Boss Talk

[Othius]

This was originally going to be part of a larger post on MascaraSnake's "rate the levels" thread, until I realized that I don't have anything really interesting or meaningful to say about the stages and would mostly be echoing other people's sentiments, other than a select few things (CEZ1 could use even more atmosphere than it has already, old ERZ holds up surprisingly well with ERZ2 continuing to be one of my favorite stages in the game, THZ is a boring zone, Frozen Hillside isn't a good level should not have been added to the game, Final Demo Zone not being included as an unlockable is a sin) that I might elaborate more on if you guys really want me to submit the aforementioned post.

Something I do have strong opinions on, that I believe warrants it's own thread, are the bosses of the game.

Remember, my opinions aren't subjective, and my experience is most likely wildly different than yours. The reason I'm writing such big sections on some of these bosses is because I care about this game, and wish the best for it.



Egg Mobile - Good!

I like the Egg Mobile's new strafe, it helps absolutely obliterating him at first, but it's still possible to stunlock him as Sonic. My first 2.2. playthrough I never got to see his spicy new pinch phase because I kept jumping into him before he could attack.
I think it's a good boss, though. For a first boss, it's fine that it's easy, and I like that it has a bit of challenge now for new players.


Egg Slimer - Needs Attention!

The Egg Slimer is the worst boss in the game. Now, this might seem blasphemous but, I have my reasoning. It made sense back in 2.0 when the slime did damage. The rest of the zone prepared you for his attacks, but now it just feels completely out of place. This boss needs to be entirely remade. It's not fun. His pinch phase ends up being easier than his main phase, and the boss hasn't gone through any major changes whatsoever since it's introduction in 2003 except for two things (his pinch phase starts earlier and there are walls so you don't fly off into a pit). The behavior, however, remains the same. This is an issue because toxic slime never shows up in techno hill anymore! Having a boss that tests the mechanics you've learned throughout the zone would make for a far more fun, interesting boss. Like the Egg Mobile tests the new mobility you've learned throughout Greenflower, and the Egg Colosseum tests your ability to avoid spikeballs and brambles that you've learned throughout Greenflower, the Egg Slimer should test your abilities with the buoyant slime and electricity pads. The reason I didn't include the deep sea boss here is because I have my own gripes with that boss as well. There's a flaw in my argument, I'll admit, because I don't know what I would replace this boss with. I just feel that it needs replaced.


Sea Egg - Bad

This is, ironically, the easiest boss in the game. This should not be the case. The Sea Egg went from being a tedious game of Whack-A-Mole with an annoying pinch phase that didn't tell newcomers what they're supposed to do, and an identical tedious game of Whack-A-Mole for experienced players, to a complete pushover. This boss needs a bit of (FAIR) difficulty injected into it, and I have some ideas as well. My own take on the Sea Egg.
1. The arena will be larger, so that you can see when the Sea Egg pops out at all times.
2. The arena will be entirely underwater. No bubbles. This might sound cheap and unfair, but you'll see where I'm getting at in a bit.
3. The Sea Egg's missiles will produced bubbles. This will be your source of air.
4. The Sea Egg's electricity will have various patterns. It could be a sphere radiating from it with a grid that you need to jump through. Or it could be a circle on the ground with different patterns you need to platform through. It's electricity attacks will vary.
5. The Missiles will shoot after the Sea Egg is finished with it's electricity attack, and it will immediately hide. This will give you two options, wait through the electricity attack and get air, or avoid the electricity and hit the Sea Egg.
6. The balloon Sea Eggs will shoot electricity, but they will not shoot missiles, however it will be easier to recognize them, because their sprites will move back and forth, like a balloon. This will make it so that the pinch phase requires you to avoid attacks, but not have trouble searching for the balloons.

The final boss of the SpongeBob SquarePants Movie Game I'm sure was an inspiration for this boss, and has an example of how I would have the latter option be handled. I can't find a gif of this so you should search the boss online to see how his attack patterns work.

Now Kwiin (pronounced Queen), you may ask! Isn't this too much to ask of the devs? Think about how difficult this would be to implement! This can't just do it in a day. This takes time and skill! Do you even know if this is possible in the DooM Legacy engine?

