Match Level Rotation

[Mystic]

I split this off from the Suggestions topic because I think it would be better to discuss it in another topic so as to avoid cluttering the Suggestions topic. Relevant history quoted.

Bring back the old DM and CTF maps, from 1.08 and before. Those were fun and I don't see why they were taken out. We can keep the current rotations, but we've got about thirty map slots unused and this would be a great way to use them.

Actually, we have over a thousand map slots unused. Old maps are replaced with new maps to make it so that we don't end up with a ton of maps in the basic rotation, or else some of the ones later on the rotation will never actually be played on. Ten is a good number, both in terms of space in the level numbers and in terms of the fact that it's about the number of maps people would play through in an extended session of DM. I will note that we have resurrected old maps in the past, however to do it we'll have to remove an already existant map at this point. Eventually if we actually get dedicated servers that can go through the whole rotation or people starting on maps OTHER than MAP90, I'd consider upping the count, but at this point in time I'd like to keep the number low enough that people will actually play through them all.

I said keep the current rotations. I mean put older maps into unused slots, like put a new Match rotation of older maps in 60-70 or something, another one in 70-80, and put older CTF maps in other areas and stuff. I miss the variety we had in older versions-I'm not saying to replace new maps with old ones.

Actually, check through 1.09 and directly compare the maps with those from 1.08 and older versions. You should find more variety in designs. I WILL admit we need 2 DECENT homing maps, but other than that, all the weapon rings are used and in vastly varied level designs. The fact that they're replacing the maps is INTENTIONAL. I'm fully aware that I have all the slots in the world. In fact, an earlier version of 1.09 had around 17-18 match stages. However, that came with a little problem: None of the maps beyond around MAP94 tend to be played. There is a reason Sapphire Falls was moved from MAP98 to MAP93. If we want more maps, we're going to need people playing longer games so they actually GET to the end. I mean, when was the last time you actually played a match on Zim's Base? It's last in the rotation, so it never gets played. If we had 20 match stages, a significant amount of them wouldn't get any play time, and I want all the stages in the game to get played a significant amount.

Bring back Starlit Warehouse.

bring back Starlit warehouse (whatever its called), Midnight Abbys(SP?)

I agree. Starlit Warehouse was really neat looking. However, it needs some real work in order to play better. Sometime when I have the patience I'll revamp it. Personally, I always loved Midnight Abyss, however, I will note that back when 1.08 was out, Midnight Abyss was generally hated by most people, and I removed it for that reason. Heck, I even have a modified and improved version of it on my hard drive, it was originally going to be in 1.09, I just removed it because of general dislike for the map more than anything else. In general, if a map was skipped when people played, I removed it.

Erase Nimbus Ruins. Bring back GOOD Capture the Flag levels from the earlier demos. The ones which aren't floating over a giant death pit.

Like what? There were three canned stages: Vine Cavern, Iron Warehouse and Twin Hills. Vine Cavern had like, no gameplay at all, Iron Warehouse suffered from the same flaws as Vine Cavern, and Twin Hills had no flow. Nimbus Ruins, while quite difficult, has interesting gameplay, and I've had a ton of fun playing rounds on it, and the constant threat of death provides a lot of intensity that is not going to be found on other stages. Vine Cavern, Iron Warehouse and Twin Hills, quite simply, were not the best of maps, and were not up to the quality standards we try to keep around here.

Better idea.
How about, like, the map map40's occupy all the 1.08 match levels? Razz
EDIT: Hehe, how about a totally seperate mode? Like, instead of choosing Team Match, or MAtch, you can chooce 1.08 match! everything is JUST like 1.08, from the non-nerfed knuckles to the bad control tails to the item boxes. Better yet, have that be unlockable, as well as other things like old SRB2 sonic (with more extreme sprites) old SRB2 SP courses from like, demo 2, etc etc.

