Compared to DOOM2.EXE...

[Darkhaven3]

OK, first off, I'm sure alot of you out there have probably forgotten me, but whatever. Anyway, I have a few questions related to comparisons with the original DOOM2.EXE. First off, a little backstory:

Right now I'm using DooM Builder (I've already compiled my own configuration) to create a 128 map set (and on that subject, DooM Builder makes the editing go a little faster, so it should all be done in a matter of months) and I ran into a few questions that I wasn't sure about.

1. Does SRB2 support "Infinite Nodes" (except 64k linedefs, even ZDBSP doesn't solve that so I'm used to that)

2. Are there any visplane problems I should be worried about? As a true DooM mapper, I've gotten into making insanely detailed maps, but obviously in DOOM2.EXE there's a Visplane Overflow problem I would be bound to run into eventually, as soon as my maps got too detailed.

3. Should I worry about Seg-Overflows, also ala-DOOM2.EXE?

4. Why doesn't the engine allow for proper use of Impassible lines? Is it something to do with the way the camera deals with them?

5. Why aren't the textures and flats in DOOM2.WAD or DOOM.WAD read by SRB2WIN.EXE? In most of my experimental maps I've been toying around with, all I get is a big red wall.

6. Is there some kind of insane reason that negative-heights in a sector are not allowed? I've used them quite alot and they work just perfect.

 

[Sik]

Two answers:

4th. Yes. The camera doesn't detect any collision with them, then the camera can pass thought them.

6th. It's not a safe issue yet (I think).

 

[Mystic]

I'll answer the ones I know.

1. Does SRB2 support "Infinite Nodes" (except 64k linedefs, even ZDBSP doesn't solve that so I'm used to that)

SRB2 uses a normal nodesbuild. Personally, I use Zennode. The next version, 1.09, does include a function that allows the game to build its own blockmap, so that nasty limit goes away.

4. Why doesn't the engine allow for proper use of Impassible lines? Is it something to do with the way the camera deals with them?

SRB2 does not use Impassible linedefs because they aren't REALLY impassible. Sonic moves fast enough that it is fully possible for him to pass by a line trigger, and go beyond it. Hence, everything that requires collision detection in SRB2 is done with sectors. All of the Doom linedef triggers don't work in SRB2 for the same reason. This is why you will see a sector surrounding the entire map in SRB2. If that sector wasn't there, it's actually possible to double jump right through the wall and get outside the map. If you need to make something impassible, put in a transparent floor over floor at least 32 units thick.

5. Why aren't the textures and flats in DOOM2.WAD or DOOM.WAD read by SRB2WIN.EXE? In most of my experimental maps I've been toying around with, all I get is a big red wall.

SRB2 loads data from an its own IWAD, called srb2.srb. Doom's textures are not used in SRB2 at all, and there is no reason to load Doom's IWAD. The game is totally standalone for that reason. The red wall is SRB2's "texture not found" display, keeping the game from crashing when you load a map with textures that don't exist.

In addition, the graphics inside srb2.srb frequently share names with graphics in doom2.wad. Henceforth, using Doom textures in SRB2 is pretty much impossible because in order to get them into the game, you'd have to add doom2.wad itself, and in doing so you'd overwrite many of the important graphics in SRB2, like the rings, enemies, and textures.

Pretty much, I'd suggest actually using the textures that SRB2 itself uses, by loading the textures from srb2.srb during level creation.

6. Is there some kind of insane reason that negative-heights in a sector are not allowed? I've used them quite alot and they work just perfect.

Negative heights work fine. However, if the sky is less than 0 and you have precipitation, the game will crash out because of the fact that the way precipitation works is a hack, and we haven't touched it because the hack makes it work really fast ^_~

Hence, it is suggested you avoid using negative heights when possible when working with SRB2.

 

[Darkhaven3]

Thanks Sik & Mystic :) If it reads NODES, SEGS, SSECTORS, etc. the same way DOOM2.EXE does, that's all I need to know to answer 2 and 3 for myself :P

Oh, also, out of curiosity would DEHACKED patches be read inside a user-made WAD just as Legacy does, or is the engine so vastly different that the Frame and Codepointer References become completely obsolete?

 

[Shadow Hog]

1) I'll just go with Mystic's explanation, because I wasn't aware of node limits.

2) Pretty much every source port around has obliterated the ever-irritating visplane overflow from the code. You needn't worry about it.

3) I've never gotten one, but then, I've never heard of them.

4) What Mystic said; Sonic thoks right through.

5) As Mystic said (jeez, I'm sounding like some kind of recording here): DOOM2.WAD is a separate file completely unneeded for SRB2. If you want to use them, you have to add them yourself. I have a tutorial on that in the Archives; go look over it if you want.

6) Uh... what Mystic said (again).

7) DEHACKED patches are not readable by SRB2. Or rather, they ARE readable, but you have to name them as "*.soc", or as a lump in a WAD called "OBJCTCFG". The results will, most likely, NOT be as desired, though, since SRB2 takes some liberty with the Thing list and bitsets.

 

[Mystic]

Thanks Sik & Mystic :) If it reads NODES, SEGS, SSECTORS, etc. the same way DOOM2.EXE does, that's all I need to know to answer 2 and 3 for myself :P

Oh, also, out of curiosity would DEHACKED patches be read inside a user-made WAD just as Legacy does, or is the engine so vastly different that the Frame and Codepointer References become completely obsolete?

Dehacked doesn't exist in SRB2 at all. Check the archives of the forum to look at the SOC format, which is our scripting system.