You're right! I know how long this would take to implement. Programming for this game is difficult. And I probably don't have any right to make suggestions like this. I sure as hell wouldn't be able to implement this myself, at this moment, with my current level of programming skill. I'm sure my ideas won't make it into the game. I'm sure they would be worse in practice than they are on paper. But, you know, it's something, and it's more damn interesting then the current boss is. The devs have all the time in the world to push out the next update, and you can already see the wonders they have done already with five years hard at work.


Egg Colosseum - Fantastic

This is my favorite boss in the game. For reasons I've stated in my THZ3 section. Surprising for some, I'd assume. This boss takes the mechanics you learn throughout Castle Eggman zone and puts them to the test creating a fun and satisfying boss. My only criticism is that there could be more Egg Robo's in the stands, because they're too easy to avoid at the moment and don't take much thought. Other than that, good on you, devs!


Fang - Great!
This was an unexpected, but very enjoyable boss fight. My only gripes are that he's too predictable, and if you know what you're doing, turns into, virtually, Metal Sonic's pinch phase. Wait and move, and wait and move, and after waiting and moving enough he's open for attack, you hit him once, rinse and repeat. If the middle box was not there, you would have to move and avoid his corks, instead of standing for a few seconds. If his tail did not hurt you, it would alleviate the wait and move and allow you to be more aggressive. It would also be very satisfying to hit him in midair. Otherwise it's a fun boss. Killed me quite a few times on my first go.


Unused ERZ3 Boss - Great!

I'm a bit bummed out this didn't make it into the base game. I think it's a great boss! Feels like the Egg Colosseum with anti-gravity, and I love that! My only gripe is that there isn't enough warning to his pinch phase, and the lava will catch you off guard. If it made it into the game, however, these issues might not have made it in. We will never know, for it went unused.


Metal Sonic - Okay

Attack telegraphing and a shorter more obvious pinch phase made this boss a lot less bullshit than he was in 2.1, which in turn makes the boss rather boring. This may be because I've played this boss so many times. Actually, this may be the same reason I have issue with Egg Slimer and Sea Egg... I think the arena should be larger, and the electric fence should be removed. And there should be, maybe an arrow on screen? To show where metal is during his pinch, because moving the camera to follow him is disorienting, and outright impossible on controller\all keyboard where camera turning is too slow. Otherwise, it's a good boss. It's difficult enough for the endgame, and with some improvements could be a great boss.


Brak Eggman - Bullshit

The devs know this already. This boss is going to be remade. I don't need to beat the dead horse here. This boss has some major bullshit, but here's the kicker. If you really know the boss well, it becomes one of the easiest in the game! I didn't lose a single ring on this boss my first run until after he died. There really is no worth in critiquing this boss anymore because the devs know it's bullshit already. I'm excited to see what the final boss shaped up to be in a few years.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I hope the team takes some of my criticism into consideration. I'm trying to help out the game, although it seems like I come off as a bit cynical on my opinions on some of these bosses. This game has shaped up to be one of my favorite platformers of all time. And for a fangame that really is impressive as hell. I love this game to bits, and really thank STjr for putting this all together.


(Lol this thread became so long I ended up constantly saving my additions into notepad in fear it would be lost)

 

[time gear]

I'll give my thoughts in regards to each individual boss:

Egg Mobile:
Overall, I love what they have done here. I do kinda miss the spiked balls phase though, it was a neat little reference to the old CEZ3 boss. Perhaps they could make it so his first phase is a crawla-like tank that shoots slowly moving spiked balls at the player, and the pinch mode has the tank get destroyed, with the twist of Eggman fighting back from the Egg Mobile using the lasers as a last ditch resort. His failure in this instance would explain nicely to the player why he doesn't try this again in later boss fights.

Egg Slimer:
I agree this boss is quite outdated. The slime hurting the player is no longer consistent with what the players experience within the level.

