No Snow Zones
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Wasn't that in the Xmas special?
No. It was going to be Red Volcano 2, but they decided that was stupid and are going with a normal lava theme for the second act.
EDIT: ninja'd
As to why there is no snow themed zone in the game, it's because they didn't plan one in The Ultimate Design Document.
EDIT: ninja'd
As to why there is no snow themed zone in the game, it's because they didn't plan one in The Ultimate Design Document.
Lliteqiel ꙮ
Oh, What a Flopnik!
I do think we cover a lot of the themes listed here, so I would surmise there isn't anything in the SP campaign that's absolutely required.
Blue Mountain Zone Act 2 was in 2.0 as something only accessible via DEVMODE and MAP MAP17, in a very unfinished state, as a sort of snowy outdoors version of Red Volcano Zone Act 1. No kidding that it got scrapped afterwards.
Blue Mountain Zone Act 2 was in 2.0 as something only accessible via DEVMODE and MAP MAP17, in a very unfinished state, as a sort of snowy outdoors version of Red Volcano Zone Act 1. No kidding that it got scrapped afterwards.
Arcade Gamer
Acts like a mature adult
Snow Themed level got scrapped along with the mountain themed level (Rocky Mountain), Underground Themed Level (Mine Maze).
No. Rocky Mountain and Mine Maze were merged into Arid Canyon before anyone even thought of Blue Mountain Zone.
I personally don't know why everyone points at the lack of the ice theme as such a relevant omission when classic Sonic only had Ice Cap in all of the Genesis games. Hell, there was only one ice stage in the 8-bit games too if you want to use them. Ice and snow is not a commonly used theme in classic Sonic. If you want to point at a theme we're actually missing, we don't have a carnival/casino stage. Obviously, this is because we don't have pinball physics, but if you're going to point at a classic Sonic motif we're actively missing, that's the one, not ice.
I think the absence of ice mostly stands out because SRB2 isn't very selective with its tropes. There's greenery/water, greenery/technology, water/ruin, greenery/castle, rocky/desert, rocky/lava, and rocky/technology (along with planned city/??? and technology/???). It's pretty comprehensive, disregarding the obvious casino omission, which is generally excusable as beyond the (immediately obvious) capabilities of the game. Snow is generally seen as the priority missing theme by members of the community because many mods have made stabs at ice levels using resources from srb2.srb, including your personal pack. Even the game itself was dedicated to snow levels exclusively for what is basically the first entire year of its life (excluding the initial Halloween release).
While I recognise and understand that ice maps aren't your- or any dev's- priority, and don't think their absence is a *huge* issue, I personally think that a strictly "not in the classics" line of reasoning against their relevance to the community is faulty.
While I recognise and understand that ice maps aren't your- or any dev's- priority, and don't think their absence is a *huge* issue, I personally think that a strictly "not in the classics" line of reasoning against their relevance to the community is faulty.
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Frisktaker
Member
I think anyone who wants a snow level in srb2 should just play Mystic Realm. Or Tortured Planet, etc. Or make their own and submit it to the OLDC. What I like about srb2's levels is that they are pretty unique. I mean, There aren't many castle levels in Sonic, let alone in classic Sonic. The goo in Techno hill is pretty unique. I guess I'm just not sure why people are asking for ice and snow, when the levels we've got are not exactly the norm.
I think "not in the classics" isn't actually my argument as much as noting that not every game individually hits every trope. The classics hit a huge amount of level tropes over the entire series, but each individual game is missing a lot of fairly standard concepts. For instance, Sonic CD doesn't have a lava stage, which is about as standard as concepts get.
Our ice stage textures were rather notorious, especially back in the days when those early Xmas demos were actually current, because they simply aren't that great. There was a lot of demand for us to get away from the ice theme early on in the game's development because of these issues, so the TUDD only contains a single act secret zone for the theme. Also, remember that our original stage lineup was designed by a 13 year old, so it's honestly kinda a miracle how much variety we've ended up with overall =P
Our ice stage textures were rather notorious, especially back in the days when those early Xmas demos were actually current, because they simply aren't that great. There was a lot of demand for us to get away from the ice theme early on in the game's development because of these issues, so the TUDD only contains a single act secret zone for the theme. Also, remember that our original stage lineup was designed by a 13 year old, so it's honestly kinda a miracle how much variety we've ended up with overall =P
Everyone tends to forget that it HAS been reconsidered. Remember that the original stage plans called for the following:
Greenflower, Techno Hill, Deep Sea, Mine Maze, Rocky Mountain, Red Volcano, Dark City, Doomship, Eggrock
The entire game was "completed" around 2000 with these level concepts, but as said before, the scope of the game expanded significantly and those old, crappy designs were scrapped around the creation of Demo 1 in favor of far more involved, interesting levels. While they're considered dated nowadays, GFZ2 and THZ1 are the first stages that were completed in this new model. Remember that this was the old THZ1, which was essentially GFZ4. As time went on we created the "demo-exclusive" Castle Eggman, which was actually always intended to be a throwaway concept invented to provide a reward for collecting all the emeralds in Demo 4, believe it or not.
