Moderators in the Post-Mystic realm

[Moose the Fat Cat]

Who are all of the Moderators?

At the bottom of the screen, the Mod users are in green. That's helpful to see which Mods have been online recently, although I'm not sure if there's a list of all the Mods and their join dates. I couldn't find one.

Who decides who is a Moderator and how is it decided?

How is this decided? Both SSNTails and Sonikku (the original game creators) have long ago left the community and officially dissolved their responsibility. That's fair and fine. And then the keys were given mostly to Mystic who built the community in his image.

So, who decides? How is it decided?

How long is a Moderator expected to serve the community?

It seems like most of the Mods have been so for, like, a decade or more. Is the expectation that this is a lifetime appointment?

What do Moderators do exactly?

I think we can see some of their actions— Mods appear to facilitate communication from the Developers to the community. They also lock threads. Alright, cool.

How do Moderators moderate each other? Do they review each others' activity? Do they receive performance reviews? Have Moderators ever been banned besides Mystic/Rob?

There seems like a lot of failure by the Mods to recognize the Mystic/Rob toxic behaviors earlier before they spiraled out of control.

In fact, I'm still unclear as to which Mods specifically whistle-blew finally, which Mods agreed that something needed to be done, and which Mods resisted this action.

Moose, what is your angle here? You want to be a mod or something?

Not exactly. I'm saying that being a Moderator should be like Jury service. It should be something you do to serve your community. It's a little extra work, I see that clearly; it also comes with some benefits. If there weren't any perks with the little power (but still power nonetheless) that comes with being a Message Board Moderator on a Sonic The Hedgehog Robo Blast 2 Fan Game Community, then probably nobody would willingly be a moderator for a decade or more. They might say "okay we need to identify who is going to be the next group of mods, because I can't do this forever."

Edit -- In fact, to make it clear that I'm not doing this for my own personal benefit, I'm recusing myself from becoming a moderator so long as I'm the one driving the reform. I'm not trying to crown myself. That's the opposite of my intention.

Alright smart guy, so what's the answer?

I'n not saying I have the answer. But elections seem logical.

Wouldn't it just be a popularity contest?

Yeah, that's an election.

Wouldn't it just be the same people?

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. What's the harm in trying? We seem capable of voting based on other threads. You have a nomination thread. Nominees with enough support head to a poll election.

You can have it be on a rolling basis, so that you're not overturning ALL OF THE moderators at once, but that you are REGULARLY updating and refreshing the roster.

I don't know. I'm not an expert. There's a few Mods who seem "suspicious" to me based just on their posts and some behavior I've witnessed in the Discord. There's also plenty of Non-Mods who seem like extraordinarily valuable members of the community who are devoted to seeing its betterment who I would feel comfortable voting for to be in a position of power guiding the community.

So this is, what, some kinda witch hunt?

Witches aren't real. "Witches" were just women who had the audacity to be different in an oppressive, violently ignorant culture. Am I being oppressive and violently ignorant? Or just the audacity to be different? Neither, I think, I'm just asking basic ass questions on a MB.

Are you insane?

I'm just Socratic methoding myself and anticipating a similar response as I've seen before, to hopefully avoid a pointlessly spiteful circular discussion.

Okay so... what's your point?

I'm just saying ... it shouldn't take the amount of abuse generated by Mystic, over a period of years, to finally reach a point of action. Even small, stupid, message board power is power. And, as we know:

Power corrupts.

---------- Post added at 10:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:50 AM ----------

Hey what about answering questions that aren't so rude? Expand on the voting nomination process idea, I was kinda into that.

Thanks for the encouragement. Okay here's a system for you, since you asked nicely.

There's a total of 4 threads that you need, over a period of 2 months.

Month 1 Threads.

• Nomination Thread for New Moderator
• Nomination Thread for Expiring Moderator

Both threads are open to everyone for a period of 1 month. The moderators and community both identify whose term(s) should be ending. Moderators can volunteer. Moderators/community can suggest other mods who should take a break.

Moderators who react in violent opposition - "how dare you suggest I step down" - this would be a red flag of the type of person who should probably be removed.

At the end of 1 month, the thread closes. The arguments have been made.