This defeats the point. Some of 1.08's match stages are real stinkers, and I don't think anyone will deny it. Green Upheaval and Chaos Space are both pretty darn bad, and most people just outright skipped them. Techno Isle is fun when everyone is Tails or Knuckles, but it's nearly unplayable as Sonic. These stages were generally removed for a good reason.

In general, I don't think the multiplayer levels should be static, and having them be static would be the death of the game. Changing the levels in the rotation regularly helps keep the game interesting and not be a bunch of matches on the same stages over and over again. I try and remove the maps that are the least liked or the least entertaining, but honestly, when there are only 10 maps in the rotation, it's pretty much guaranteed someone is going to like any map I decide to remove. Part of the problem was that it took well over a year between 1.08 and 1.09, and people grew very attached to the stages in the game, and it seems they didn't expect them to change. I always intended to change them, and if maps in 1.09 are found to be bad or otherwise not as fun as the others, you should expect those maps to be removed and replaced with other, hopefully new maps in a future version.

However, it seems like there is a significant portion of the population that really wants these maps back, so I'm moving this topic into General Discussion in order to get general opinions on it. The match level design is something I care about, since it's one of the few things in SRB2 I pretty much do on my own, so I would love to hear opinions on what you do and don't like about it.

 

[Ritz]

I, for one, liked Midnight Abyss, but I completely understood why it was removed, so I didn't bring it up. Vine Cavern, however chaste, was still a fairly decent CTF map in my opinion. I never quite understood how Iron Warehouse managed to get into the game in the first place, but it could've worked if the map had been stretched out a bit.

 

[Mystic]

The problem with Vine Cavern is that it's essentially a straight pathway with no alternate paths. The alternate paths exist, I guess, but they're useless. Also, playing as anyone other than Sonic is utterly pointless, since there isn't any vertical movement at all. Removing the thok when carrying the flag just proved even more that the map sucked. Iron Turret is similar to Vine Cavern in simplicity, but at least it has some vertical space and isn't cramped, making it much better. Honestly, I wish we had 10 CTF maps with the quality level of Silver Cascade, but we just don't.

 

[Spazzo]

Green Upheaval map was actually one of my favorites, and i saw no reason why it stank.
The REAL thing we truly need is an 1.08 map with the weapon rings changed to rail-homing...

Nimbus Ruins, while quite difficult, has interesting gameplay, and I've had a ton of fun playing rounds on it, and the constant threat of death provides a lot of intensity that is not going to be found on other stages.

I totally agree with Mystic. Nimbus ruins is my favorite CTF map, as well as my favorite map for making the ring respawn 0, gravity 0.1, forceskin tails, and duking it out from opposite sides of the field with ST218 :P

 

[Shuffle]

Ugh, is Vine Cavern that one place with a really low ceiling and a bunch of vines everywhere? Man, that level was around for a LONG time. It was terrible, too. I'm glad it's gone. X_x

 

[Liliam]

I mean, when was the last time you actually played a match on Zim's Base? It's last in the rotation, so it never gets played. If we had 20 match stages, a significant amount of them wouldn't get any play time, and I want all the stages in the game to get played a significant amount.

Actually, Zim's Base is a frequent. It is true, though, that in some netgames the server end up being shut down around Hydro Plant and such.

I just removed it because of general dislike for the map more than anything else. In general, if a map was skipped when people played, I removed it.

In that case, I believe you should get rid of Hydro Plant. HPZ is a very well-thought map, which plays pretty damn well, but even so, people tend to dislike it and skip it. I can't blame them - it's a bit tough.

There were three canned stages: Vine Cavern, Iron Warehouse and Twin Hills. Vine Cavern had like, no gameplay at all, Iron Warehouse suffered from the same flaws as Vine Cavern, and Twin Hills had no flow.

Maybe, since we're having shortage of CTF maps, the better option would be to stick in the best 10. That way, the players would decide for you which were the best and should be kept. I agree that most of them fail in specific points, but hey, it's all we've got. Of course I'd love to have 10 maps as good as Silver Cascade, however they don't exist as of now, so we should play with what we have.