One potential idea would be to have Eggman's boss mech locked to a pole in the middle of a circle shaped arena. The entire arena has slime in it, which Sonic and friends can stand on top of but that extends down a certain distance. The player can stand on certain platforms which will rise up during this phase. The player can then jump down and hit the boss hiding underslime. To attack, the boss comes up to the surface while shielded from damage and smashes down on the slime, causing it to ripple. The player has to jump over the ripple to avoid being carried into an electric fence lining the wall of the area. This is done by standing on the platforms, which won't rise during this attack but do allow the player to jump high enough to avoid being carried by the slime.

For the pinch phase, Eggman starts smashing down on the slime more than once, causing the player to need to time several jumps in a row to avoid the waves of slime.

This would overall be a fairly easy boss that is reminiscent of the gameplay throughout the zone.

Sea Egg:
I agree with the idea of having the fight take place underwater, but not perpetually. The beginning of the fight would be like it is now, with the circle of electricity coming out from where Eggman pops up followed by missiles.

For the pinch phase, parts of the arena would collapse causing it to become more reminiscent of how it was in previous versions. Eggman would go down into the center of arena underwater and let loose an electric orb which cannot extend out of the water. The player must get back to the surface quickly so they can outrun the ever growing orb and get to a spot they can jump over it in circle form to avoid damage, then quickly go back down into the water to land a hit before he lets loose another shock. The balloons would be at the surface in random spots, firing missiles at the player which must be dodged. The balloons would change position with every hit to the boss while in this pinch phase.

Egg Colosseum:
The only thing I would really change here in the first phase is make it so that the hitbox for hitting Eggman is the size of the opening where the cage he is in moves up, so that the player doesn't have a chance of accidentally getting crushed when the cage comes back down.

For the pinch phase, I would make Eggman a little less vulnerable. Instead of increasing the number of Egg Robos, perhaps increase the range from which they persue the player so that they are more likely to actually be a problem.

Fang:
I actually quite like this fight the way it is. You actually can hit him in the air in the current version, you only get hit by his tail if he's higher than you.

I do agree that the box in the middle makes it a bit too easy though, perhaps have the box lower itself down into the ground after he jumps off it or gets hit off it at the beginning.

Unused ERZ3 Boss:
I don't really have much of a proper opinion on this since I haven't played it much. My initial impression is that the projectiles he shoots are a bit annoying though. I would probably enjoy it more if the lava and the laser shields around him where the only way for him to damage you, so the player would always be at fault for taking damage but it would still be a fair challenge based on timing and skill.

Metal Sonic:
I gave my thoughts already in the thread dedicated to this, so I will refer to that for this section.

Brak Eggman:
I actually don't hate the boss as it is now, my only real complaint is the walking AI they ripped from vanilla DOOM that is so difficult to lure into the lava/acid properly. I am happy to hear it's getting entirely reworked though, I'm excited to see just how much potential they can tap into for this.

 

[JackelZXA]

GFZ boss is cool but took me a few playthroughs to realize pinch mode had a tactic to dodge his attacks. (Wait for his three attacks then hit him) having a tell that the pinch mode isnt a laser spam if you try to rush him would probably feel good as a first boss. Maybe on the second and third shots from his volleys one laser is removed each and instead spurts smoke. So you get 3 beams, 2 beams, 1 beam for each volley. That way if you try to rush him and get hit you’ll notice one of the lasers is missing from his second shot and then a second is missing from his third shot while you're grabbing rings so new players will be able to internalize the dodge 3 shots tactic quicker?

Thz boss is fine but his hitbox when he’s spinning always seems like it’s a little smaller than you’d expect for some reason. I like the boss and always have, but maybe having some drones or barrels or cracks in the wall/ceiling in the level prior that leak the blue toxic goo could help the player identify that the blue goo is the bad goo?

Deep sea boss i enjoy despite being easy. Sonic bosses arent actually all that difficult in the genesis games after you learn what they can do, and learning that the boss fires missiles, radiates lightning, and the balloons also fire missiles seem like enough to demand of the player to learn, personally. The old boss was miserable in every way and the new boss is fun and teaches you how important camera rotation and precision are. You gotta find the boss and not attack his balloons. Dodging his missiles would have been a good tutorial for erz boss if he was still in the game.