Month 2 Threads.

• Voting Thread for New Moderator
• Voting Thread for Expiring Moderator

Simple, right? The names that have come up most, or have received the most support in general, go into the Poll and then the votes determine the course of action.

Those who came close -- as in, a Mod who was ALMOST voted out, or someone who was ALMOST voted in -- these give you some good FEEDBACK FROM THE COMMUNITY on how you are coming across to others.

Right or wrong, agree or disagree, those are the empirical feedback in black and white data.

That kinda seems like a game show?

It's just an election process. Oddly it's true though, game shows like The Circle or Survivor or whatever that have to do elimination processes based on voting have had to do more reform on democratic voting processes than our governments in the US/UK/West which are basically democratic only in name.

Anyway. Think about it.

Edit -- In fact, to make it clear that I'm not doing this for my own personal benefit, I'm recusing myself from becoming a moderator so long as I'm the one driving the reform. I'm not trying to crown myself. That's the opposite of my intention.

 

[Steelie]

Oh boy.

Well firstly, the list of the MB staff is readily available on the wiki.

Next, the short answer to how mods and devs are picked: they decide. If they see a member actively engage with the community in a mature and positive manner, they're a likely candidate to be picked as a mod (or a dev if they worked on something pretty). That's not to say it happens every other week, it's a very selective process. Although there's been a time when they asked the rest of community who'd be an ideal mod (when the official Discord came to being and they needed more people to moderate that next to the MB is what comes to mind first), it tends to happen behind closed doors.

The most I'm aware of how mods are then picked is they just get a DM from a different mod or admin basically asking "hey wanna be a mod?" As for the rest of the questions, mods moderate (duh) the community sites like the MB, wiki and Discord, making sure people aren't misbehaving. They also obviously moderate each other, considering the whole Mystic and Rob debacle.

The performance rating and election questions really do give me a chuckle, though. Being a mod here is voluntary activity those people do in their free time. This is a community for a fan game, not a political entity (can't believe I'm actually writing this). Elections are not necessary, and frankly we don't need "Make SRB2 great again" banners on the forums. And considering all that has happened thus far, I'm sure current administration will make sure to police the kind of toxicity Mystic and co. have spawned, as a lot of them have learned from their mistakes over the years.

In short, this thread is rather irrational, in my opinion.

 

[Moose the Fat Cat]

Thanks for the wiki share, I didn't know that. Also wasn't aware of the first April Fools prank being to rename this Sonic fan game as a Nazi fan game, apparently in response to criticism of the moderation.

ho ho! what a jolly good joke! let me guess whose idea...

And how many current mods signed off on that joke, incidentally? Which users jokingly changed their avatars to Nazi symbols are still around? Just wondering if they've spoken about it since? It's listed as one of the Staff's first achievements moderating this board. Like it's the first thing below the list of names in that link.

April Fools' Day
The SRB2 Message Board briefly risks out-of-the-ordinary changes to celebrate April Fools' Day. During this event, the message board sometimes features a different background and logo along with modified user titles to fit a certain theme.

Nazi Allied Blitzkrieg 2
The first April Fools' Day theme took place in 2007 in which the message board appeared with a red skin, and was renamed "Nazi Allied Blitzkrieg 2," which is a reference to calling admins "Nazis" because of harsh rules, or extreme measures taken to maintain such rules. They also created new rules, which were simply not to "piss [the admins] off," and that breaking one rule would lead to a permanent ban. Many users changed their avatars in the spirit of the holiday, but some viewed the nature of the joke as tasteless and offensive.

---------- Post added at 11:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:55 AM ----------

it tends to happen behind closed doors.

a lot of them have learned from their mistakes over the years.

In short, this thread is rather irrational, in my opinion.

To these points:

1) Is that good?
2) How do you know?
3) Why?

 

[Steelie]

1) No one asks to be a mod. That's a rule of thumb, asking for power already makes a person untrustworthy. Not to mention public 'elections' would only bring out more toxicity among the community vying to be approved.

2) If you were around these people as long as I have (although as a lurker), you'd know they absolutely despised the previous moderation, and have a sole goal of simply doing better. There's a reason I've become much more active over the past few weeks; I trust the current moderation more.