As for Nimbus Ruins, the greatest deal I have with it is how easily you can fall off. If you're playing a netgame and suddenly it lag-freezes, 50% of the times you'll end up on a death pit. Also, it's very easy to fall off if the server has a but a bit of control delay.

If we had CTF-only map contests, with something worth fighting for, I'd figure we would have a LOT more CTF maps - good ones.

 

[Kaos the Hedgehog]

I second the contest motion.

And no i won't dance. 8)

 

[Spazzo]

Hydro Plant. now theres a map I hate.
You should revert it to what it used to be, with the special stage theme. Now, I understand that its unique and that its underwater, but mabye you should add onto it an area above water, or even a button to decrease the water level.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

I still have that one CTF map I could touch up; Mystic had an interest at one time to include it in the real SRB2 (My Blood Gulch ripoff). It needs some polishing, though. I'd be willing to give a shot at remaking it. Would also make a good contest entry if we did a contest for CTF maps.

 

[FuriousFox]

I'm guessing that none of you have noticed that there is a CTF division in the Jan/Feb contest.

 

[Spazzo]

I still have that one CTF map I could touch up; Mystic had an interest at one time to include it in the real SRB2 (My Blood Gulch ripoff). It needs some polishing, though. I'd be willing to give a shot at remaking it. Would also make a good contest entry if we did a contest for CTF maps.

It would be nice if you could post the wad so we can see how awesome it is...
;)

 

[Liliam]

I'm guessing that none of you have noticed that there is a CTF division in the Jan/Feb contest.

Yes, I am aware of the division, but I meant a separate contest, only for CTF, with a prize. That way people would really work hard on their maps. The prize? Maybe some scrapped stages, like the old "Redesign the Website" contest.

Of course, this is by all means completely and utterly unnecessary, since people could work just as hard and submit their stuff to the January/February contest. But any conscient human being would really work hard for an old version of Deep Sea =P

However, seeing as this will probably not happen anytime soon, I guess I'll can my match maps for the contest in favor of CTF maps. I hadn't begun desiging them in the first place, so =P

It would be nice if you could post the wad so we can see how awesome it is...

Oh, it's awesome. Awesomely awesome. Judging by the screenshots, at least.

 

[Mystic]

Actually, Zim's Base is a frequent. It is true, though, that in some netgames the server end up being shut down around Hydro Plant and such.

I rarely play in games that get all the way to Zim's Base. Either through instability or because the host has to go, the game generally shuts down somewhere in the realm of MAP93-97. I rarely end up on games of either Zero Ring or Zim's Base.

In that case, I believe you should get rid of Hydro Plant. HPZ is a very well-thought map, which plays pretty damn well, but even so, people tend to dislike it and skip it. I can't blame them - it's a bit tough.

Hydro Plant. now theres a map I hate.
You should revert it to what it used to be, with the special stage theme. Now, I understand that its unique and that its underwater, but mabye you should add onto it an area above water, or even a button to decrease the water level.

I try and stick in at least one "hard" map into every version, because I know a few people actually enjoy them. This version had Hydro Plant and Noxious Factory as its two. I've been considering minor modifications to make Hydro Plant less threatening, and to move players around the stage more, but yes, I know full well those maps are not as well liked.

Maybe, since we're having shortage of CTF maps, the better option would be to stick in the best 10. That way, the players would decide for you which were the best and should be kept. I agree that most of them fail in specific points, but hey, it's all we've got. Of course I'd love to have 10 maps as good as Silver Cascade, however they don't exist as of now, so we should play with what we have.

I did put all of the maps that were decent enough to be played. I don't consider Iron Turret and Cloud Palace to be particularly good maps. However, they at least play moderately decently, which is more than I can say for several of the canned maps, which were just plain bad. I don't want to have a map in SRB2 that absolutely every player who has played it already will just want to skip. The removed maps were that kind of quality.