Cez boss is kind of great as is. The egg robos being a minor hazard feels fine. The first phase is time consuming (in a fun way) and having to worry more about getting attacked in the pinch phase than we already do would just make this boss frustrating and not fun. It’s annoying but understandable in a funny way that you cant attack the robos because of their foam fingers but adding more of them would just make wading through the stands more annoying because you’d have to focus too much on not getting hit while getting to a good vantage to hit eggman, whereas now the numbers seem well enough that you dont have to constantly worry about them but you just have to be mindful as you run to a nee spot, which is fine for a sonic boss.

Fang’s great. Nothing more i can say. Wish you could use his bombs when you play as him, though.

Erz3 boss is really fun and its a shame he didnt get polished up and finished. I use camera flip with gravity so it might effect me liking the boss so much? I dont like the inverted normal gravity feel from 2.1 and i think the camera flip keeps alot of the mechanical elements of gravity flipping while keeping things more on the fun side...The missiles (the real ones, not the bullet hell swoop) are fun to dodge and build on what you learned in dsz3, the lava is really fun to react to but i think it could use a grate on the second or third staircase below him so recovering from hitting the force field was a little less frustrating, letting you grab your rings a little more easily while still having to jump up one or two steps to escape before the lava catches you. The force field feels like it could use a little visual polish instead of being the yellow block look (erz in general needs a revamp pass) or maybe a slight modification of its hitbox? (Maybe it shrinks and grows during the fight or between hits?) eggman seems like he would have had some more graphics work done, as his hitbox doesnt line up with his visual when you’re flipped, so you end up attacking the space above his head for damage when flipped) i really like the zone transition after the fight though. Good ominous final zone boss gauntlet anticipation. Re-implementing this boss would be great since i think after black core gets revamps the gauntlet will feel more fun than anything. (Sonic 2 had a similar 3 boss rush of eggman boss, sonic robot boss, death egg robo boss. Theres gauntlets in a few spots in sonic 3 & knuckles, so it doesn’t really feel like something that’d be out of place in srb2 if the latter two bosses get adjusted. This one being easy and fun is a good way to kick off the gauntlet, i would think. He resembles the types of simpler gimmicky fights that preluded the gauntlets of 2, 3, &k’s endgame gauntlets. I think they could go one further by having a nights mode extra boss zone if you have the emeralds and are playing as sonic or metal in singleplayer)

Metal sonic race is fine, metal sonic isn’t. His tracking is too finnicky, especially because an enemy using similar tracking in the game, the bee drill from agz, has a correction behavior to fix a too wild rotation around the player, something metal could use, having him land alternatively to doing his energy balls to do a single charge at you that results in him being in an easier position to damage could be fun and would teach the pinch mode attack dodging mechanics in a less overwhelming situation. His energy balls dont have a great telegraph for the pattern, they move too fast, and their hitbox feels too big. Because the arena is designed for the pinch mode, dodging his balls feels completely frustrating and something i try to avoid dealing with by abusing his hits (hit him 3 times at the start of the phase, dodge one line ball, hit him 2 more times, deal with pinch phase) i basically try to avoid dealing with the actual fight because of how bad his balls attack feels, especially with the arena. Having invisible walls could help? (Or a new arena where phase 1 its designed around dodging his balls in a wider space and in phase 2 it becomes the wrestling ring design for his bounding?) i like the pinch phase alright enough but i always sit in a corner so i can see him easily, be out of range of most bounding angles, and easily see/hear his charges (the sound feels like the fade is too strong on distance considering it’s a little arena, though) the post transition sequence is great atmosphere, though! (But again, i only am able to enjoy the boss by cheesing him to avoid most of his first phase and exploiting most of his second phase so i dont have to actually worry about tracking him)

Bcz3 boss isn’t really so bad but he feels janky with his cyberdemon steps. Theres something to it adding an imposing feeling to the fight but it feels a little bad when you miss him because he took a step. Getting him to walk into the acid is frustrating thoufh. The rockets he fires feel like the first one is too hard to predict and can lead to some cheap hits or death, the fires fine, bombs are alrighr, the lock on attack is okay but kinda feels bad sometimes to get to a safe spot fir some reason? (Maybe a shrinking reticle so you have a visual indicator would help players internalize such a heavy attack’s timing?) the walls coming down and bombs dropping is a good pinch phase. I feel like maybe one thing that wouldnt hurt and would feel cool would be if all 3 slime chutes start dropping while he’s in pinch phase?