3) Because I don't understand the idea or message behind this thread. You start out by asking reasonable questions, and then divert it into pointless rhetorical queries ("So what's your point?") that don't give much space for relevant discussion. Not to mention the election system you propose being unnecessary and unfitting for a fangame community. I just don't see any legs for this thread to stand on.

 

[Zipper]

I was going to write a long post answering each of the questions in the OP, but given how passive-aggressively worded and strawmanned they are, I'm sure you'll find a way to cherry pick my answers and shove a "But what if...." in there.

To these points:


3) Why?

This is a fangame community, not a democracy. Moderators lock threads and infract people who say offensive things. That's it. Take a break from your web surfing and think about the asinine ideas you're presenting towards a community full of children.

 

[Moose the Fat Cat]

I was going to write a long post answering each of the questions in the OP, but given how passive-aggressively worded and strawmanned they are, I'm sure you'll find a way to cherry pick my answers and shove a "But what if...." in there.

This is a fangame community, not a democracy. Moderators lock threads and infract people who say offensive things. That's it. Take a break from your web surfing and think about the asinine ideas you're presenting towards a community full of children.

I'm saying this community full of children has not been served well by the moderators, heroic as they are to serve us with their unpaid time. As far as I'm aware, we are all unpaid and volunteering our time here.

I'm not trying to be passive aggressive, just straight forward. I'm sometimes speaking in a joking tone, but my energy is even-tempered. I'm not mad or whatever. I'm just trying to get the point across through the noise.

From Mystic's secret porn forum, to the hilarious joke of renaming the message board in honor of Nazis in 2007... it took until 2020 and much more abuse from Mystic and Rob to this community of children before any action was allowed to take place.

Why is it so offensive to suggest that this community, which includes children and adults, should be able to moderate itself? Including the power to participate in selecting them?

Do all of the moderators want to be mods? If they don't, why do they have to? There are a lot of posters here and a lot of them who have been here for a long time and proven themselves to be reasonable arbitrators with decent judgment.

So why can't the burden of Moderation be passed around?

This is a fangame community, not a democracy.

Why shouldn't a fangame community be democratic? Mystic wanted it to be authoritarian and that served whose benefit? None of us own Sonic, or the game. So why shouldn't it be democratic?

---------- Post added at 11:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 AM ----------

1) No one asks to be a mod. That's a rule of thumb, asking for power already makes a person untrustworthy. Not to mention public 'elections' would only bring out more toxicity among the community vying to be approved.

Hence the suggestion of a nomination thread. If enough people nominated you, you can choose to accept or decline the nomination. Maybe a lot of people like you, but you don't have the time or interest. That's fine too. You can say no, and you're free to not participate at all.

Edit -- In fact, to make it clear that I'm not doing this for my own personal benefit, I'm recusing myself from becoming a moderator so long as I'm the one driving the reform. I'm not trying to crown myself. That's the opposite of my intention.

2) If you were around these people as long as I have (although as a lurker), you'd know they absolutely despised the previous moderation, and have a sole goal of simply doing better. There's a reason I've become much more active over the past few weeks; I trust the current moderation more.

The fact that you felt unsafe to post because of the Mystic gang is proof for why this is a reasonable suggestion moving forward.

3) Because I don't understand the idea or message behind this thread. You start out by asking reasonable questions, and then divert it into pointless rhetorical queries ("So what's your point?") that don't give much space for relevant discussion. Not to mention the election system you propose being unnecessary and unfitting for a fangame community. I just don't see any legs for this thread to stand on.

I think you should read through the OP a bit slower and without mentally crossing your arms, to not read it with a defensive lens, and just consider it a bit more.

---------- Post added at 11:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 AM ----------

OK I just edited this in but I think it maybe is helpful/clarifying enough to state it in a new post.

Since I'm the one bringing this Mod reform issue up, it only makes sense for me to also recuse myself from any potential nomination/addition to the Mod staff. (Not saying anyone would nominate me, or that I would do it if offered. I'm just saying that I'm not trying to crown myself, or add myself to a position of power. That's the opposite of the intent.)

