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Mechanical Minery (WIP)

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MudkipYeah!

Vastly Short Attention Span
Ok, this is Mechanical Minery, a work in progress zone at the moment. I have posted the first level up to see what should be changed and what should be kept. If most of you remember, this is Crawla Valley, but revamped to be more suitable. I have yet to start on the mechanical aesthetics of the act, so please don't freak out about it. Also note the orange is just colormap hating me. I wanted to use different colors, but doom builder said nope and didn't let me no matter what. This will be fixed. Otherwise, enjoy what I have so far.
Link:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/ctfhux
Images:


 
First off, maybe this is normal for maps that are released in the editing section, but trying to start a new game with this wad loaded crashed SRB2 for me. I was able to play the act by going into Multiplayer.

Secondly, I guess I won't comment on the colors much now, since you say some of them are bugged, but yeah, the color scheme is very ugly as it currently stands.

This map feels a bit wrong to me. Overall, it's very simplistic and can be beaten in under 50 seconds by a non-speed runner like myself. But it doesn't work as a first Zone in a map-pack because the design choices would confuse a first time player.

The very first area of the game is wide open and devoid of direction; you even put a pillar in the middle of the stage that would block anyone from seeing the one, and only, exit the room has. After exploring the area thoroughly, all I had was a shield, and extra life, and two chaos emeralds to thank for it. Because of the circular layout, I actually wondered if I had accidentally entered a Match map in third person mode by accident. While I like the idea of having a balcony that can be scaled for secrets, the room is way too large and empty right now.

The next room is a fine little platforming area. I'd like to know if people who don't use a WASD /w Strafing control scheme would have problems with it due to the angles, though.

After jumping up all the way, the map tricked me into thinking it diverged into two paths, but really, the bottom path just leads to a spring that leads to the exact same destination as not falling does. Pretty pointless.

After that comes the room with platforms above water. I liked jumping across these platforms, probably because I'm just a sucker for narrow tightropes like that. Falling down into the water leads to an uninteresting water maze with a few fish; completely uneventful.

Only now, halfway through the level, do we get the first point of divergence. I like how the two paths cross in the room with the lava; very scenic and gives you a tantalizing view of the path not taken. The left path seems to be the easier path, with a couple of crushing walls and rivers that can drag you to the third route. Nothing to say about the crushing walls. They're just kind of there, and seem out of place because the mining supplies have not yet been added to the wad.

If you get swept into the water though, it can be frustrating to get back out. You have to run all the way back to hit a spring that can launch you up to a higher platform. Naturally, after hitting a spring, your instinct is to move forward (especially since the player will be disoriented as to what is north and south after taking the short waterslide). But no, after hitting the spring, you have to immediately turn around and head the opposite direction. The player should be filtered to the next segment, not lead to a dead end.

Going back and taking the right path, you did something a bit more interesting with the crushing walls here by placing collapsing floors in the area. I'd expect that many players will die at the second pair of walls the first time they play this, especially if they are like me and were running forward so fast that they only ever vaguely heard the sound of breaking dirt behind them. If the crumbling floor led to the water segment, or fourth alternate route, it'd be fine. But leading to death is just a cheap trick that will work once on a player and then be bypassed without challenge on every subsequent attempt.

The final room in which the goal is located is also unnecessarily large for what it accomplishes, and the way the sign is tucked away in a little alcove feels awkward.

Overall, this level is okay, but more things stand out as bad than good. You should think about what this level is meant to be, because right now, it isn't enough of a challenge for advanced players, and isn't simple enough for newcomers. I'm not going to offer any specific suggestions for changes, because I'm not a level designer, but hopefully the issues I've pointed out will lead you to your own ideas on how to improve on your design.
 
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Ok appreciate the feedback so far. I see what you mean though. All those changes can be arranged. It may take a while but I can do that. Note that the top path is supposed to be the hardest, and the bottom path is more of a punishment.
 
