Sonic 2 and 3 are better than 1

Icarus

Phantasy Savior
... actually, not quite. Sonic 2 and 3 pull heavily from concepts made for Sonic 1 that didn't make it in.
For example, there were sketches of a mud gimmick for Green Hill Zone, potentially. They didn't put it in, but it's direct implementation is present in both Oil Ocean's oil and Marble Garden's mud.
599px-GD_Sonic1_GDC2018_Spinning.png
Another example, we've seen that they were outright using S2 concept art for S3. For example...
This is concept art for Aquatic Ruin.
Sonic2_ConceptArt_EmeraldIsle.png

Now... look at this piece of concept art we KNOW was in effect in S3.
Sonic3_ConceptArt_1.png
That's very interesting but I feel like Sega tried to make a game too big for a first entry into the series.

I'm pretty glad Sonic 2 and 3&K came to be as they were.
 

Dragonick

Member
What about Sonic CD? And Knuckles Chaotix?
I think Sonic CD is as good as if not better than Sonic 2, due to the interesting exploration and unique time travel mechanic. Sonic 2 had too many dick moves and strange choices, and was less visually interesting.
Knuckles' Chaotix, while not an especially good game, was an example of Sonic Team trying something new to see what works, even if it didn't work out great. It did mark the appearance of my favourite version of the Chaotix' design, though.
 

Icarus

Phantasy Savior
I think Sonic CD is as good as if not better than Sonic 2, due to the interesting exploration and unique time travel mechanic. Sonic 2 had too many dick moves and strange choices, and was less visually interesting.
Knuckles' Chaotix, while not an especially good game, was an example of Sonic Team trying something new to see what works, even if it didn't work out great. It did mark the appearance of my favourite version of the Chaotix' design, though.
I would say that Sonic 2's level design is somewhat more direct which is a matter of taste but I agree, the later half of the game is filled with so many stupid moments that punishes the player for no reasons.

As for Chaotix I'd love to see an actual revamp (like a remastered version of Sonic CD) with online multiplayer.
 

Dragonick

Member
I would say that Sonic 2's level design is somewhat more direct which is a matter of taste but I agree, the later half of the game is filled with so many stupid moments that punishes the player for no reasons.

As for Chaotix I'd love to see an actual revamp (like a remastered version of Sonic CD) with online multiplayer.
I don't think Chaotix would work as well with online multiplayer, because it would be harder to communicate with your partner, but there are probably ways to fix that.
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
I think Sonic CD is as good as if not better than Sonic 2, due to the interesting exploration and unique time travel mechanic. Sonic 2 had too many dick moves and strange choices, and was less visually interesting.
I do love CD, at least when I'm not bothering to go out of my way to get good futures, but the time travel mechanic in general is poorly designed in relation to the level design. You have to get going fast and then hold onto that speed, which is often nearly impossible without an enemy or other obstacle getting in your way. That's assuming you can even find a time travel sign that will bring you where you want to go to begin with. It's typical for most successful time travel attempts to be a result of stage design that forces Sonic into constant motion such as two springs pointed at each other.

What would have made more sense in my opinion is if there was only one type of time travel sign in each time period, and each one works just by touching it. It would generate a Sonic 2/3 style ring of particles like you'd use to get into a special stage or bonus minigame, and jumping into it sends you to the present from the past or future, or gives you the option to choose either from the present. This would make the time travel mechanic overall less inconvenient.
 

Dragonick

Member
I do love CD, at least when I'm not bothering to go out of my way to get good futures, but the time travel mechanic in general is poorly designed in relation to the level design. You have to get going fast and then hold onto that speed, which is often nearly impossible without an enemy or other obstacle getting in your way. That's assuming you can even find a time travel sign that will bring you where you want to go to begin with. It's typical for most successful time travel attempts to be a result of stage design that forces Sonic into constant motion such as two springs pointed at each other.