So, in the event of agreement with the idea of Nomination / Voting processes, which would need to be threads created by Mod Staff anyway, I'm hereby recusing myself -- not from voting, but from any possible nomination.

tl;dr -- This isn't about me, or you, or really any one individual. It's a culture change that is needed.

 

[~Confusion~]

From a superficial glance, this idea looks nice, but from a second thought, it seems to have a crucial flaw.

Consider an election process in practically any country: To vote, people need to present a passport or another means of identification. How is that even possible on the Internet?

I'm not even saying about the fact that in countries, citizens are allowed to vote only starting from a certain age.

From my view, without some kind of support from instances who can provide identification of people in this community (and this is something many of us probably wouldn't want) this seems pretty much unfeasible.

 

[Chrispy]

There isn't exactly a scramble of people trying to fight for the "power" of moderating a fangame community. Most of our moderators right now are developers as well. "Elections" simply aren't going to go anywhere and are also not an ideal way to decide who can be trusted to moderate here. When we see someone who shows they have a level head and seems fit for moderation, the moderation team will discuss with each other whether we reach out to them to see if they want on the team. You seem to assume we need a leader or something to function and now that Mystic is gone we our moderation team must be in a scramble to figure things out but this is simply not the case.

In fact, to make it clear that I'm not doing this for my own personal benefit, I'm recusing myself from becoming a moderator so long as I'm the one driving the reform.

You're not driving anything. Who do you think you are? Why should we listen to you? do you have any experience with community management?

There's a few Mods who seem "suspicious" to me based just on their posts and some behavior I've witnessed in the Discord.

I'm interested in hearing more about who you find "suspicious"

 

[D00D64]

This is a management system, not something political. We dont need a rotating staff set, we dont need rulings to decide who is staff or not. If the current staff feels the need to change, then they'll do it. It's no more complicated than that, and shouldn't have to be.

As for why it took so long to knock down Mystic and others down a peg, its because they were at the top, and most of us were dealing with these fools for a long time. The main reason things turned around was because Mystic and the others made such egregious statements that even the upper staff had to change; Mystic got fed up with the community he hated so much, Rob felt the need to "temporarily" step down, and the other moderators finally had the means to tip it in the rest of the staff's favor, and show all the bullshit they had to put up with for years.

this wasn't even just a problem with moderation staff, this was a problem with STjr itself! You know why Knuckles' swimming frames and Super Knuckles (with a unique additional ability too) were added to a patch so soon after Mystic and the others leaving? Because they, for completely asinine and nonsensical reasons, denied both, even when the swimming frames were finished and functional! When someone at the head of development is so adamant about what they feel is "right" for the game or the community, it is difficult to speak up. All of this only hapened because the rest of the staff had a chance to do something about it, then they took it and ran to the endzone with it.

For someone who doesn't want to be on moderation staff, you sure got opinions on how we think we should run things. Don't go thinking that Mystic's departure shows we're some disorganized mess. On the contrary, we at moderation have been able to make changes that have been a long time coming, similarly to the dev team. We're in much better shape than we ever were, so don't you worry about that.

 

[Moose the Fat Cat]

There isn't exactly a scramble of people trying to fight for the "power" of moderating a fangame community. Most of our moderators right now are developers as well. "Elections" simply aren't going to go anywhere and are also not an ideal way to decide who can be trusted to moderate here. When we see someone who shows they have a level head and seems fit for moderation, the moderation team will discuss with each other whether we reach out to them to see if they want on the team. You seem to assume we need a leader or something to function and now that Mystic is gone we our moderation team must be in a scramble to figure things out but this is simply not the case.

Your assumption about my assumption is incorrect. I don't think you need a leader. I think it's the opposite; the top-down structure has shown enough flaws to be reformed. I don't see why moderator has to be a lifetime appointment, whether you're a developer or not seems beside the point to me, since managing the forum is different from programming a game.

You're not driving anything. Who do you think you are? Why should we listen to you? do you have any experience with community management?

1) As the OP/thread starter, I'm driving the discussion.
2) I don't think I'm anyone other than a poster here.
3) I think the idea is good.
4) Yes.

