off the top of my head I've got a few.

1 - That one segment in DSZ2 that will softlock you if you're unable to either spindash or break floors. Y'know the one. Underwater, you have to either break a floor or spindash in that conveyor belt thing. It's a cool idea, dont get me wrong - but due to that existing every single modded character HAS to be able to either spindash* or break floors just so you can get through that route without softlocking yourself (Because when you drop into this segment, you're unable to return unless you can fly or something similar). It's a major nitpick, and one I don't actually want to see changed due to it being designed for vanilla characters of course, but it bothers me that I always have to conform to this norm just so my characters don't have a chance to get softlocked lol.

*I say spindash and not just spinning because only the spindash can trigger the conveyor belt. Spinning normally does not, meaning if you're able to spin but not spindash, you're stuck.

2 - Emblem rewards are spaced out in a really weird manner. Some make sense, 40 emblems for the hints then 80 for the radar for example. But then you have stuff like Techno Legacy being the 100 emblems reward, which is a little funny considering how outdated it is (which yes, I get is the point of it). But the strangest choice in my opinion is the 200 emblems reward. Ignoring Pandora's Box for a second, what the fuck is Level Select doing here? At this point you most definitely have at least a beaten save file per character, maybe even with all the emeralds too, which completely invalidates the necessity for Level Select. Why not have it much, MUCH earlier? It'd help a ton with emblem hunting, especially if you, lets say, are missing a Fang emblem in a late game level, but you don't have a complete Fang playthrough? Wouldn't it be better and faster to be able to go to that specific level then?
Pandora's Box, I understand, it's straight up cheat codes to mess with the game after you've mastered it. Though personally I use it for debugging and playtesting my mods hehe. Level Select though? Bump that down to a much earlier point so I actually have a reason to use it.

3 - Odd request, another major nitpick, but why exactly does the multiplayer player select use the character's Shield Scale to decide their size in the menu? Shifting through characters with varying sizes due to their shield scale makes some tall characters look miniscule, especially HiRes characters. It'd be cool to have a new S_SKIN value that lets us customize their Player Select scale.

4 - I remember NiGHTS mode used to not be able to be played with other characters other than Sonic, which was added in an update. Buuut the Super Sonic icon remains no matter what character you're playing as. I'd just like to see the icon change depending on who you choose to play as, thats all :P

5 - Speaking of, goddamn is it annoying to not be able to even PLAY the extra modes if you've loaded an addon. I get it, you're not meant to be able to use addons to potentially cheat your records and stuff, but come on, don't lock me out entirely! Just remove the ability to track my progress, sure, treat it as a No Save version of NiGHTS, Record Attack, Marathon Run, etc. Locking me out of these is annoying. I wanna have my time tracked with a custom character without needing to add a custom save file addon. I can't even check my Statistics? The literal only extra mode you can play with addons is the Tutorial.

6 - i miss you race-exclusive stages
 

Shaddy the guy

Professional ass-merchant
I’m not sure you really understand what we’re trying to say. The homing attack is an alternative that works for games since Adventure because there’s no easy way to aim your attacks. SRB2 doesn’t need it because it is easier to line up and use your attacks because it’s built off of a First Person Shooter. Aiming the Thok is like aiming a gun.
Okay, so assuming that's true (it isn't), ask yourself why they want to replace it. Exactly what about SRB2 makes it easier to aim than Adventure 1? I certainly don't think that's true, SA1 has way tighter movements from where I'm sitting. They're working on restructuring the regular physics of the game, so obviously the floaty movement SRB2 has now isn't perfect to the devs. Who gets to decide what's easier?
When SRB2 is trying to be different and provide new experiences not found in official Sonic games, I don’t think they’d put in the homing attack because they already know what works
Ooooookay, exactly what separates a "new experience" that we should have from an old experience we should keep? Why have rings? Boss fights? Why keep Sonic blue? He's blue in every Sonic game, they can go to one of those if those hippie blue-lovers like that color so much, we're trying to do something different here.

Correct me if im wrong-
But Sonic's ability is going to be replaced, yeah, but i don't see how a homing attack could work on a game that is going to the momentum routes.
The homing attack is just a way to limit Sonic's speed, by going into enemies rather than give you speed like the Thok
I'm not sure what "going to the momentum routes" is supposed to mean, but the homing attack isn't exactly alien to any Sonic game that has physics, is it? There's nothing so special about SRB2's use of slopes that the homing attack would break it.
 