When THZ2/3 were created and CEZ was put into the normal level order for Final Demo, the plan was still to use the original level concepts above. During Final Demo's eternal refinement cycle, this is where the lack of ideas for Mine Maze and Rocky Mountain and the rethinking occurred. Mine Maze and Rocky Mountain's concepts were merged into a new stage called Arid Canyon, unifying the concept through adding a desert concept. Castle Eggman's theme then ceased to be demo-exclusive and took the extra zone slot. Doomship was renamed as well to avoid the DSZ abbreviation being used twice. Hence, now the plan is:
Greenflower, Techno Hill, Deep Sea, Castle Eggman, Arid Canyon, Red Volcano, Dark City, Grand Eggship, Eggrock
Obviously, we have a bunch of secret stage plans that include a bunch of other themes, but because of the overactive mind of a 13 year old making way too many to be remotely practical, all the excess terrible ideas have been dropped and only the neat ideas have been kept along with a few new ideas. An ice stage has been here the entire time, along with a bunch of others like Azure Temple.
I guess what I'm trying to say in too many words is that the TUDD is a guideline, not a hard rule, and we can and do change it when necessary. Because of all the changes to the game over the years, the TUDD would be completely useless and 15 years out of date if we didn't do so.
Greenflower, Techno Hill, Deep Sea, Mine Maze, Rocky Mountain, Red Volcano, Dark City, Doomship, Eggrock
The entire game was "completed" around 2000 with these level concepts, but as said before, the scope of the game expanded significantly and those old, crappy designs were scrapped around the creation of Demo 1 in favor of far more involved, interesting levels. While they're considered dated nowadays, GFZ2 and THZ1 are the first stages that were completed in this new model. Remember that this was the old THZ1, which was essentially GFZ4. As time went on we created the "demo-exclusive" Castle Eggman, which was actually always intended to be a throwaway concept invented to provide a reward for collecting all the emeralds in Demo 4, believe it or not.
When THZ2/3 were created and CEZ was put into the normal level order for Final Demo, the plan was still to use the original level concepts above. During Final Demo's eternal refinement cycle, this is where the lack of ideas for Mine Maze and Rocky Mountain and the rethinking occurred. Mine Maze and Rocky Mountain's concepts were merged into a new stage called Arid Canyon, unifying the concept through adding a desert concept. Castle Eggman's theme then ceased to be demo-exclusive and took the extra zone slot. Doomship was renamed as well to avoid the DSZ abbreviation being used twice. Hence, now the plan is:
Greenflower, Techno Hill, Deep Sea, Castle Eggman, Arid Canyon, Red Volcano, Dark City, Grand Eggship, Eggrock
Obviously, we have a bunch of secret stage plans that include a bunch of other themes, but because of the overactive mind of a 13 year old making way too many to be remotely practical, all the excess terrible ideas have been dropped and only the neat ideas have been kept along with a few new ideas. An ice stage has been here the entire time, along with a bunch of others like Azure Temple.
I guess what I'm trying to say in too many words is that the TUDD is a guideline, not a hard rule, and we can and do change it when necessary. Because of all the changes to the game over the years, the TUDD would be completely useless and 15 years out of date if we didn't do so.
Actually I never DID knew that you guys considered (or reconsidered for that matter) an ice-themed zone. Also, as your last post Mystic, that was a cool brief history of the zone concepts. I vividly remember that old zone layout when I was 6/7 (I was born in 1996) on your old website. Now is that why "Dark City" was scrapped as well? If that's the case, that doesn't make sense to apply that rule to that zone since that was unique (I think I remembered playing it; wasn't it that zone where you had the the yellow moon in the BG and bricked building?).
You (probably) didn't. Dark City has never been released (EDIT: until a couple years ago, and that's one of the old versions Mystic was talking about and the link was slightly obscure)
EDIT: Okay, just clarifying this post by changing/removing some incorrect information; by "Dark City never being released or worked on", I meant a version that was made after the redesigning and "feature-creeping" of the game. Boinciel's post below explains more about what the game, and DCZ was like back then.
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Arcade Gamer
Acts like a mature adult
Dark City and Grand Eggship will be started on after Arid Canyon and Red Volcano are completed.
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Like Mystic said, it was "completed". The problem is that the level files haven't been touched in 16 years (last modified date of 1999!). I doubt that this is the one you remember, seeing as the level only really works in Demo 1; you probably remember Starlit Warehouse from the Final Demo series, the match level which used Dark City textures.
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Lliteqiel ꙮ
Oh, What a Flopnik!
eggman rides on an acme crayon, daring to color the place in colors other than orange
But y'know, Arcade Gamer, that's assuming we have enough sufficient gimmicks to fulfill two acts and boss for each, if we are willing to do that in the first place; although, I'd recommend having GEZ as just one act.
For DCZ, I'd suggest a switch from a downtown dystopia of the first act towards an absurdly spacious sewer for the second; not sure on what we'd do for GEZ, though. Perhaps that could be a single-act zone that is more of a challenge than Eggman, who you are trying to avoid for the entirety of the stage, and both of you finish in an Eggman-autopiloted escape pod that docks in towards ERZ.
TelosTurntable
How the turns have tel- tab-
I say GEZ be like wing fortress zone...
The one everyone hates? Yeah, that one.
The one everyone hates? Yeah, that one.
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