I'm interested in hearing more about who you find "suspicious"

I'd rather not. But okay, I indicated what one obvious red flag would be, then D00D64 gave me an infraction for making a post that was something the mods and staff had already "decided" and didn't merit further discussion. He then made it personally insulting by saying it should be something I should easily be able to make myself. So both elitist and ableist.

So that would be an example of suspicious decision making, in my humble opinion.

---------- Post added at 02:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 PM ----------

From a superficial glance, this idea looks nice, but from a second thought, it seems to have a crucial flaw.

Consider an election process in practically any country: To vote, people need to present a passport or another means of identification. How is that even possible on the Internet?

I'm not even saying about the fact that in countries, citizens are allowed to vote only starting from a certain age.

From my view, without some kind of support from instances who can provide identification of people in this community (and this is something many of us probably wouldn't want) this seems pretty much unfeasible.

I think you can limit the voting to people who have been members for X amount of time, or have X amount of posts. You can say that Developers or previous Mods or Longtime Valuable Members get +1 on their vote or something as well if we can't agree to make it straight 1:1 democratic.

It also would be easier if the forum had a Like / Reaction system (not as much as Discord but just basic reactions) to accumulate points over time, which would be at least an indicator of community engagement if nothing else.

---------- Post added at 02:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:16 PM ----------

For someone who doesn't want to be on moderation staff, you sure got opinions on how we think we should run things. Don't go thinking that Mystic's departure shows we're some disorganized mess. On the contrary, we at moderation have been able to make changes that have been a long time coming, similarly to the dev team. We're in much better shape than we ever were, so don't you worry about that.

Sorry for being so opinionated. I'm not aiming to offend you or anyone. I'm not saying Mystic's departure shows you're a disorganized mess. I'm saying the fact that it took so long shows you're a disorganized mess.

I don't doubt it's in better shape than before, but the condescending tone and behavior only continues to indicate that you think Mystic was the lone problem causer, one or two bad apples, and I think it's a structural issue.

I'm not exactly sure why someone would tie their personality to being Lord of a Sonic forum, but I don't think that's a healthy attitude to encourage in a community.

 

[xxBeanGirl420xx]

the black wedding

 

[Joki]

Why shouldn't a fangame community be democratic? Mystic wanted it to be authoritarian and that served whose benefit? None of us own Sonic, or the game. So why shouldn't it be democratic?

It's a Sonic fan game with a large chunk of the fan base being children, and you're saying it should be democratic? These rules right now are fine as is in my opinion. They're simple, and don't need to be jurasticly changed

 

[tealsummernights]

So both elitist and ableist.

Please look up what ableism actually is before you speak, please.

 

[Moose the Fat Cat]

It's a Sonic fan game with a large chunk of the fan base being children, and you're saying it should be democratic? These rules right now are fine as is in my opinion. They're simple, and don't need to be jurasticly changed

I don't get this argument. When I was in elementary school, we elected a student council. That's all a moderator is on a message board, really. They're hall monitors.

---------- Post added at 02:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 PM ----------

Please look up what ableism actually is before you speak, please.

(thinking man emoji)

 

[fickleheart]

This entire thread seems to be bad-faith arguments, but this one statement in particular pisses me off so much that I wanna say something:

There seems like a lot of failure by the Mods to recognize the Mystic/Rob toxic behaviors earlier before they spiraled out of control.

A large portion of the community staff around here, from moderators to developers etc, have been fed up with their behavior for years. But you can't just pull out the heads of a community overnight. The last person who made a concerted effort to change anything before now was permanently banned over it (disclaimer that I'm not defending that person otherwise).

The old leadership, for a long time, was very good at making their decisions appear reasonable even when they weren't. One element that led to my leaving dev that I didn't mention earlier was that they deliberately put off actually saying anything meaningful to me, no matter how much I begged for it; they waited until I snapped and did something that I couldn't defend, and used that to justify all of their other refusal to reason with me beforehand.

The only reason this time was different is because Mystic did something so egregious that it was completely indefensible, in a public location where he couldn't deny it or spin it, and Rob tried to back him up instead of aborting while he could. The following events have been described as a coup, and that's honestly what was needed to make anything happen: taking the powers that were handed over to the people now in charge, and using them to block out the old guard and finally make the changes that people had been wanting all this time.