 

[Sik]

A suggestion: never associate SRB2 with DOOM. Both games are totally differents. The only thing is that SRB2 uses WADs, but except this, both games haven't anything relation.

 

[Shadow Hog]

Wrong, incorrect, and I'm sorry, you lose. Despite what you're implying, SRB2 is NOT entirely different from DOOM given that a lot of things have carried over. IWADs. PWADs. Sectors, linedefs, and the whole general map system. Things. A good deal of the flags for these Things. A lack of slopes. Visplanes (just no overflows). Rockets (well, Eggman's fire is technically a leftover of that; specifically, the Cyberdemon's, though it doesn't explode). Main color for sprites is green. All sounds must start with "DS". DEHACKED, despite what Mystic says, in the form of SOCs (there are some differences, obviously, but for most intents and purposes the format's the same). I could probably name more if I had to.

 

[JetKrazy]

Actually, Sik is basically right. SRB2 uses the DOOM engine, which includes all the wads and map stuff. Besides that, SRB2 has totally different features

 

[Sik]

Yeah. That SRB2 uses the Doom engine and the same map format (WAD) isn't the same that SRB2 is similar to Doom. The only thing that they are similar are the engine used. Nothing more.

 

[Shadow Hog]

They're really NOT as different as you claim, though. I've already listed most of the stuff. While a good deal of it is totally different, a good deal is pretty much the same, too.

 

[Omega the Hedgehog]

The whole level sized limit is something that has prevented us from releasing SRB2 Universe II to this very day. It's finished, it's just to damned huge to run without crashing.

 

[Darkhaven3]

if your map is over 32768 sectors and it's at the level of detail in most of the maps i've seen here, it's got to be larger than the 32768x32768 space allowed in the DooM engine. Either that or you must have alot of 3D floors?

 

[Mystic]

Darkhaven, the blockmap is the major killer. At the sizes we're using, the blockmap will hit 128K REALLY fast. This limitation will exhibit itself quite quickly, and most of the stages you see in SRB2 itself are rather large in this regard, with THZ1 breaking 100K, if I recall.

This is why 1.09 contains an internal blockmap builder, to get around this issue, since we don't want to have to deal with such a glaring limitation in map size.

The low level of detail is generally done to keep framerate sane, since we all know what would happen if you came up to a room of the sizes we're using with the detail of say, a ZDoom mapper. Not to mention how insanely long it would take to make one map at that level of detail with the sizes we use.

 

[SSNTails]

Wrong, incorrect, and I'm sorry, you lose. Despite what you're implying, SRB2 is NOT entirely different from DOOM given that a lot of things have carried over.

IWADs. PWADs. Sectors, linedefs, and the whole general map system.

That's kinda why you don't write something from scratch...

Things.

:: Like what? Would you rather we change all of the thing #s to make it insanely hard to use your choice of map editor?

A good deal of the flags for these Things.

Easy. Medium. Hard. That's it.

A lack of slopes. Visplanes (just no overflows).

Which is why you don't write your own, again.

Main color for sprites is green.

Pop open KNUX.PLR and say that again.

All sounds must start with "DS".

That would take two keystrokes to change.

DEHACKED, despite what Mystic says, in the form of SOCs (there are some differences, obviously, but for most intents and purposes the format's the same). I could probably name more if I had to.

The syntax for Dehacked is pretty different from SOC. I think the only thing that is a little similar is the format for defining sprite animations - if it's already there, why change it?

I probably should have broken compatibility with everything so that people couldn't say this stuff and forced you to use a level editor that we probably still wouldn't have finished writing. (HAHAHAHAHAHA)

 

[Omega the Hedgehog]

Presicely what you've done with Wizard, making it hard for me and JTE to work on our little mod thing for it. Oh well, the editing tools you released are better than nothing, I suppose.

Soon enough, AJ. Soon enough... *skinned alive*

 

[SSNTails]

Ehe.... a Wizard mod??? o_o What are you doing? What other tools would you need?

 

[hotdog003]

The source code, for starters. *beaned*

 

[Shadow Hog]

Things.

:: Like what? Would you rather we change all of the thing #s to make it insanely hard to use your choice of map editor?

No. I never said having relation with DOOM was a BAD thing. :P

A good deal of the flags for these Things.

Easy. Medium. Hard. That's it.

MF_SOLID. MF_SHOOTABLE. MF_NOSECTOR. MF_NOBLOCKMAP. Need I go on, or do you get the point of what I mean by "flags"?

Main color for sprites is green.

Pop open KNUX.PLR and say that again.

"that again"

In all seriousness, though, you technically have to specify that it's red that you want. If you don't specify doesn't it default to green anyways? I'll admit I've not dabbled in much sprite editing, so I don't know.

All sounds must start with "DS".

That would take two keystrokes to change.

But the point wasn't that you could change it, it was that it was still the same NOW. ^_^

(And if you want to be anal, it'd be a lot more than two keystrokes since you'd have to rename all the lumpfiles that start with "DS" to whatever you change it to. Not that it's impossible to make/get a program to do that for you, but still.)

DEHACKED, despite what Mystic says, in the form of SOCs (there are some differences, obviously, but for most intents and purposes the format's the same). I could probably name more if I had to.

The syntax for Dehacked is pretty different from SOC. I think the only thing that is a little similar is the format for defining sprite animations - if it's already there, why change it?

I think a few other things carried over, too, like seesound, deathsound, etc. But hey, if you want to change it, it's your game, not mine.

I probably should have broken compatibility with everything so that people couldn't say this stuff and forced you to use a level editor that we probably still wouldn't have finished writing. (HAHAHAHAHAHA)

If you want to, I ain't stoppin' ya.