Yeah, sorry, that's a known problem. A similar thing happens when Modern Sonic homing attacks on them, or Silver tries to grab them with telekinesis. The GUN robots aren't 100% complete yet.
- Thread starter Garrean
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tabu
Member
Other than that the mechs are really polished. I like how quick they are on the draw and how big and heavy their 'bullets' feel. They feel more threatening and balanced than in SA2, and a lot of vanilla SRB2 enemies for that matter. Do you have plans to add the laser/shield variants?
RetroRampage37
Member
Since I haven't seen any discussion on how much the spindash changes have broken the balance aside from my own comment, I would at the very least like to suggest an option to choose which kind of spindash-style you have. Ever since it's been changed to be as OP as it is, I have lost all motivation to speedrun these stages. I hate to say that because this is such a well-crafted mod, but the changes really killed the fun for me :(
I don't really agree that the new spindash is that overpowered? I think it's still just as strategic, it's just strategy that you have to apply on the fly, rather than getting the opportunity to stop and plan. Which I think is more engaging, because it means if you want to optimize your movement, you have to keep on going without getting a moment to breathe.
There's still a penalty, and it's just the inherent fact that it's harder to control a character that's moving at higher speeds. The inability to uncurl out of a roll is part of this. (Which isn't even than much of a downside really, because you can effectively accomplish the same thing by jumping out of a roll.) You have to be careful with how you maneuver, lest you fall off a cliff or hit a wall or something because you were moving too fast.
Plus, it's not like the levels have become spamdash to win: there are still lots of places where the spindash isn't optimal movement, since there's a bunch of platforming in these stages, on top of the fact that the speed levels are mainly downhill, and when you're rolling down a slope, you actually don't want to press the spindash because it'll reset you back to max speed if you've ascended beyond max speed. You'll notice that City Escape and Radical Highway's time emblems have only decreased by 10-20 seconds, because the spindash doesn't actually give you that much of an advantage.
Effectively, I think the only real thing the spindash changes do is make sections that would otherwise be glorified hallways more engaging, by forcing you actually press buttons to navigate them optimally, rather than just having to hold forward and vaguely steer yourself.
(Also, I don't get what you mean by it being more broken than SA1? It is basically the same, I don't see how it's any more exploitable than SA1.)
There's still a penalty, and it's just the inherent fact that it's harder to control a character that's moving at higher speeds. The inability to uncurl out of a roll is part of this. (Which isn't even than much of a downside really, because you can effectively accomplish the same thing by jumping out of a roll.) You have to be careful with how you maneuver, lest you fall off a cliff or hit a wall or something because you were moving too fast.
Plus, it's not like the levels have become spamdash to win: there are still lots of places where the spindash isn't optimal movement, since there's a bunch of platforming in these stages, on top of the fact that the speed levels are mainly downhill, and when you're rolling down a slope, you actually don't want to press the spindash because it'll reset you back to max speed if you've ascended beyond max speed. You'll notice that City Escape and Radical Highway's time emblems have only decreased by 10-20 seconds, because the spindash doesn't actually give you that much of an advantage.
Effectively, I think the only real thing the spindash changes do is make sections that would otherwise be glorified hallways more engaging, by forcing you actually press buttons to navigate them optimally, rather than just having to hold forward and vaguely steer yourself.
(Also, I don't get what you mean by it being more broken than SA1? It is basically the same, I don't see how it's any more exploitable than SA1.)
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RetroRampage37
Member
The reason the new spindash is overpowered and more broken than in SA1 is because these stages were not designed with that kind of instant speed in mind. The original SA2 stages were made with a specific moveset in mind, and these adaptations were also made with specific movement in mind. And all of a sudden because people didn't like that the spindash actually required careful planning and thinking about when to use it, it was changed to be spamabble and usable in every scenario. roll in ball when going downhill, run when going uphill. this is basic sonic momentum 101 and this completely breaks that fundamental aspect.
Spamming the spindash button over and over isn't engaging or fun, it doesn't take any skill or planning. It flies in the face of what makes sonic platforming so unique, the momentum-based platforming. You don't need to think about when to use the spindash, because the answer is ALWAYS yes. You can shoot off in any direction instantly with no downsides. Speed should make it harder to steer but the spamdash just ignores that.