You have been around for barely four months. You have no idea how much people have been struggling behind the scenes to make this change happen. Don't you dare accuse these people of being complicit when their hands have been tied, with no ability to make these changes, no matter how much they wanted to.

 

[Chrispy]

You're taking on fixing a problem that isn't yours to begin with. From an outside perspective you don't have the full context on the situation at hand nor do you have any insight into the machinations of the management to know enough about how it works to know that it's not.
You made the "suspicious moderators" comment before your other thread had justified moderative action taken upon it. You were fully aware that your post would be in bad taste which was way you felt the need to tag it with a disclaimer, you can't play the "if you moderate me you're no better than mystic" card to bypass the rules.

I'd rather not. But okay, I indicated what one obvious red flag would be, then D00D64 gave me an infraction for making a post that was something the mods and staff had already "decided" and didn't merit further discussion. He then made it personally insulting by saying it should be something I should easily be able to make myself. So both elitist and ableist.
So that would be an example of suspicious decision making, in my humble opinion.

Sorry for being so opinionated. I'm not aiming to offend you or anyone. I'm not saying Mystic's departure shows you're a disorganized mess. I'm saying the fact that it took so long shows you're a disorganized mess.

(thinking man emoji)

We are tempbanning you for trolling

 

[Steelie]

Not gonna lie, this stuff is getting tiresome.

1) As the OP/thread starter, I'm driving the discussion.
2) I don't think I'm anyone other than a poster here.
3) I think the idea is good.
4) Yes.

You're not driving the discussion, you're arguing a proposal that's been unanimously agreed is pointless. Any experience in moderation notwithstanding.

I'd rather not. But okay, I indicated what one obvious red flag would be, then D00D64 gave me an infraction for making a post that was something the mods and staff had already "decided" and didn't merit further discussion. He then made it personally insulting by saying it should be something I should easily be able to make myself. So both elitist and ableist.

It's been discussed to death already. At this point you're actively pestering people to make things you want. Closing these threads is within acceptable measures and this really feels more like an attack on D00D64 for being the moderator responsible for it.

I don't doubt it's in better shape than before, but the condescending tone and behavior only continues to indicate that you think Mystic was the lone problem causer, one or two bad apples, and I think it's a structural issue.

Hypocrite. From all your posts I've read on this thread it's yours displaying the most condescension. Inciting baseless arguments, cherry-picking from peoples' posts and an overall holier-than-thou attitude. I don't even care for being rude. You're getting on everyone's nerves. Please quit this behavior while you're ahead.

the black wedding

I love this.

 

[Tatsuru]

For anyone that might be still reading this, being a moderator is not what OP made it seem to be. This is much like a running a small store and inviting friends you know to help you run the store in case there's unsupervised kids throwing tantrums down the aisles. Except they're doing it for free, 100% voluntary. There's no perks or prizes. Occasionally someone barges into the store for the first time under new management and demands the owner to fire their trusted friends and open a hiring process to random people because they think they were purposefully negligent by not overthrowing the old manager when they felt like it.

Much to think about.

 

[clairebun]

I have to be real, I don't think I've ever read a single one of OP's posts from start to finish. Has no one ever told him that brevity is the soul of wit?

 

[TehRealSalt]

So much fluff, and it's all very vague. You wouldn't go into detail about what your problems with moderation are, you wouldn't go into detail about your issues with "all the suspicious moderators on Discord", all you gave was one really tame example of a minor infraction that just made you look like a gigantic grudge holder. You couldn't even say what your "community management" experience was.

There's also the fact that you pitched this with the intent to become a moderator. Doesn't really matter if you edited your post later or not; at worst, the edit just looks like a thinly veiled way to save face, at best it just makes you look like you didn't think any of this through.

This was pointless from the start; not even because I think there's no merit in your idea, but rather because of your own failure to argue effectively. You even had a great chance to defend it or be more cooperative; some of the arguments against the idea in here were actively terrible. When your ban expires, you need to stop, chill, and think your posts out. The fact that you've made constant edits & additional posts gives the impression that everything here was total spur of the moment, when the benefit of a message board over something more instant like Discord is being able to calmly and rationally create your posts with very little need to rush.