Chezi

Chili Dogs
Okay, so assuming that's true (it isn't), ask yourself why they want to replace it. Exactly what about SRB2 makes it easier to aim than Adventure 1? I certainly don't think that's true, SA1 has way tighter movements from where I'm sitting. They're working on restructuring the regular physics of the game, so obviously the floaty movement SRB2 has now isn't perfect to the devs. Who gets to decide what's easier?

Ooooookay, exactly what separates a "new experience" that we should have from an old experience we should keep? Why have rings? Boss fights? Why keep Sonic blue? He's blue in every Sonic game, they can go to one of those if those hippie blue-lovers like that color so much, we're trying to do something different here.


I'm not sure what "going to the momentum routes" is supposed to mean, but the homing attack isn't exactly alien to any Sonic game that has physics, is it? There's nothing so special about SRB2's use of slopes that the homing attack would break it.
The short and sweet is that the homing attack doesn’t help Sonic with momentum and that’s why the Thok exists right now.
 

Shaddy the guy

Professional ass-merchant
The short and sweet is that the homing attack doesn’t help Sonic with momentum and that’s why the Thok exists right now.
Says who? Maybe the current implementation in SRB2 isn't very strong, but I was never defending that. You get plenty of momentum from the basic air dash in most Sonic games. Just because SRB2's catapults you at maximum speed doesn't mean the other games' iterations are worthless for it, and neither determines what's actually best for the game or answers why Sonic's air ability is getting changed.
 

Chezi

Chili Dogs
Says who? Maybe the current implementation in SRB2 isn't very strong, but I was never defending that. You get plenty of momentum from the basic air dash in most Sonic games. Just because SRB2's catapults you at maximum speed doesn't mean the other games' iterations are worthless for it, and neither determines what's actually best for the game or answers why Sonic's air ability is getting changed.
I’m not defending the Thok right now. I’m saying the Homing Attack is not the best option and that the Thok fits Sonic better in a momentum based setting. Obviously we can get something better than the Thok, but that something isn’t the homing attack
 
Pet Peeve #uncounted

moving snow in frozen hillside.
If you get into certain corners with Amy in parts with moving snow, you will be forced to Retry (if you have lives) or quit, since no matter what, Amy just cant get out of certain corners because the snow is MOVING

HOW DOES MOVING SNOW EVEN WORK
WHY DOES IT WORK, it doesnt even need to, honestly frozen hillside is prolly my least favorite bonus level but i mean forest fortress i dont really like either but i dont think either level is bad, maybe Mario Koopa Blast is my favorite since techno legacy is just incorrect.
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
Just because SRB2's catapults you at maximum speed doesn't mean the other games' iterations are worthless for it, and neither determines what's actually best for the game or answers why Sonic's air ability is getting changed.
I’m not defending the Thok right now. I’m saying the Homing Attack is not the best option and that the Thok fits Sonic better in a momentum based setting. Obviously we can get something better than the Thok, but that something isn’t the homing attack
I feel as though this argument has started to miss the point of why Sonic's air ability is being changed to begin with. From what I remember of my conversations with Mystic about it, the sentiments that lead to the decision weren't coming from an anti-thok mindset, but rather the mindset that Sonic himself being the title character should have an ability less skill based and more friendly to first time players. This is often where the idea of passing on the Thok to Metal Sonic comes from, as the Thok itself was never seen as a problem and there was no need to outright remove it from the game.

As such, Sonic's ability isn't being changed because of anything being wrong with the Thok in a general sense, but rather to make Sonic himself more of an "easy mode" type character to compare to Tails and Knuckles, who are also available right off the bat. The idea is that his ability should be swapped out to something that allows the player to navigate through stages in a way that causes them to feel in control, without accidentally thokking themselves off a cliff or into spikes or etc. The Double Jump has been considered for this, but is probably the most cliché, boring option possible and as such generates some hesitation.
 

Chezi

Chili Dogs
I feel as though this argument has started to miss the point of why Sonic's air ability is being changed to begin with. From what I remember of my conversations with Mystic about it, the sentiments that lead to the decision weren't coming from an anti-thok mindset, but rather the mindset that Sonic himself being the title character should have an ability less skill based and more friendly to first time players. This is often where the idea of passing on the Thok to Metal Sonic comes from, as the Thok itself was never seen as a problem and there was no need to outright remove it from the game.