The bosses are a neat set so far though for the current zone roster. Erz3 boss really makes it feel more complete and adds so much. It also means you get an eggman fight between fang and metal, instead of having two character fights next to eachother. I would really hope the boss works his way back in on a future update because he’s alot of fun to fight and completes the endgame experience in a way the classic games did. The biggest gripe is the janky difficulty of metal sonic. Genesis Sonic bosses were never constantly difficult. They’re hard until you learn their pattern then you try to beat them as efficiently as possible. Thats what makes them fun on replays and it’s a positive direction these bosses took from earlier versions. Difficulty and the enjoyment of mastery being balanced are key to classic sonic games being hard but not too hard. That’s how they were and the closer srb2 has gotten to that the better! (Think about how not difficult but fun the aquatic ruins boss in sonic 2 was when criticizing dsz boss’s easiness. It still serves a teaching purpose and is fun to try to become more efficient on replays)

 

[Frisktaker]

I think they could go one further by having a nights mode extra boss zone if you have the emeralds and are playing as sonic or metal in singleplayer

If they added such a boss, I would have to strongly recommend against limiting it to Metal and Sonic. That is one thing I hate in S3&K and Mania. Heck, Mania doesn't even have the "Knuckles has his own story and his own final boss" and "Tails can only transform with Super Emeralds(even then Tails can't do Doomsday even with the Super Emeralds)" excuses. Everyone goes through the same levels, afterall.

As for everything else, I love the early bosses, but Metal Sonic and Brak need work. Reducing the length of Metal's pinch and fixing Brak's walk should do. Fang is hands down the best, at least in terms of character.

 

[Chromatian]

fang - great!

You can hit Fang while he's bouncing and in the air. The safest strategy is to do as you said, wait for him to stop moving, then attack him when he lands. However, if you want to be fast and fluid, you'll need to interrupt his jumping with your own. This is where this boss shines as the best in the entire roster, and where I feel your opinion falls short.

Bosses in Sonic work best when the player uses their own agency to force the boss to end faster, landing a bunch of hits as quickly as possible. Fang's tail makes this the core challenge of the fight, but does not punish a player who plays it safe with death, only a slower pace. The optimal (fastest) way to deal with Fang is to put yourself in the most danger.

This all lines up with Sonic's core gameplay: High skill plays reward speed, fluidity, style, but present more danger, and low skill plays are safe, slower paced, but a bit clunky. To add to this, Amy's hammer swings don't have a hurt box connected to them, making her the optimal choice for flying through this fight at high speed.

 

[JackelZXA]

If they added such a boss, I would have to strongly recommend against limiting it to Metal and Sonic. That is one thing I hate in S3&K and Mania. Heck, Mania doesn't even have the "Knuckles has his own story and his own final boss" and "Tails can only transform with Super Emeralds(even then Tails can't do Doomsday even with the Super Emeralds)" excuses. Everyone goes through the same levels, afterall.

I'm fine with sonic getting his own special boss since he is the star. I don't really think the nights special stage suits Fang or Amy outside of the special stage itself. Part of what's fun about them is how they're almost not even a Sonic character in their gameplay. The thing about Doomsday is that it wasn't necessarily difficult once you know how it works, it's more like a victory lap. As long as Black Core has a satisfying last boss, then spinning Sonic out into his own special special boss (Since he's the most difficult of the normal characters) seems like it'd work. I kind of think it was too much for Mania to just give everyone Super mode. I kind of like that being Sonic's thing (even though knuckles could do it in s&k) Metal Sonic also getting the boss I'd be okay with I guess because he's kind of special, too. I don't really think it works for tails or knuckles to do the egg reverie boss or doomsday. (Knuckles less so than tails)

Bosses in Sonic work best when the player uses their own agency to force the boss to end faster, landing a bunch of hits as quickly as possible. Fang's tail makes this the core challenge of the fight, but does not punish a player who plays it safe with death, only a slower pace. The optimal (fastest) way to deal with Fang is to put yourself in the most danger.

