Possible Suspension of the OLDC

[Mystic]

I don't think I need to tell anyone this, but the OLDC has been really crappy for almost a year now. There are very few entries, which universally are untested garbage submitted by new members and untested rush jobs submitted by the old members. This has lead to the OLDC generally being completely awful, and with the March/April 2012 contest, it's clearly hit the breaking point.

Therefore, if the May/June 2012 contest does not have a significant improvement in the quality and quantity of the OLDC, the OLDC will be suspended until the release of 2.1. If you like the OLDC but haven't been entering recently, I highly encourage you to put together something for the OLDC, and please put forth some real actual effort. All a rush job proves is that you can put together a WAD in two hours, and at this point we all know that you can.

 

[Monster Iestyn]

Yeah, I've been getting tired of seeing rush jobs everywhere in the OLDCs lately, so seeing this topic here isn't much of a surprise.

As for this latest OLDC, most of the entries aren't actually rush jobs this time though, so to me it really looks more of a sign nobody is bothering to take part anymore period, let alone entering something with effort.

 

[Zap610]

Despite what I said in IRC I can understand this. Same thing happened with ST speedmapping.

 

[VelocitOni]

How much this matters is whether or not 2.1 is coming soon.

 

[CoatRack]

I am honestly puzzled how this will increase the amount of good levels we will receive for the OLDC, suspending it till after 2.1's release seem iffy to me. It could turn out like the first 2.0 OLDC, and we know how that turned out.

Also, I honestly enjoy making maps in 2 hours, mostly because I enjoy speed mapping. But I do agree that SOME of the rush job levels are horrible, but there are a few gems, like the old "FAIL" level form 1.09.4, or even, dare I say it "Ponies Suck Zone" (although I disagree with the name, it still played good.)

 

[Spazzo]

Inspiration begets motivation begets inspiration.

The reason the contest has failed is because all parties involved have stopped showing ANY interest in it, so why in the world would a newcomer want to be a part of it?

You want a better contest? Make people want to contribute. Vary the requirements. Add a theme. Make it more grandiose and elabourate, rather than routine and stale! Do something interesting with the reward, like give that person unique insight into development! These are all just ideas off the top of my head -- be creative, guys, come on! Make us really wish we were the best mapmaker here!

Better yet, encourage users to participate by participating yourselves -- instead of making maps specifically for 2.1 (because lord knows we'll never be playing them anyways), release those levels into the OLDC for public evaluation. Who gives a crap if Castle Eggman (gasp) is in the contest before 2.1's release? You'll get much-needed feedback on the map, and inspire your peers to come forth and be creative themselves! I won't even begin on how much attention you'll draw towards the contest by pouring anything you've made for 2.1 into it.

The contest has also sucked for years now because everyone here has refused to do anything but the routine, the ordinary, or what's expected (This actually goes for more than just the OLDC...). I shouldn't have to tell you guys that I go out of my way to break routine, be out-of-the-ordinary, and do the opposite of what others expect. It's earned me some charisma, respect, and well, controversy. One thing's certain, though -- you know who I am. You wouldn't know who Spazzo is if he played things by the book, would you?

Now go and take that mindset and apply it to this bi-monthly mapathon, and watch the talent pour in. It's no secret anymore that you guys look to the cream of the crop from the OLDC when looking for fresh developer meat, so why not broadcast that fact to give users something to aspire to? It's a very far-off goal, sure, but give 'em a little hope, and they'll shoot for the stars!


Funny how it's been well over a year since I left STJr., yet I'm still the guy holding up the pom-poms and doing cartwheels. Come on, guys! Show me you've still got some passion! I'm on your side here!

 

[D00D64]

The contest has also sucked for years now because everyone here has refused to do anything but the routine, the ordinary, or what's expected (This actually goes for more than just the OLDC...).

But what about me? :<

Though I can honestly say I agree with you. Nobody else ever tries anything different, and our best mappers lost interest. We can't wait for 2.1 to make that happen.

 

[Spazzo]

There are, of course, exceptions to the rule. However, that doesn't change the fact of the matter: The contest has been completely worn out. There is no novelty left. Try as you might, one person's effort cannot fix the entire contest, it has to be the collective work of many. You gotta have competition, right?

Good on you for trying something different, D00D64. While I personally find the map overly niche for me to personally enjoy, you still went against the grain and succeeded, so it's certainly earned you some respect in my eyes.