As such, Sonic's ability isn't being changed because of anything being wrong with the Thok in a general sense, but rather to make Sonic himself more of an "easy mode" type character to compare to Tails and Knuckles, who are also available right off the bat. The idea is that his ability should be swapped out to something that allows the player to navigate through stages in a way that causes them to feel in control, without accidentally thokking themselves off a cliff or into spikes or etc. The Double Jump has been considered for this, but is probably the most cliché, boring option possible and as such generates some hesitation.
Oh yeah, I’m totally aware of this issue. That’s why when I say “something better than the Thok,” I mean something that feels like a more natural source of speed like the Peel-Out or the Drop Dash from CD and Mania. Obviously, I don’t want those specifically in SRB2, but something along those lines would work for the casual audience while also providing something useful for the more hardcore audience. The homing attack would be easy to implement, but it isn’t the most creative either. It’s honestly more boring than a double jump
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
Oh yeah, I’m totally aware of this issue. That’s why when I say “something better than the Thok,” I mean something that feels like a more natural source of speed like the Peel-Out or the Drop Dash from CD and Mania. Obviously, I don’t want those specifically in SRB2, but something along those lines would work for the casual audience while also providing something useful for the more hardcore audience. The homing attack would be easy to implement, but it isn’t the most creative either. It’s honestly more boring than a double jump
As Mystic used to put it, the problem with the Homing Attack is more that it encourages more linear "line of enemies" type design the likes of which is seen in the Adventure series and boost games. By not giving Sonic the ability to easily destroy lines of enemies without effort, level designers are challenged to find other ways to direct the player towards progress through the level.

Personally, I feel as though the homing attack could fit, but I've already covered how in several of my recent posts in this topic. Just because the it encourages a particular type of level design doesn't mean that the levels need to actually be designed that way alongside it's implementation. My main problem with it is more the idea of it being Sonic's main midair ability in replacement of the thok, as if it homes in at a set speed it will either stifle momentum entirely after bouncing straight up a set distance as in the official titles, or will bounce off an enemy with far less momentum than the player had before homing. If it doesn't have a set speed and doesn't bounce up a set distance, it will actually be far more troublesome to use than thok for the same purpose of getting around due to it's forcefully changed direction.
 

Shaddy the guy

Professional ass-merchant
I’m not defending the Thok right now. I’m saying the Homing Attack is not the best option and that the Thok fits Sonic better in a momentum based setting. Obviously we can get something better than the Thok, but that something isn’t the homing attack
Okay, but again, what counts as a "momentum based setting"? Most Sonic games have momentum of some sort, and there's nothing so special about SRB2's use of slopes (right now) that the homing attack would be as destructive as you seem to think.

And yeah, I knew about the hopes for Sonic to be easier, and I think that's inevitably going to come with whatever his new ability is not being as powerful or unwieldy as the thok, which means that arguing the idea of it being better because it can be most effectively utilized for speed and momentum is kind of pointless. I'm not actually here to shit on the thok for anything but its stupid, stupid name.
 

Chezi

Chili Dogs
Okay, but again, what counts as a "momentum based setting"? Most Sonic games have momentum of some sort, and there's nothing so special about SRB2's use of slopes (right now) that the homing attack would be as destructive as you seem to think.

And yeah, I knew about the hopes for Sonic to be easier, and I think that's inevitably going to come with whatever his new ability is not being as powerful or unwieldy as the thok, which means that arguing the idea of it being better because it can be most effectively utilized for speed and momentum is kind of pointless. I'm not actually here to shit on the thok for anything but its stupid, stupid name.
The Boost games aren’t based on momentum and they rely on the homing attack for a lot of gimmicks. It’s not that extreme in the Adventure Era games, but they still do that line of enemies in the air thing
 

Shaddy the guy

Professional ass-merchant
The Boost games aren’t based on momentum and they rely on the homing attack for a lot of gimmicks. It’s not that extreme in the Adventure Era games, but they still do that line of enemies in the air thing
Okay, and? That doesn't mean it's inherent to it, or that a game that does do that suddenly doesn't have momentum.
 

GrayAngel

Member
The attraction shield found underwater does have a legitimate mechanic that allows you to take advantage of it. Try locating a nearby invincibility monitor and experiment!