Yeah. That's why Metal Sonic is weird because his first phase is just downright bad, his second phase is sloppy, but when you know how to land the first five hits as quickly as you can it's actually alot of fun. His spin away gimmick is really cool and feels good as a core mechanic. Predicting his angle based on his direction when he's hit is also a fun expert level aspect of the fight. The problems are the arena (The pit here is terrible whereas brak is actually a good use of it's pit in pinch mode, and the square shape feels better in pinch mode than it does when trying to dodge the balls), the energy balls being really shitty to evade and predict (even when you know the tell), and the bad tracking (other flying enemies have better, similar tracking). The pinch mode could be left alone if the other half of the fight were touched up. The race is cool but tweaking it so you could do stuff that causes metal sonic to change routes would really add to the variability of it. The track is alright but could be better.



Metal Race and his Fight are solid ideas. The whole gauntlet (if you have ERZ3 mod installed) echoes the sort of feeling you got from the ends of 2, 3, and Knuckles. It feels much more exciting. (Especially with how the ERZ3 fight's post boss transition perfectly brings you to the Metal Sonic Race which leads you back to the big fight with Eggman which ends with the capsule ride back to the planet. The whole sequence just feels very dynamic and I hope that ERZ3 fight makes its way back into the official game because it really makes it feel like a good finale.

 

[Sryder]

GFZ boss is as good as I could ever want it, now that the lasers don't turn towards you and the pinch phase is changed.
THZ boss is the same as ever, I don't think it's awful to play though.
DSZ boss is far better than it was previously and isn't awfully boring anymore at least, it does still have the wait for Eggman to attack first problem.
CEZ boss is my least favourite in the game still. The pinch phase is not bad, but the initial phase is the same wait for eggman to expose himself, except you need to press very obvious buttons first. There's no way to go faster in hitting those buttons than the game lets you either.
Fang is probably the best boss in the game since you can hit him while he's in the air. Hitting him like that during the pinch phase I feel is either a little too difficult, or a little too punishing when you fail though. It also needs wacky issues like this to be fixed:

The Metal Sonic race needs changing, but I imagine that this is still to an extent limited by sonic having thok, and there being no way to gain a lot of speed otherwise. Meaning characters other than him need ways to skip over most of the level.
The Metal Sonic boss fight isn't bad now that the pinch phase has been shortened (at least it felt like it to me)
I actually very much like Brak Eggman despite him being almost a Cyber Demon. You have the opportunity to go ham at him, but need to be wary of his attacks still as he gets to lower health.

 

[Eliwood]

I dislike how Techno Hill Zone has tiny easy to miss projectiles getting spewed out from atop the boss itself. I don't think it's very fun, and I think I agree with an earlier post that having the mechanics from the earlier level be how you interact with him would be great. Though I partially worry about it slowing the boss down because of how sloooowww the goop is. If the goop stayed the same speed going through it, a good compromise would be to lower the hit count.


Also the boss itself isn't terribly involved which I don't like.


Okay so here's another thing. Fang's boss fight. It's mostly fine but I personally have one major issue with the fight that I hardly see anyone bring up. Why does running into the bombs Pre-Explosion send you flying as if the bomb had exploded? I think it makes trying to knock Fang out before he is "vulnerable" is made more obnoxious. Either make the bomb explode upon hitting it to make it more visually clear, or to be honest, just make it do regular knockback. It feels confusing to have it do extreme knockback and kill you even though the bomb didn't even explode. It does not make sense and every time it happens I feel as though I was cheated a death.


Metal Sonic is a better fight since it's not as long, but I still hate Egg Brak. It's just a boring waiting game. Even if you can two cycle him, there's just far too much waiting. I think it would be nice if the process of making him become vulnerable was more involved. But it's not. Also I hate that he has no tells when he is about to fire his regular attacks. This is very frustrating when you're being forced to wait around for him to run into the hurt water as he does everything EXCEPT go into the slime water.