There was a reason the spamdash was removed for the original SA2, and I think it's better than SA1 in that regard even with the delayed startup.
But regardless, if people like this change, fine. I would at the very least like for an option or a mod that lets me restore the original. The spindash changes were enough for me to completely stop playing this mod when I was having so much fun speedrunning it before.
Spamming the spindash button over and over isn't engaging or fun, it doesn't take any skill or planning. It flies in the face of what makes sonic platforming so unique, the momentum-based platforming. You don't need to think about when to use the spindash, because the answer is ALWAYS yes. You can shoot off in any direction instantly with no downsides. Speed should make it harder to steer but the spamdash just ignores that.
There was a reason the spamdash was removed for the original SA2, and I think it's better than SA1 in that regard even with the delayed startup.
But regardless, if people like this change, fine. I would at the very least like for an option or a mod that lets me restore the original. The spindash changes were enough for me to completely stop playing this mod when I was having so much fun speedrunning it before.
I don't quite get what you mean? The spamdash is stronger, but I can't think of a single instance where it actively breaks the level, rather than just, letting you move through an area faster. You still have to navigate through the actual level design, you still have to do platforming segments, it's not like it's Sonic Frontiers where you press the button and you go flying above the entire level. (In fact, if you look in the code, the spamdash maxspeed is actually nerfed from the old spindash, so there's even less potential to skip over areas than before.)
It's interesting that you bring up the "roll in ball when going downhill, run when going uphill" part, because that effectively still applies here. Rolling allows you to exceed even max spamdash speed, so it's the same there. And for uphill, if you think of the spamdash as an alternative for running, it's still the same; effectively as if Sonic and Shadow's runspeed was bumped up.
Except if it was literally just that their runspeed was increased, it would be annoying because you couldn't avoid the increase. At least in this case you have the option to choose between going on foot if you want to be more precise with your movements, or spamdashing if you just want to keep moving, which I think is valuable because there's a lot of downtime in these stages where you're doing nothing but holding forward, (the lit-up hallways in Radical Highway come to mind, for one) which I think is just as, if not more, unengaging than at least having the spamdash to get you through it faster.
Anyways, there are no plans to patch Demo 1, but if you want to revert to the old spindash, you could always take the Lua/Abilities/spamdash.lua in the v1.2 pk3, and put it into the latest version.
It's interesting that you bring up the "roll in ball when going downhill, run when going uphill" part, because that effectively still applies here. Rolling allows you to exceed even max spamdash speed, so it's the same there. And for uphill, if you think of the spamdash as an alternative for running, it's still the same; effectively as if Sonic and Shadow's runspeed was bumped up.
Except if it was literally just that their runspeed was increased, it would be annoying because you couldn't avoid the increase. At least in this case you have the option to choose between going on foot if you want to be more precise with your movements, or spamdashing if you just want to keep moving, which I think is valuable because there's a lot of downtime in these stages where you're doing nothing but holding forward, (the lit-up hallways in Radical Highway come to mind, for one) which I think is just as, if not more, unengaging than at least having the spamdash to get you through it faster.
Anyways, there are no plans to patch Demo 1, but if you want to revert to the old spindash, you could always take the Lua/Abilities/spamdash.lua in the v1.2 pk3, and put it into the latest version.
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Nightmare Forces
The One and Only
- First of all, I'd like to say I love this mod, its pretty good and fun to play as well as try to 100% complete it, but since this is a demo, I'd like to give some suggestions for the full release. Please don't think I'm being rude or that I'm saying that the addon sucks or something like that because I'm not, just trying to give some advice and please forgive me if at any moment I sound rude.