Ok appreciate the feedback so far. I see what you mean though. All those changes can be arranged. It may take a while but I can do that. Note that the top path is supposed to be the hardest, and the bottom path is more of a punishment.

I like the idea of one path being harder than the other but offering more rewards (like the 1-up in between the second set of crush walls on the right path). But alternate paths shouldn't be seen as punishment, I don't think. If I fall from the tiny platforms that lead to the bridge, I shouldn't have to slog through an uneventful water section; there should be something at least almost as interesting as the upper path.

An example of this would be Starlight Zone in Sonic 1 for the Genesis (the most perfect Sonic game, and I will fight anyone who says otherwise). There are about three paths through each act; top, middle, and bottom. The top path offers the most opportunities for speed and shooting past large segments of the level, while the middle path serves as a safety net, and the bottom is a tricky platforming sequence across a bottomless pit. While accidentally falling from the top to the bottom, or the middle to the bottom, may not be what you wanted to do, and you may now have to deal with a more potentially deadly segment, it's still a unique experience in the level that is interesting and fun to check out at least once.

I'm not a speed runner, so I primarily play Sonic games to explore alternate routes and find new ways of going through levels, as well as finding secrets. Not all routes are created equally, but it'd be great if they could be. I believe that is what level designers should strive for.
 
Well first of all I really don't like sonic 1 mostly because of marble zone and labyrinth zone, secondly sonic 1 is more of a bad example. Despite srb2 being inspired by classic sonic, its mechanics, and the core of it overall, are completely different. Pulling off something like i did in mechanical minery on the last part was painfully time consuming. The process of making something like alternative routes is extremely difficult without making it look lazy. In sonic 1 though, pulling off what you describe is the equivalent to making a sandwich compared to srb2. Now am i saying this is an excuse? No. I admit I did get a bit lazy on the bottom route, mostly because trying to be original is hard these days, and my quite creative mind ran out of steam. Also, im gonna look into the sp crashing thing. Either way, Ill find a way to make the top and bottom route more interesting.
 
Well first of all I really don't like sonic 1 mostly because of marble zone and labyrinth zone, secondly sonic 1 is more of a bad example. Despite srb2 being inspired by classic sonic, its mechanics, and the core of it overall, are completely different. Pulling off something like i did in mechanical minery on the last part was painfully time consuming. The process of making something like alternative routes is extremely difficult without making it look lazy. In sonic 1 though, pulling off what you describe is the equivalent to making a sandwich compared to srb2. Now am i saying this is an excuse? No. I admit I did get a bit lazy on the bottom route, mostly because trying to be original is hard these days, and my quite creative mind ran out of steam. Also, im gonna look into the sp crashing thing. Either way, Ill find a way to make the top and bottom route more interesting.

Regardless of your own personal feelings on Sonic 1, I fail to see how the example I gave was bad. There isn't as much difference between SRB2 and the classic games as you think there is, and there are certainly more similarities with the 2D games than the 3D games. Good level design is good level design regardless of which dimension you are working in.

Good luck on the level. I look forward to seeing how you will improve it. :)
 
I really don't like sonic 1 mostly because of marble zone and labyrinth zone.

...I loved Sonic 1 because of those 2 zones. Well, with likings there are colors~
Anyway, to not go offtopic:

MudkipYeah! said:
I admit I did get a bit lazy on the bottom route, mostly because trying to be original is hard these days, and my quite creative mind ran out of steam.

I understand that, but if you want to be original, try basing off of actually created stuff, and from that, combine more and more things and you might create a neat gimmick for your levels, who knows? Maybe the Glacier Gear Zone and Gravity Garden Zone might give you good ideas of what to create later on to create nice, fun things. (Not to say your level is boring or anything, I'm just giving tips and stuff)
 
...I loved Sonic 1 because of those 2 zones. Well, with likings there are colors~
Anyway, to not go offtopic:

I understand that, but if you want to be original, try basing off of actually created stuff, and from that, combine more and more things and you might create a neat gimmick for your levels, who knows? Maybe the Glacier Gear Zone and Gravity Garden Zone might give you good ideas of what to create later on to create nice, fun things. (Not to say your level is boring or anything, I'm just giving tips and stuff)