I've been trying to coerce people to mix up the contest for years now. Some of my suggestions even got in -- the contest winner title, for example, as one possible incentive to do well -- but it was more of a band-aid fix than anything. You guys want to make the contest radical again? Well, start making some radical changes.

D00D, don't wait until 2.1, trust me. Start now. 2.1 will suffer this same fate if you uphold that "I'll wait until the next version" mentality. If something is to be done, you guys can't put the responsibility on an equally-as-worn-out group of individuals to supply your own creativity.

 

[Ezer'Arch]

But what about me? :<

Meh... I gave you a high-score because you simply smashed the windows and let fresh-air get in, I did want you to win, hence the 10/10, just to make sure. I'm not meaning your map is bad; it does have merit to be the winner, I had lots of fun and it was a big surprise. I was kinda forced to reward you for the creativity that you pulled off (read "creativity" as courage to subvert the standards).

As for the OLDC being suspended (likely): I have mixed feelings about it, while I find it terribly sad, I feel I was fed up and expecting something of sort to happen, sooner or later, perhaps people get a clue and someone speaks up a "I told you"... But still, it's not the end of the world; I comprehend this is a measure the staff is taking to force people to make something decent or, if it still fails, kill it altogether.

 

[Spazzo]

The problem, Ezer, is that you can't "force" people to be creative. They need to be inspired. If what you say is correct, than it is doomed to fail.

 

[Zap610]

Giving a theme sounds like a great idea. It should at least be tried before it gets the ax...

 

[MellowJacket]

I think now is a good time to suggest a plan that has been rattling around in my head for a little while now to help inspire some extra creativity in this community.

It’s well established by this point that the lack of released and finished single player level packs for SBR2 has become a problem, with the only finished level pack for 2.0 being Tortured Planet. Would it be possible for us as a community to develop a single player level pack as a collaborated project?

There are a lot of details that need to be sorted out before such a project can begin though, such as how we decide what zone themes the levels will use, who will work in which level, what level of standard we will aim for, and a list that stretches on for far longer, this is an idea that would need further discussion in its own thread if an interest is gathered.

But what a project like this will achieve is that it will give mapmakers an opportunity to have their work released in a large coherent level pack without taking years to make any significant process (like Chaos Domain or Lost Worlds) and also give the community something to look forward to instead of just the OLDC.

Of course, there's no guarantee that this idea will end in a perject level pack if it ever starts. The standards can't be too high, or we will end with another SRB2&K and nothing will be finished. So take this idea with a pinch of salt, even if I think some interesting results could come from it.

 

[MascaraSnake]

the OLDC has been really crappy for almost a year now.

"Almost a year" is an exaggeration. July/August 2011 gave us one of the highest contest averages ever. September/October 2011 and January/February 2012 gave us several maps that scored above 8. Sure, all these contests had a lot of garbage, but that has always been the case. The problem isn't that the OLDC has been crappy, the problem is that its non-crappiness relies on a few very talented mappers. If they sit out (which happened this time), that's when the contest starts to become crappy.

How much this matters is whether or not 2.1 is coming soon.

Wouldn't it be hilarious if the OLDC were suspended after May/June and then 2.1 was released in August?

I am honestly puzzled how this will increase the amount of good levels we will receive for the OLDC, suspending it till after 2.1's release seem iffy to me. It could turn out like the first 2.0 OLDC, and we know how that turned out.

20 entries and an average very close to 5? Seems fine to me. The problem with that contest was that nobody knew yet how the multiplayer gametypes worked. We don't have that problem with 2.1. The closest thing would be lots of really crappy and buggy Lua scripts. And even if that happens, I think we would be able to tolerate one contest full of crappy test maps if it creates some momentum for future contests. After all, Nov/Dec '09 had 34 entries.

Also, I honestly enjoy making maps in 2 hours, mostly because I enjoy speed mapping.

You might enjoy making them, but we don't enjoy playing them. Past attempts have shown that seasoned mappers can make decent maps in two hours, but really good maps are more or less impossible. We don't need more decent but generic rush jobs from people who can do much better.

The reason the contest has failed is because all parties involved have stopped showing ANY interest in it, so why in the world would a newcomer want to be a part of it?