In the first level, whenever you try to roll down a slope, it kills the momentum making you slow, this can be a problem for there a far to many slopes which makes rolling the only way to go down faster; I also suggest you fix the camera during the loop-de-loop animations, all you can see is the road and, while it's not a problem, it could be better; I'd also like to mention that Sonic doesn't move much when doing a mid-air boost and makes it barely noticeable; there is also a problem with the dash rings where they glitch out, putting the bottom part on top of the other, this could be troublesome, for you can barely notice the rings and might miss them by accident; another thing to take into account is the truck phase, it would be pretty cool if you could change the camera to face backwards while in this phase to get more of the SA2 experience; other than that, Sonic's level is pretty good. Now on to Tails, while it seems it was intended, removing Tails' fly with a glide seems awkward, for there are times when you have to shoot the Beetle's, lowering you speed and making you fail the glide, this can cause unnecessary deaths and potentially annoy players; another thing I noticed was that at the beginning, there's one more Beetle on top of the players in the back, literally no one would think to check that since the game is forward based, and there's no need for a platform since Tails can still defeat that Beetle by facing up or just jumping and shooting; now based on the platforms in the stage, they are barely noticeable and while you could get the idea of going to the top sections of the stage, there is no way of knowing where the platforms are because they blend in perfectly with the stage floor; but the level is good non the less. Next is Knuckles and there are many, but MANY things to fix here. First of all, not giving Knuckles a role but instead a sort of dig function seems both useless and confusing (no offense), the dig has short range and can't even be considered a dig if doesn't go underground; it would be very helpful to fix the time emblem for it is impossible to clear this stage in less than 1:30, the stage is humungous and the shard radar has such short range, it took me 5 minutes to find just one shard witch sucked imo; another thing to take into account, and don't mean to sound rude here, but the chao box locations are stupid and unreasonable, nobody is going to check the bottom part of the stage just to find a chao box, who would do that when the stage is huge???; while I like Pumpkin Hill Zone, there is a lot of room for improvement here, but the design is peak and makes me remember of SA2 in many aspects. Now Rouge, not many problems since it's basically the same as Pumpkin Hill but what's worse is that there are too sections, one above the water and another below the water, this makes you think there are two levels in one which is kind of confusing and all the more reason why the time emblem will be impossible in to complete in this zone as well; not something that's of high significance but Rouge's sprites are kind of old and could use some remodeling, if it's possible to make an addon specifically for this one that changes the old Rouge sprites with new ones. Now, Eggman, and oh boy are you gonna hear from me. To start things off, I'd like to mention that in the beginning of the stage, as well as the final parts of the stage, glitch out in the center view of the camera, making it barely possible to see what's ahead, you would need to look at another angle in order to identify the area ahead of you, this can a waste of time when doing the time emblem, and depending on the ring emblem, you won't be able to see some platforms as well as some Beetle's which could make the player wonder, "what hit me?"; also, like everyone knows, SRB2's platforming system has many steps to follow, and clearly, this addon doesn't follow them correctly. When ending the moving animation, platforms usually stop so that the player is able to react and board the platform without failing, this is not the case, for the platform doesn't stop when ending the moving animation, making it hardly possible to board, you would to build up a lot of speed and take off at the right time in order to successfully board it, the stage has many moving platforms which makes this all the more annoying to clear, not to mention that the final part of the stage has up to THREE MOVING PLATFORM LANES!?, this section is utterly disgusting and very hard to pass without dying (again, no offense); I'm pretty sure this stage is the least favorite for this addon by many players but that makes it all the more challenging and satisfying to clear, tho it could use some improvements. Now for the final level, Shadow, not the worst but not best by any means. Like City Escape, Radical Highway is way too long and the timer emblem doesn't disappoint, but there are also sections where it glitches out in the center view, making it hard to notice obstacles in the way, and while you can fix this by facing another angle, it's a waste of time when doing the timer emblem; I also get why you added a bounce to Shadow but it's not very helpful, OG Shadow already had a way to gain height but it would appear that you replaced the upward Chaos Control with the Bounce mechanic, while it's fun and a unique ability that hasn't been implemented to Shadow recently, I bet that most people didn't notice this because there is no reason to use spin in mid-air when this was never added to his addon, because if you know OG Shadow's moveset, you're able to notice that this isn't a necessary addition, plus, sacrificing one Chaos Control and the upward mechanic just doesn't feel right and makes you have to get used to this version of Shadow with a "not-so-reliable" kit; other than that, it's the same problem as the camera in the loop-de-loop's in City Escape and the momentum problem with slopes, but Shadow is fine; and also that at the end of the stage in the stage clear animation, the camera goes out-of-bounds, which isn't annoying but awkward. I'd also like to mention that the Chao boxes don't have any sort of special addition because there is not Chao Garden in Story Mode, it would be very cool if you could add that as well. This addon is great and I hope that when the full version releases these problems could get solved in order to make the SA2 experience in Robo Blast a whole lot better.
