Character Balance Discussion

[Fred]

I think we need to consider making it so dropped items can not be picked up by anybody until the player who dropped them can pick them up. This would remove some of the luck factor and balance issues with close-vs-distant combat. If we have a need to convey this, we could make dropped items translucent until the player is back to a state where he can pick them up again.

This, oh my god, this. If anything it would prevent that annoying scenario where someone gets shot and someone else (including the shooter) blows through them and instantly gets all of their stock because it spawns in a tight little cluster. I love it.

 

[Zubat]

I don't really know how I feel about the specific weapon change idea for Tails... Knuckles getting exclusive hurt-on-contact is something I'm reeeally shaky about.

Let's not forget that, if these features were to be added, the mechanics still have to go through some major testing and tweaking before anything could be made official and deemed "balanced." Rob's proposal is the best thing on this thread so far, but as good of ideas they are, they're just ideas.

Personally, I think Rob's proposed mechanics would make the game more balanced, but Knuckles' buff does seem a bit harsh. I'm all for the dropped item idea and Tails' weapon buffs, but Knuckles' ability to injure other players on contact seems like it could be a bit too much. Maybe there should be a cool down or a ring requirement to use it similar to Sonic Adventure 2's multiplayer. Maybe adding character-specific abilities that drain rings to use would help level out things more.

 

[Puppyfaic]

If everyone feels that iffy about Knuckles always being able to hurt other players on contact, why not make it so that Knuckles can hurt players on contact whenever he's jumping, spinning, or gliding? That was, Knuckles players can't activate brain-dead autopilot mode and bulldoze through everyone.

Here's the real question, though: What happens if two Knuckles players run into each other?

 

[Superjustinbros]

Reminds me of back when I wanted some kind of melee feature that short of acted like a very short-range ring shot, kind of like how Doom had the punch attack and the chainsaw.

Hm. A Saw Ring.

 

[Sapheros]

If everyone feels that iffy about Knuckles always being able to hurt other players on contact, why not make it so that Knuckles can hurt players on contact whenever he's jumping, spinning, or gliding? That was, Knuckles players can't activate brain-dead autopilot mode and bulldoze through everyone.

Here's the real question, though: What happens if two Knuckles players run into each other?

Actually to add on to this, why knuckles? What's stopping Sonic and his friends from spin jumping into each other to hurt them? That's what i think match should *REALLY* be, an actual brawl on against the players. I mean, if Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles can hurt each other like that in Sonic 3, why not here?

 

[Rob]

Because at that point, you are defeating the purpose of having Knuckles be your close-combat character and spreading what would give him strong utility in that area. Remember that to have balance, you need to have abilities that allow each character to perform a role. Spreading an ability like that around means that you are actively dissuading people from playing Knuckles as Sonic then becomes a strictly better option.

 

[Mystic]

So what I think this means is that we need to look at options for making weapons good to use at range when playing Tails.

This is the reasoning behind giving Tails a global projectile speed increase. The original design for Knuckles in 2.0 involved similar weapon-specific changes, but we decided against it because it was incredibly complicated, instead going with his firing rate increase because it was easier to code and understand as a player. Match-specific changes should be simple enough to explain in a single, simple sentence.

I think we need to consider making it so dropped items can not be picked up by anybody until the player who dropped them can pick them up. This would remove some of the luck factor and balance issues with close-vs-distant combat. If we have a need to convey this, we could make dropped items translucent until the player is back to a state where he can pick them up again.

I think we should change the method of dropping everything and instead have a tiered structure of what gets dropped to try to deal with this issue. Being in close combat comes with its own set of risks, and the reward of having a better shot at stealing things seems reasonable to me. Your suggestion would also nerf the most fun part of invincibility, ramming someone and getting all their drops instantly.

How about forcing a maximum bounce height on dropped rings/wheepons/etc? Something like 200 units (14ish fracunits thrust), maybe. Do it in all game modes so it's consistent, since it's not a thing that's going to really affect balance in other modes, but will make it easier to pick up dropped weapons. That along with changing the spilled ring pickups' collectability like Rob said would probably solve the issue of Tails and Knuckles having a hard time getting spilled pickups.