Because they want to make maps and the contest is a way of releasing those maps? The OLDC isn't designed as an incentive to make maps, it's an opportunity for those who are making maps anyway to get feedback on their work. Most newcomers try their hand at mapping at some point, but we rarely ever get to see any finished products, in the contest or otherwise. The problem isn't that people are ignoring the contest, the problem is that we have too few active mappers.

You want a better contest? Make people want to contribute. [...] Make us really wish we were the best mapmaker here!

That might encourage people to make maps for the sole purpose of entering the contest. Rarely do good things come from this. The incentive to make maps shouldn't be some external reward, it should come from the people themselves.

Do something interesting with the reward, like give that person unique insight into development!

I see two problems with this: The devs (people like Blade, KOTE and Spherallic) might stop entering the contest because they don't get any reward. Most of the best maps in the OLDC come from these people. Also, what happens when 2.1 is released and there's no insight to give anymore?

Better yet, encourage users to participate by participating yourselves -- instead of making maps specifically for 2.1 (because lord knows we'll never be playing them anyways), release those levels into the OLDC for public evaluation. Who gives a crap if Castle Eggman (gasp) is in the contest before 2.1's release? You'll get much-needed feedback on the map, and inspire your peers to come forth and be creative themselves! I won't even begin on how much attention you'll draw towards the contest by pouring anything you've made for 2.1 into it.

I fail to see the logic behind that. If Castle Eggman were released to the contest, how would that encourage users to submit maps themselves? If anything, it would discourage them because we all know that CEZ would get all the attention and the other entries would be comparatively ignored. It would also set a standard of quality that people will fear they can't live up to.

(because lord knows we'll never be playing them anyways)

Now that's just not true. I can only speak for myself, but I know that I played the official SP maps a lot more than any custom levels.

Who gives a crap if Castle Eggman (gasp) is in the contest before 2.1's release?

I do. I don't want to see the official maps in their unpolished state. I've seen a lot of people who aren't interested in 2.1 CEZ at all because they've seen 2.0 CEZ, which sucks. Seeing an in-progress version of a map ruins the anticipation you might have for the finished version.

The contest has also sucked for years now because everyone here has refused to do anything but the routine, the ordinary, or what's expected

I don't know what you except from the OLDC, but I'm happy if I get to play some good maps. I don't care if they're "routine" or "ordinary" or anything. If they're good, they're good. Dumbventure, for example, wasn't good because of any supposed "innovation", but because it had lots and lots of well-hidden secrets and a great custom boss. These are not new concepts.

Giving a theme sounds like a great idea. It should at least be tried before it gets the ax...

I think it's been tried before, albeit quite a few years ago. The results were disastrous. If you want to improve the quality and quantity, the last thing you should do is restrict what people can work with. Many people won't participate at all because they have no idea for the theme at hand and many of the less talented mappers will submit terrible maps because they focus so much on the theme that they forget to make the map enjoyable. Not that I have a problem with trying it out, but I honestly doubt that it would help.

Would it be possible for us as a community to develop a single player level pack as a collaborated project?

That's an intriguing idea. Even though projects like these are usually doomed to failure, it would nevertheless inspire some activity. Go make a thread and see what happens!

___________________________________________________________

Now here's what I propose to attempt and fix the contest: Make reviews mandatory. The OLDC is primarily a feedback mechanism that helps mappers improve, and I think at that it fails. The mappers who have been recently contributing to the OLDC aren't really getting any better, they're stagnating at the same level. Why is that? Maybe they're not reading the reviews or maybe the reviews aren't helpful. Probably both. So maybe it would help if we force the users to give reasons for their scores and at least make an honest attempt to be helpful. Of course, I'm not expecting huge multi-paragraph reviews and high-quality insights from everybody. That would be foolish. But a bit more than a score and five words would be nice.

 

[Spazzo]

The post below mine is awesome

You know, SpiritCrusher, as much as I respect you, I couldn't disagree more. Force reviews? I said this once already -- you can't FORCE people to do anything. That will stifle them even more.

Stagnation is not a result of not reading the reviews, or the reviews themselves being unhelpful. I wouldn't make a map to get the reviews. I would make a map because I want to compete in a competition with my peers. That alone is worth the effort for me.

Forcing users to give justifications for their scores and "make an honest attempt to be helpful" will result in subjectivity being graded moreso than the maps themselves. You guys already have enough control over how things run here, don't go and force us to vote in something nobody is passionate about. You will lose support.