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rinkusbinkus
Member
i ain't reading allat
Nightmare Forces
The One and Only
Then don't, it's just my way of saying that this addon could use some improvements for the full release, I'm not forcing you to read it tho, just take into account that there are many problems with the addon.
- Yes, you're supposed to roll down the slope to gain momentum, instead of spamming the spindash button.
- You need to play with OpenGL to fix visual issues such as the loop camera, flickering/overlapping objects, or HOMs.
- If Tails had his normal fly, he could skip over the level, making the entire stage pointless.
- You don't lose speed when firing during a glide, you just need to make sure you keep holding jump.
- The beetle hidden in the back was in the original game. It's for exploration, but it's not like you need it to complete the level.
- The rising platforms have flashy yellow stripes around them, I don't know what you mean by them "blending in".
- Knuckles isn't supposed to have a dig: it's a punch, for defeating enemies.
- The time emblem is balanced: you just have to use the hint monitors, which point you to where the shards are.
- The Chao Box locations are the same as the original game. If one of the boxes is hard to find, it's not a big problem, it's not like you need to find all of them. You only need one key to access the garden. (Which will be available in future versions: but not with an actual Chao raising system, sorry. That would be way too much effort, and we don't have the resources.)
- Dry Lagoon being split in two is the same layout as the original game.
- SRB2's polyobject platforms don't have an option to stop/slow down before moving. That's just an engine limitation, sorry. Sand Ocean is easier when you try to make bigger jumps, instead of trying to hop on every little platform.
- The three lanes at the end are so you have more platforms to get across. Would you rather there only be one lane? Plus, you don't need to jump across the lanes. You can just stay still on one lane and wait for it to circle around to the exit.
- Shadow doesn't have the upward Chaos Snap because the SA2 level design wasn't built around him being able to get that much vertical height on a whim. He has the bounce instead, because it's not as broken, and to make him the same as Sonic.
Nightmare Forces
The One and Only
Well, I play without using the roll because it takes to long to turn, but regarding the visual issues, there's a reason I don't use OpenGL mode, and that's because for some reason the screen gets smaller and I have zero on how to fix that, that's why I've always played with software mode, I know, it's foolish; and I see your point, Tails being able to fly would make the whole stage both meaningless and boring as well as easy to clear (no offense) but I just noticed the Beetle behind me because I was interested in knowing what was in the back, but you can also reach the Beetle without platforms so that's something to take into account; but for the Knuckles level, but I had no idea that those monitors told you the location, I just destroyed every single one that I saw, and makes sense that his spin mechanic is a punch because Knuckles can't damage the enemies with his glide without getting hurt; I don't have any problem with the Chao but you could also try to fix the respawn of those boxes because they keep appearing even tho you have collected them previously; and while Dry Lagoon does resemble the original, it's honestly too much work to look for those shards in such a widespread map; Sand Ocean's design is basically a height based one because you placed really high platforms in order to counter this which I find very helpful, and while at first glace I thought I needed to get to the center of the three-laned platform part because of the visual issue, it wasn't so hard to find the pattern, I just found it very stressful having to deal with it; and I also see your point regarding Shadow, but sometimes old habits are hard to break you know, but his bounce is still fun to use non the less.
Please don't think I was being a critique, I could never be able to do this in years, so i find this addon very interesting, I just wanted to let you know some of the issues I encountered during my first playthrough, and sorry, but I don't really read the information's depicted on the addons, I just pick the ones that are cool looking and the most ratings, I have not played SRB2 in months due to some technical issues so that may be the reason why I didn't such obvious stuff (I know, it's stupid that I don't know this), but I don't want you to feel bad about some stuff, the mod is great and deserves to be recognized, but while some things may have room for improvement, I think you did a great job and honestly, the more challenging, the better, right!
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Nightmare Forces
The One and Only
Not really since I'm not much of the talkative kind of person, I try my best to figure things out on my own, but never really tried to ask for help tbh.