You and I have similar tastes, it seems. :) Labyrinth Zone in particular is one of the best zones in the game, I think. Sonic 1's pacing is just fascinating to me for how it treats speed as a reward rather than the basis of the whole experience. The platforming and control is so tight, and the level design is well thought out. Compared to Sonic 2, which has levels that blend together into a blur of holding the right direction, and Sonic 3&K, which is usually brilliant but will periodically hit you with a cheap environmental kill or badnik, Sonic 1 is the most balanced of the three original games, in my mind.

I think once Mudkip incorporates the mining machinery into this map, there could be some good gimmicks coming from that. First thing my mind goes to is Fume Shaft from Tortured Planet, which has mine-cart sequences and platforms digging up gravel. That said, a level doesn't absolutely need new gameplay gimmicks to be fun, but it can help to distinguish a level from others.

[offtopic]I like Sonic Robo Blast 2 more.[/offtopic]

Heh, Sonic Robo Blast 2 is the only other Sonic game on my list of Top 10 Favorite Videogames, so I won't fault you for holding it above Sonic 1. I realize I'm in the minority with how I've put Sonic 1 on a pedestal. :P
 
I mean the process of building a level. Plus i hate sonic 1 for its sudden difficulty curve. Its ridiculously stupid for a difficulty curve.
 
I mean the process of building a level. Plus i hate sonic 1 for its sudden difficulty curve. Its ridiculously stupid for a difficulty curve.

Ah, I see what you mean now. I wouldn't know anything about the process of building a Sega Genesis game level, so you're probably right on that front. :P

But I'd say the difficulty curve of Sonic 1 is really smooth, if you don't come into the game with prejudices from Sonic 2, like most people did. The only really big "fuck you" moment in Sonic 1 is the Labyrinth Zone boss, which can be beaten easily once you know what to do, but is an outlier as far as the rest of the boss encounters went up to that point.

Sonic 3&K has the most unbalanced difficulty of the three games, in my opinion. The game loves to hit you with instant deaths that you just would not be able to avoid without knowing their location in advance. And because the game is 2D, it's harder to memorize locations of traps and enemies, at least for me. Still an amazing game, though, and barely more difficult than the first two.
 
Heh, Sonic Robo Blast 2 is the only other Sonic game on my list of Top 10 Favorite Videogames, so I won't fault you for holding it above Sonic 1. I realize I'm in the minority with how I've put Sonic 1 on a pedestal. :P
I don't really like Sonic 1 all that much, honestly. I like Sonic 2 much more than Sonic 1, and I like Team Fortress 2 more than Sonic 2, and some of the early Ratchet & Clank games more than Team Fortress 2, and... hm. Well, nothing really tops those games for me, but Sonic Robo Blast 2 is in there somewhere...
 
It's fine to post comparisons to the classic Sonic games when explaining how to fix level design flaws, but it's really not okay to go on a complete tangent about what your favorite classic Sonic game is in an unrelated thread. Keep your posts related to the topic, everyone.
 
If nobodies got any objections, I'm gonna begin on mechanical minery again today. This was to get feedback and see what i should do next. If you guys have any more bugs, oversights, or things i should just change, tell me, and ill try to get to it.
 
I don't want to ruin everything but you should manage to upload the wad somewhere else, sendspace will delete your file in a 30 day delay and some people won't be able to test your level because of that.
 
Why does it even matter? If this thread goes too long we lock it and require him submit to releases. It doesn't matter if his temporarily WIP thread link expires.
 
Anyways, here is my review of the level.
Firstly, the level is decent for a "beginer" mapper, nice job, really. Tough, the level was short (It was maybe intentionnal anyways), and there are not much path split :/
And also, the robots in the first section of the level are not facing the player, and they do not have eyes behind them, making them totally harmless...

Totally harmless crawlas! O_O They are so dangerous!
 
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