Other than that, I like most of the bosses. Though I think Fang can feel like a major spike in difficulty and in some respects I think he's harder than some of the later bosses in a bad way. Like at least with Metal Sonic he doesn't have an attack that literally yeets you off the arena.

 

[Frisktaker]

I'm fine with sonic getting his own special boss since he is the star. Metal Sonic also getting the boss I'd be okay with I guess because he's kind of special, too.

Oh, I could not disagree more. I would be livid if that happened, and that second sentence even more highlights the ridiculousness. "Oh, Sonic is the star. Metal can have it too, because he's special or something." To me, it's either all characters get it, or it shouldn't exist at all. Period.

Besides, how would that even work with the Level Select?

 

[time gear]

Oh, I could not disagree more. I would be livid if that happened, and that second sentence even more highlights the ridiculousness. "Oh, Sonic is the star. Metal can have it too, because he's special or something." To me, it's either all characters get it, or it shouldn't exist at all. Period.

Besides, how would that even work with the Level Select?

They could simply set it so that if the player is Sonic and has all emeralds when they clear the final boss, the next stage is set to the Super Sonic boss instead of it playing the credits. Then, after beating the Super Sonic boss, the stage for it unlocks on the list of bonus levels for you to play as any character.

This could be useful in two ways. Sonic would be the only one that could get to the boss via the main campaign, but then if the player wants to play it as someone else after beating it as Sonic it would be treated the same way as say, Pipe Towers or Techno Legacy. Therefore, the other characters being in that boss fight wouldn't be "canon" and it would be a thing just for Sonic in the main campaign, but the other characters wouldn't be locked out from it entirely.

 

[V1ral]

Bit late on the THZ boss, but Slimer is kind of jank just for his hitbox being kinda jank. I swear you'll just go straight through him sometimes, especially with Thoks.

Someone mentioned changing him to use the stage gimmicks, and that'd be neat. Maybe have it as an actual Eggman mechanic - stuff looks bouncy, maybe have it be like a psuedo Bubble Shield you have to break through, and the blue chems could be like bounce pools? Perhaps if you can't momentum into him, you'll be forced outwards into electrical flooring?

 

[JackelZXA]

Oh, I could not disagree more. I would be livid if that happened, and that second sentence even more highlights the ridiculousness. "Oh, Sonic is the star. Metal can have it too, because he's special or something." To me, it's either all characters get it, or it shouldn't exist at all. Period.

Besides, how would that even work with the Level Select?

I don't see how keeping a super sonic boss to just super sonic is a bad thing? It's tradition in alot of sonic games, classic and modern, and he's the special one with the hard canonical form with a unique design in all the games. Other characters just kinda flash but Sonic gets a special transformation. It always made sense to me that he gets the really flashy finish since Sonic's always the main playthrough and the other characters are usually alternates. (Knuckles in S&K aside) and I'd really like to see a nights boss in the srb2 engine (You wouldn't have grabbing and throwing but the rest of it's there). I don't see any real reason to make them all equivalent characters in that regard. Super Sonic is sort of what those special stages were built around and the others were added later in kind of a slightly sillier manner for the most part.

Metal Sonic's basically Reala so I don't see a problem there.

 

[JEV3]

Metal Sonic's basically Reala so I don't see a problem there.

Aaand now I want a NiGHTS mode boss against Metal Sonic. Even though NiGHTS mode doesn't really lend itself to bosses, I just want it for the novelty.

 

[SSNTails]

Aaand now I want a NiGHTS mode boss against Metal Sonic. Even though NiGHTS mode doesn't really lend itself to bosses, I just want it for the novelty.

The Reala fight in the original NiGHTS was just rotating on a single axis point. I don't see why it couldn't be done.

 

[Aegix]

Greenflower boss: Good boss!



I was VERY pleasantly surprised to see his new mechanics. Way to go, you taught me how important strafing is! Good boss!


Techno Hill Boss: It's alright.