(Nevermind make yourselves look a lot worse if you use words like FORCE, MUST, and OBLIGATED for something that's supposed to be FUN, ENGAGING, and OPTIONAL like the contest. Jeez.)

Oh, and for what it's worth, stop anticipating 2.1 (and all of its content) like it's the second coming of Christ. This isn't my commentary on its quality, either, this is a statement for your own benefit. The sooner you guys realize that the developers are just like you guys and are making maps no differently than you are, the sooner you'll realize that the amount of hype put around their work is completely unnecessary and counter-productive. The only difference between them and the general userbase is perception. There's nothing saying that what levels they make are inherently superior or inferior.

Less aristocracy, more democracy.

 

[Nev3r]

expecting a ban

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but that is not how this place is intended to work like.

We're all here to obligate the current mappers to PRODUCE mediocre content. All we want is to make the official level rotation SUPERIOR to everything else, and that is our VERY DAILY duty.

The whole contest project is nothing but something to ENTERTAIN. We take new slaves everyday to create funny projects, while we set a low standard, so we can MOCK at them later, while we post offensive comments nobody else but US can read them. If you really thought it was a way to receive feedback, you're WRONG, as we censor most of it.

We all know we're pretty -stale- when it comes to ideas. However, we will NEVER accept feedback to improve the game. The very moment we see a passionate, outstanding piece of work, we'll make sure we either STEAL it, or make it disappear, as that would put our precious amount of WORK that we've been keeping for YEARS in risk. And while we like to see INTERESTING content, we prefer to hide it so our level rotation is EVEN MORE INTERESTING.

Less retardocracy, more nazism

 

[Zap610]

I think it's been tried before, albeit quite a few years ago. The results were disastrous. If you want to improve the quality and quantity, the last thing you should do is restrict what people can work with. Many people won't participate at all because they have no idea for the theme at hand and many of the less talented mappers will submit terrible maps because they focus so much on the theme that they forget to make the map enjoyable. Not that I have a problem with trying it out, but I honestly doubt that it would help.

Uh, I just think it'd be fun. Not to mention restriction breeds creativity; just compare Vanilla Doom maps to ST maps. If they forget to make the maps enjoyable by focusing on the theme then that's on them. The staff shouldn't have to coddle their users and pass up a fun idea.

 

[MascaraSnake]

I was originally going to reply to Spazzo's post, but after having a conversation with him, it turned out that the whole argument was based on a misunderstanding. What I suggest is the following: Votes should only count if an explanation is attached. I'm not suggesting that the explanation needs to have a specific length or needs to be good. The explanations aren't reviewed by anybody. They should just be there. I suggested this because I feel that the feedback aspect of the OLDC is being neglected. It doesn't fix the underlying problem that the OLDC doesn't have enough activity.

Uh, I just think it'd be fun. Not to mention restriction breeds creativity; just compare Vanilla Doom maps to ST maps. If they forget to make the maps enjoyable by focusing on the theme then that's on them. The staff shouldn't have to coddle their users and pass up a fun idea.

I have no problem with trying it out, I'm just mentioning that it's been tried before and didn't work out.

 

[Shadow Hog]

Yeah, sorry, I actually had a SP map in the works, but I decided to go back to a vanilla Doom 2 map I was working on, tighten it up a bit, make one mandatory puzzle slightly less obtuse, texture alignment, general prettifying, that sort of thing. Still concerned I'll hit visplane overflows in a few areas; I'll have to move from PrBoom+ to Chocolate Doom at some point and see (after moving from GZDoom to PrBoom+ in Doom 2 1.9 compatibility mode). At least lowering the wall for this one secret no longer lowers the floor for ALL sectors, though...

Anyway, the base is there, but I sort of ran out of ideas, which I frequently find myself doing these days. Doesn't mean I can't tidy it up for the next contest. Funny, though, if I had entered it, I'd have won the SP division by default (not that entering an unfinished map and winning is any particular accomplishment...)

 

[pastel]

Funny, though, if I had entered it, I'd have won the SP division by default

Actually, I had an SP entry but I didn't submit it because there weren't any other entries. Since there's a history of very little reviews in divisions with only one map I figured there was no point to entering it to this contest.

You would have probably still won anyway.

 

[Shadow Hog]

You would have probably still won anyway.

Considering the map in question involves a gimmick that could potentially be mildly confusing, don't be so sure.

Clearly, we both need to finish up said maps and enter them into the contest to find out for certain...