This is a very reasonable idea and I support it.

What if we made players solid to their enemies in match gametypes? (I know you can already do that with the tailspickup cvar, but I'm talking as a default.) That'd help making it harder for Sonic to plow through people, at least.

We used to do this long ago, and it lead to weird situations where two players would collide and stick to each other, and the first person to realize what happened and fire got everything from the opponent. It was not a good mechanic. If we created proper player collision where players bounce off each other this could work, but otherwise it's a really bad idea.

Here's the real question, though: What happens if two Knuckles players run into each other?

Turns out, we had the idea of giving Knuckles melee attacks when we were designing 2.0, and we decided against it because of this very issue. The idea of changing the weapons and then later giving him a firing rate buff came later.

Actually to add on to this, why knuckles? What's stopping Sonic and his friends from spin jumping into each other to hurt them? That's what i think match should *REALLY* be, an actual brawl on against the players. I mean, if Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles can hurt each other like that in Sonic 3, why not here?

They sure can't in multiplayer Sonic 3, I'll remind you. The only encounter in the classics where they can hurt each other is the Knuckles joke of a boss fight in Sonic 3K, and I don't think I have to tell you how lame that fight is. You're also trying to hit players in melee with latency, and if you've ever used invincibility in SRB2 match to hit someone I shouldn't have to tell you how hard that is to do.

 

[Puppyfaic]

I think we should change the method of dropping everything and instead have a tiered structure of what gets dropped to try to deal with this issue. Being in close combat comes with its own set of risks, and the reward of having a better shot at stealing things seems reasonable to me. Your suggestion would also nerf the most fun part of invincibility, ramming someone and getting all their drops instantly.

Does this not fall into the category of "fun for the skilled, not fun for the lesser-skilled"? Isn't this what you were trying to avoid in the first place by re-vamping the Multplayer Emeralds, adding Pity Shields, etc? It's not exactly fun to get hit out of nowhere and suddenly lose EVERYTHING you had, having to suddenly scramble to find another ring before you die and have to completely start over.

 

[clairebun]

If I could shift the topic for just a minute, what's our stance on the current weapon ring balance?

 

[Mystic]

It's not exactly fun to get hit out of nowhere and suddenly lose EVERYTHING you had, having to suddenly scramble to find another ring before you die and have to completely start over.

I think the structure of the ring, weapon and ammo loss needs to be looked at because of this, but it doesn't really mean that invincibility ramming is OP. Melee hits with invincibility are really hard, so the reward of taking all their drops instantly is pretty reasonable. The issue is that currently their drops are "everything they had", which is too punishing.

If I could shift the topic for just a minute, what's our stance on the current weapon ring balance?

Grenade is a bit underpowered, but otherwise I think the weapon balance is actually doing really well. As stated we plan to add a new weapon which has a faster projectile speed as another mid and long range option, but otherwise I think we're actually doing shockingly well on weapon balance considering.

 

[Puppyfaic]

What if drops are tiered? Shields -> Weapons -> Emeralds/Rings. If you get hit while you have a shield, you lose your shield but keep everything. If you get hit while you have weapons in stock, you lose your weapons but keep your rings. If you don't have any weapons, getting hit makes you lose all the rings you had.

 

[TehRealSalt]

The tier system sounds nice, but I would rather see emeralds be first, either with or before shields.

5 SEC. EDIT: Then again it's a moot point, considering that Super forms in Match are being removed. (only remembered this after posting...)

 

[Sapheros]

What if drops are tiered? Shields -> Weapons -> Emeralds/Rings. If you get hit while you have a shield, you lose your shield but keep everything. If you get hit while you have weapons in stock, you lose your weapons but keep your rings. If you don't have any weapons, getting hit makes you lose all the rings you had.