It's a classic. While it kiiinda shows it's age, I'm fine with that. It's only the second boss, and the Pogo-Stick jousting pinch phase is hilarious.



Deep Sea Zone: Something's missing...


I am SO glad it's not the intensely annoying boss it used to be, and I'm glad the arena didn't flood during the pinch phase. But even so, it feels like it needs a little extra something to make it really shine.


Maybe in the pinch phase, water goes up whenever Eggman comes up, then lowers when he goes down, or is hit?


Castle Eggman: Pleasantly painful.


This guy is hard. REAL hard. I was totally unsure what to do in his pinch phase the first time.


But he's improved. Making the first phase all about ever-increasingly hard button presses was good.



Pinch phase is either frustrating, or too easy if you find a safe spot and wait for him to come around. Use those egg robos with extreme care. Too few and positioning is too simple. Too many and it's unplayably frustrating.


I am not sure how to take this boss from Good to Great, honestly...



Arid Canyon Zone: Very Good.


If someone hadn't randomly just plopped a spoiler that I'd read, this boss would have been a MASSIVE shock to me (as well as the unlock). Sadly, I was spoiled.


Even so, it was a very welcome surprise and a neat shakeup.


Initial fight is great. It's tricky to keep him in sight as he bounces around so you can find when to hit him, but the crate in the center provides very convenient cover.


His pinch phase bouncing takes a little too long for how short he's vulnerable, though. Maybe tone that down a teeny bit?

Also, I have to say, visually, you guys knocked it out of the park. The transition to Pinch phase is brilliant and I love it, same thing with the hilarious ending to the fight. A+ there.



Red Volcano Zone: ____


I'm really looking forward to seeing what gets cooked up for this. The lava offers a load of possibilities. :P


Metal Sonic Race: It's ok.



I've never really liked this level. Like...I love the CONCEPT, but honestly, I feel like something is just...WRONG with it and I don't know what.


I don't know what you guys did this time, though, but it's bearable now. Not amazing, but I didn't outright hate it this time (although it WAS quite irritating that the time I beat it with a certain bouncy boi was the time when I gave up on his bouncy ability entirely)


The Ending timer feels aaallllmost perfect, though. I always hit the finish line with either 1 second left, or amazed I didn't time out because that one last second seemed to last for 2. Props on that.


Metal Sonic battle: He's...Actually fun now! Missing something, but still fun!

Another boss I've always hated...But oh my stars above, the developers have had a moment of clarity! They've realized how essential Clarity is!


The new visual cues for Metal's blaster attack makes him WAY less annoying all on their own and I love them! The Pinball noises as he bounces makes me INSTANTLY understand what his Pinch phase is going! These are excellent upgrades!


That said, I still hate that not only can you get damaged by the electric fence, but it's so EASY to skate over the edge, meaning that you're never going to really use any of your nifty abilities for fear of having too much recoil and dying, making the fight feel the same for each character.


Also, while I DO appreciate how the entire fight is about tricking Metal's AI into being where you want him to be, via clever strafing, it REALLY doesn't feel like the kind of battle that "belongs" with the others. It's not about mobility or dodging, you just need to slow him down, strafe into his path until he's lined up, go. It's functional, it's a neat idea...It just....feels like it doesn't quite fit...


I'm fine with him staying as is. He's a great penultimate boss now, even if the strategy feels kind of like it doesn't "belong"


Also, THANK YOU for making this a separate level so I don't have to redo the darn race every time.


Brakk Eggman: Really shows it's age.


On one hand, it's a REALLY neat idea.


On the other hand, the way he walks make lining him up into the acid kind of unreliable.


I DO like his many attacks...But I don't like how in the pinch phase getting hit with almost anything means you will instantly die.


Hilariously, I had the easiest time with Sonic. I just attacked as fast as humanly possible and somehow I managed to get through it without him ever using a single Tier 2 attack, which made the fight much easier. It felt really weird, TBH.


I'll be glad to see him re-done, or replaced, although, like Egg Rock Zone itself, I DO hope it stays in the game as an unlockable secret after it's been replaced.