My mans. They supposed to be used with invincibility
GD3MYRN.gif


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That's a lot of work (and memorization) for very little reward...
 
Daaang, the Thok is getting replaced? Aww I love that thing. Was tricky at first, but honestly I found it to be my favorite ability over time.
Post automatically merged:

"Yes, a star post, finally I—oh it's already flashing..."
LMAO This was my only pet peeve! But honestly vanished after a couple replays.
 
Pet peeve: Post-v2.0 Brak Eggman is boring. 2.0's Brak was a much more engaging boss battle. 2.1 Brak is just the Cyberdemon from Doom but with extra steps. The whole fight consists of waiting around for slow-ass Brak to step in the goop, dodge his attack, rinse and repeat 12 times. The Cyberdemon didn't have this problem because in Doom, you were constantly attacking it with all your firepower while quickly manuvering around him. If you weren't careful, you could die in one blast, sometimes from your own weapon even! Brak doesn't have this. 2.0 Brak on the other hand, has you jumping on his head to deal damage for the first few attacks. After a while, he starts firing cannonballs which you have to dodge. Then he'll use his glue attack, which if you aren't fast enough will get you killed as he'll jump at you while you're stuck, potentially throwing you off the platform and into the death pit below. He also will shoot white missiles at you, which you can jump onto and redirect back at him. Halfway through the fight, the lowered middle platform of five total collapses, meaning you have to jump onto his missiles to do damage. He also gets much more aggressive, not using his cannon anymore and instead resorting to his potentially-fatal glue attack. If you can manage to dodge his attacks and land 8 hits, you can defeat him. This version of the fight is so much more engaging and interactive than the new "dodge and wait" Brak we have now.
 
  1. The point of those gargoyles is as timing challenges, which Azure Temple sometimes pulls off well, sometimes not so well. Some of the hallways with the fire gargoyles are interesting challenges, but others I just have no idea how to get through unharmed, like the ones where fire is shot from the sides and in front of you at the same time.
Yup, for the ring emblem I had to get a force shield and get really really lucky, because when fire is being shot from literally every angle i just cant avoid everything. After several tries I finally did it though :)
I was super close to 200 emblems so I wasnt gonna just give up. And now I have 200 emblems!
 

GrayAngel

Member
Pet peeve: Post-v2.0 Brak Eggman is boring. 2.0's Brak was a much more engaging boss battle. 2.1 Brak is just the Cyberdemon from Doom but with extra steps. The whole fight consists of waiting around for slow-ass Brak to step in the goop, dodge his attack, rinse and repeat 12 times. The Cyberdemon didn't have this problem because in Doom, you were constantly attacking it with all your firepower while quickly manuvering around him. If you weren't careful, you could die in one blast, sometimes from your own weapon even! Brak doesn't have this. 2.0 Brak on the other hand, has you jumping on his head to deal damage for the first few attacks. After a while, he starts firing cannonballs which you have to dodge. Then he'll use his glue attack, which if you aren't fast enough will get you killed as he'll jump at you while you're stuck, potentially throwing you off the platform and into the death pit below. He also will shoot white missiles at you, which you can jump onto and redirect back at him. Halfway through the fight, the lowered middle platform of five total collapses, meaning you have to jump onto his missiles to do damage. He also gets much more aggressive, not using his cannon anymore and instead resorting to his potentially-fatal glue attack. If you can manage to dodge his attacks and land 8 hits, you can defeat him. This version of the fight is so much more engaging and interactive than the new "dodge and wait" Brak we have now.

Eh. You're entitled to your opinion, but 2.0 Brak is highly unintuitive. There's always going to be some trial and error when fighting a boss for the first time, but the mechanics should always be intuitive. Ideally, the game will teach the player how to handle a situation by the time they really need to apply it. What about the game tells the player to jump on a missile attack? Missiles normally harm the player, so why would they even think of doing that? Maybe if they've seen the OVA, it might occur to them to try this, but I watched the OVA religiously when I was a kid, and I still had to look up the boss battle online to figure out what I was supposed to do.