What would have made more sense in my opinion is if there was only one type of time travel sign in each time period, and each one works just by touching it. It would generate a Sonic 2/3 style ring of particles like you'd use to get into a special stage or bonus minigame, and jumping into it sends you to the present from the past or future, or gives you the option to choose either from the present. This would make the time travel mechanic overall less inconvenient.
If I'm reading it right, your suggestion would cause the mechanic to become trivial: time travel was (hopefully) meant to be challenging to set up and rewarding to succeed, but some zones like Metallic Madness can be really difficult to set up.
I'd suggest the zone layouts be tweaked to make warping a little easier and less frustrating, and for more Past signs to be added. Removing the time limit and giving the player an incentive to travel to the future might help too.
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
If I'm reading it right, your suggestion would cause the mechanic to become trivial: time travel was (hopefully) meant to be challenging to set up and rewarding to succeed, but some zones like Metallic Madness can be really difficult to set up.
I'd suggest the zone layouts be tweaked to make warping a little easier and less frustrating, and for more Past signs to be added. Removing the time limit and giving the player an incentive to travel to the future might help too.
The incentive already exists if you are able to pull off making a good future. Traveling into the good future allows you to avoid having to deal with enemy badniks, making levels easier to play through.

Honestly, I feel as though the time travel mechanic itself being a challenge to pull off is part of the problem with CD. Classic Sonic gameplay has a core focus on earning speed and then keeping it through the levels. While on paper this sounds like it would flow well with how CD time travel works, the levels are generally not designed around going fast at all. There's a lot of additional factors that serve to impede you as well, such as having to slow down and go out of your way to seek out a sign that will take you to your desired time period while in the present, and then being able to lose your chance.

Trivialized ability to travel between time periods at signposts isn't a perfect solution, it wouldn't fix the problem of needing to slow down to time travel, but it would at least make the process of creating a good future less of a burden. Time travel at the signs themselves would allow the player to time travel without losing track of where they are in the level, and ability to choose which time period to travel to from the present would eliminate the need to seek out specialized signs for it.
 

Dragonick

Member
The incentive already exists if you are able to pull off making a good future. Traveling into the good future allows you to avoid having to deal with enemy badniks, making levels easier to play through.

Honestly, I feel as though the time travel mechanic itself being a challenge to pull off is part of the problem with CD. Classic Sonic gameplay has a core focus on earning speed and then keeping it through the levels. While on paper this sounds like it would flow well with how CD time travel works, the levels are generally not designed around going fast at all. There's a lot of additional factors that serve to impede you as well, such as having to slow down and go out of your way to seek out a sign that will take you to your desired time period while in the present, and then being able to lose your chance.

Trivialized ability to travel between time periods at signposts isn't a perfect solution, it wouldn't fix the problem of needing to slow down to time travel, but it would at least make the process of creating a good future less of a burden. Time travel at the signs themselves would allow the player to time travel without losing track of where they are in the level, and ability to choose which time period to travel to from the present would eliminate the need to seek out specialized signs for it.
There's still not much incentive to travel twice to the Good Future from the Past if you can already easily complete the zone in the past. After destroying the Robot Transporter and Metal Sonic Hologram, there are no more enemies, making the zone much easier.

The level design isn't great for time travelling, but you could see this as part of the challenge. I do, and it's very rewarding when I manage to get to the past and find the Robot Transporter. It could be improved considerably, though; which keeps the idea of the game's original time travel mechanic as well as being an easier solution to implement.

To me, your suggestions sound like they're trying to maintain speed throughout zones. I like that idea, but I'm not sure making dual-purpose Time Signs would help. If the zones were better, then a skilled player could easily jump to a path with a sign on it and time travel without skipping a beat and save the planet and conquer time and all that.

I once heard from a video I watched that Sonic level design has two pillars: speed and exploration. Sonic 1 does an okay job at balancing them, Sonic 2 focuses on speed, Sonic CD goes for exploration, and Sonic 3 balances better than Sonic on a ledge. If Sonic CD were to take a leaf out of the book of the first game and the fourth game, then the time travel experience could be improved further.

Also, cool username.
 
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retroboi4

yes BTS aint real music so get rekt lol
well sonic 2 is a great game and also sonic 3 but i prefer sonic 3 & knuckles because the game is longer and has some great shields & knuckles
 

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