As for Nimbus Ruins, the greatest deal I have with it is how easily you can fall off. If you're playing a netgame and suddenly it lag-freezes, 50% of the times you'll end up on a death pit. Also, it's very easy to fall off if the server has a but a bit of control delay.

I am fully aware of that, however, does that mean I should ignore any concepts over a bottomless pit for fears of lag making it worse than usual? Personally, most of the games I've played on Nimbus Ruins didn't have that issue, and in the few cases where it was unplayable because of lag, we just warped to another map. I think the advantages of having an interesting map outweigh the downsides of having that map be crappy in high-lag conditions (which I admit are most of the time in SRB2).

If we had CTF-only map contests, with something worth fighting for, I'd figure we would have a LOT more CTF maps - good ones.

This is the exact reason that I added the CTF contest to the bimonthly contest. However, I will note that we don't really HAVE any prizes of real interest. The canned stages were canned for an actual reason: They suck. Hard. After the first time we did that contest, the winner would assumedly release the maps somewhere (I was incredibly surprised the last time we did that, the maps didn't become public soon afterwards).

Cool "prizes" are great, but we really don't have anything to give away. Really, I think the motivation of there being a possibility of getting into SRB2's level rotation should be enough, and there isn't much more we can really provide.

I still have that one CTF map I could touch up; Mystic had an interest at one time to include it in the real SRB2 (My Blood Gulch ripoff). It needs some polishing, though. I'd be willing to give a shot at remaking it. Would also make a good contest entry if we did a contest for CTF maps.

If you'd fix that up I'd really appreciate it. To put it simply, I'm too lazy to change all the texture names myself ^_^()

 

[Ritz]

I rarely play in games

Fixed. Really, I can't remember the last time I've ever seen you in a netgame. Besides, the past few games I've been in made it through Zims's base at least twice. Probably more, though at that point, I usually wind up quiting long before the server does.

 

[Mystic]

Fixed. Really, I can't remember the last time I've ever seen you in a netgame. Besides, the past few games I've been in made it through Zims's base at least twice. Probably more, though at that point, I usually wind up quiting long before the server does.

I occasionally play in FF's servers, but I admit to not playing all that much anymore. We really need a few more people at FF's skill level and above. I play a lot more around the match contests, since it's more fun on maps I didn't make myself ^_^()

 

[Monsteriestyn]

Andy and me are close to FF. Some other people too. But yeah it stinks how usually the good people don't go in and only the unexperienced go.

 

[ST218]

What I mean by having more maps in, is to put a seperate rotation in. If I go on IRC and say I want to host a match game, I want to give people a choice: Which maps? Use the MAP90-99 rotation? Maybe 70-79 this time? Also, this way, you could group maps by difficulty. You said it yourself Hydro Plant is a "hard" map. If we had more hard maps like that, we could have a seperate "expert" rotation.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

I still have that one CTF map I could touch up; Mystic had an interest at one time to include it in the real SRB2 (My Blood Gulch ripoff). It needs some polishing, though. I'd be willing to give a shot at remaking it. Would also make a good contest entry if we did a contest for CTF maps.

If you'd fix that up I'd really appreciate it. To put it simply, I'm too lazy to change all the texture names myself ^_^()

Oh, no. I changed all the texture names already. One nifty feature I found in DoomBuilder was a "Find and Replace" option that worked for just about anything - including textures. Took like 10 seconds to remove the SASRB2 textures and convert them over to SRB2 native textures.

But there's certain parts of the layout I'm kind of unhappy with. I feel I could do a better job if I remade it.

 

[Shadow Hog]

One nifty feature I found in DoomBuilder was a "Find and Replace" option that worked for just about anything - including textures.

Wait, it had what?

Man, I needed that earlier. Bah...

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

I'm pretty sure it was DoomBuilder, yeah.