This isn't the only Sonic game to have missiles used against the boss, though. In Sonic 3 & Knuckles, during the Super/Hyper Sonic boss, guided missiles would follow the player, and guiding the missiles to hit the boss damaged them. If the player didn't think to try this on purpose, the invulnerability of the boss to normal attacks would have them circling the boss, looking for some sort of a weakness. First time I figured it out was by complete accident, when moving circles around the boss caused a missile to hit him. This isn't ideal, but at least a player could reasonably be expected to discover the solution.

Sonic Advance 2, if memory serves, also had the missiles used against the Super Sonic boss. This time, the player would dash into the missiles to send them back. Similar to the S3&K final boss, the player could reasonably be expected to figure this out on their own. Being Super, the player has invincibility, which means the player feels more comfortable to experiment. Yet they also have a time limit urging them to find a solution fast. Introducing new mechanics during the final boss is in itself problematic, but that's another discussion.

Next, there's Sonic Mania. This time, the game uses the turn the missile back to sender idea, but without Super Sonic. This time, there are two types of missiles. There are the normal kind that hurt you, and there are the big ones you can jump on. Since there are two types of missiles, this leads the player to think, "What's different about the blue ones?" There are also some subconscious hints that jumping on the blue missiles might be a good idea. First, the hurty missiles are sharper and meaner looking in design, while the not hurty missiles are rounder and less threatening. Even if the player doesn't think to jump on the blue missiles at first, eventually, they'll realize that the boss is out of reach and isn't showing any weak points. Naturally, their lack of options will lead to them doing one of the few things they can do, which is jump on the missile.

2.0 Brak had none of that. And that's just one of the new mechanics the boss introduced. If I recall correctly, the player was supposed to jump onto Brak's head and stay there until Brak lifted his arm to attack, thereby making him smack himself. This is another thing the player could not be expected to figure out, unless of course they watched the OVA. Lots of bosses and challenges of that era of SRB2 were unintuitive like this. The player often had to rely on blind luck or else just brute force the boss and hope they killed the boss before losing a life. The new bosses have attack patterns and clear weaknesses. They're easier, yes, but for the right reasons. The bosses are actually fair now. ...For the most part. Metal Sonic and Brak both use random behaviors that make them impossible to predict, and can lead to cheap deaths sometimes, but Brak is, at least in my opinion, a big improvement over his past versions.

TLDR: SRB2 used to be a fun novelty, but now it actually uses good game design. Now I actually find myself recommending it to friends. If old Brak were still in it, that might not be the case.
 
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Saturn Ross

The Local Bird-Brain
I don't have too many nitpicks all things considered, but the ones I do got would be...

- No alternate game modes with addons loaded. I know the current workaround is to use a .soc, but... that extra step does get pretty annoying especially when you just want to try, say, Marathon Mode with a character mod. On a similar note that was pointed out earlier here, the NiGHTs mode icon being only Sonic even when you swap character is a bit sad. I love that extra detail the other menus have for swapping characters, having it in NiGHTs mode would help make things more complete! Going onto another thing I think can be more complete...

- Shield sprites and abilities. Attraction and Armageddon are awesome to use as is, and I love the update to let you chain Atrraction's Homing Attack. It's like 3D Blast's Golden Shield given new life! I also love the 3&K shields, but... where's the love for Force and Elemental? Force looks cool at first but admittedly looks pretty weird next to the other shields, and it's ability is lackluster. I get an air brake is useful at times, but so is holding the direction opposite your current direction. I only really use the air brake when playing with a momentum mod as it's much more effective in that setting where you're literally too fast to control. I remember a mod for it made it push enemies back? I just think it needs polish. The Elemental Shield though... fire aside it looks like crap. It needs a smoothing out, and it just looks... unfinished. The ability too, it feels like something should happen after the drop. It doesn't need to be the Drop Dash, but... maybe a horizontal bounce? A wider circle of flames when hitting the ground? Anything new. Logan McCloud's edited shields from his old MD2 pack looked godly, I'd love to see a look like that in the future. This bit is also likely an OpenGL bug, but both Elemental and Armageddon shields have these lines going through them while the rest don't.

- Some camera control tweaks would be perfect. Playing in Simple with a PS4 controller feels great, but the camera is a bit tough to get following just right. CobaltBW had a new camera control concept on his Twitter that I really liked for instance! And the more important nitpick IMO... when locking on to a boss, the lock-on disappears the second you hit the boss and it can be disorienting trying to snap the camera back to the right position. I'd love to just keep a lock on the boss like Adventure 1!
 

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