I don't know... I Think Rings and Emeralds should be before Weapons, at least you can shoot again with your ammo intact so you can at least run from the encounter, and go to shoot another.

 

[Zwip-Zwap Zapony]

I don't know... I Think Rings and Emeralds should be before Weapons, at least you can shoot again with your ammo intact so you can at least run from the encounter, and go to shoot another.

You do realize Rings are ammunition, right? If Rings go before special weapons... what do you have to fire back with?
If that was your point, though, making players unable to shoot back instantly once they land on their feet, then... *Shrug* It just wouldn't make sense to survive after being hit with 0 Rings, due to having a special weapon, and it wouldn't make sense to keep special weapons until death no matter what (except Recycler monitors), either.

 

[Puppyfaic]

You do realize Rings are ammunition, right? If Rings go before special weapons... what do you have to fire back with?

And this is exactly the basis for my suggestion. If you get hit and only lose your weapons, you have a chance to pursue your attacker and regain your weapons, or remove their shield if they have one. This tier status promotes exploration for weapons in order to protect your rings, and promotes more aggressive play by all players by allowing them to immediately counter attack if struck, and by removing the fear of being hit when possessing weapons. I see it as a way to make Ringslinger gametypes much healthier. Rings are both ammunition and health, and you shouldn't lose everything for getting hit once.

 

[VelocitOni]

The stubborn arbitrary everything-is-gone-in-one-hit-because-Sonic system is why I find SRB2 multiplayer to be garbage, among several other reasons. With how much you're punished for getting hit a single time, it may as well be Contra.

PSSSSST, HINTS ON HOW TO FIX:
- Shadow the Hedgehog ringloss in multiplayer
- Losing the weapon panels should only happen if you don't have a set amount of ammo for each weapon minimum. Players who stocked a ton of weapons shouldn't lose it all so quickly.

 

[Zwip-Zwap Zapony]

And this is exactly the basis for my suggestion. If you get hit and only lose your weapons, you have a chance to pursue your attacker and regain your weapons, or remove their shield if they have one. This tier status promotes exploration for weapons in order to protect your rings, and promotes more aggressive play by all players by allowing them to immediately counter attack if struck, and by removing the fear of being hit when possessing weapons. I see it as a way to make Ringslinger gametypes much healthier. Rings are both ammunition and health, and you shouldn't lose everything for getting hit once.

Read the rest of my comment, then. It would not make sense if the only two ways to lose special weapons were by dying and a Recycler Monitor being used.
And it would neither make sense to get hit, lose a shield, get hit, lose all Rings, then get hit again, and survive because one has special weapons. At least not in a Sonic game, fan-game or not.
Edit: If you have other suggestions for when to lose special weapons, though, then I'm listening... reading.

 

[Fred]

Maybe making it so you only lose either ammo or the weapon panel when hurt, and only lose the other one on death. Getting hit would be just as punishing immediately, but it would make it easier to recover, and it doesn't violate any rules of when rings should be spilled or not.

 

[fickleheart]

Edit: If you have other suggestions for when to lose special weapons, though, then I'm listening... reading.

His original suggestion was to spill weapons before rings. It was someone else who said they thought rings should come before weapons.

Here's a thought: everyone spawning with a small cache of rings (20-50?) and one random weapon panel with three pickups' worth of ammo attached to it. You could adjust those numbers based on the player's ranking when they spawn; increasing the ring/ammo count spawned with the farther back in the rankings they are, and only giving the "stronger" weapons to players lagging behind. Maybe give nothing to first place? It's not really balance-related, but would make it easier for players spawning in to jump in and start attacking.

(Maybe always give the pity shield to players on spawn, regardless of what other conditions are fulfilled? That way even people who get basically spawncamped still have a chance to fight back.)

 

[Monster Iestyn]

Relatively unimportant suggestion, but what if players couldn't pick up weapon ammo if they already had the maximum for that weapon? Even if that IS rare so I hear, it'd be cool to stop top tier players preventing lower tier players from getting a chance to collect anything.