Boss Discussion (2.1 vs 2.2, or just thoughts in general)

[Pyrakid Wolfo]

I started this thread because I wanted to talk about how hard some of the 2.1 bosses are without thok. I like the deep sea boss, and I hate the castle eggman one, but not "because it's on a timer". People sayin "oh we cant have 2.2 castle eggman with a timer because that's 2.1"
No...
2.1 castle eggman boss had spike balls that speed up and slow down so randomly you can't tell when to stop or jump or whatever. And that last part is also not very good but whatev.
I don't like pressing switches, I just think it's too much movement, but i mean maybe its "cool" to other srb2 fans.

 

[Flowey98]

Here are my opinions on the bosses of 2.1 to 2.2:
GFZ3/Egg Mobile: I like the new pinch phase where he fires 3 lasers at once, and the new laser effects. I am honestly fine with his 2.1 pinch phase, he spawns 4 spike balls, he charges at you, and then you have to time your jump so you don't end up hitting a spike ball.
THZ3/Egg Slimer: I honestly don't find any differences from 2.1 to 2.2 aside from the graphical changes so I think I'll skip this one.
DSZ3/Sea Egg: This one changed a lot! Back in 2.1, you just had to try to hit him when he pops up and he starts shooting missiles at you while you also have to avoid going in the water or else he'll zap you until you die or get out. 2.2 is kind of the same except he spawns a ring of electricity when he pops up and there is no water to avoid, probably to make it easier to notice which one is the real one in his pinch phase.
CEZ3/Egg Coliseum: In 2.1, he is basically a waiting game like the THZ3 and DSZ3 bosses from the TGF version, until you get to his pinch phase where he breaks the cage and you got to try and hit him from above. I loved how he was changed in 2.2, where he is no longer a waiting game and you have to hit the buttons to strike him, or if you are Modern Sonic, you can be risky and stomp the top of his cage and strike him that way. His pinch phase is kind of the same except he revolves around the arena, and you have to avoid making contact with an Egg Robo.
ACZ3/Fang: I never expected him to make it into the game, nobody did. Anyways, he just bounces a few times and he attacks you with either his pop gun, or a bomb.
BCZ2/Metal(Tinfoil) Sonic: Same as 2.1 except his race and boss fight are separate levels. I also noticed that he is a little slower in his race in 2.2 than in 2.1, more noticeably in the section with the lasers that move up and down before the parkour with the lava.
BCZ3/Black(or Brak, whichever you prefer.) Eggman: Same as 2.1, but with the arena redesign, the lava replaced with acid, the new sprite render, and the escape pod when you defeat him.

 

[GrayAngel]

Overall, I just love the changes to the bosses. In 2.1, too much of it felt up to chance. When there are emblems tied to your performance, that can be very frustrating. For instance, with Green Flower's boss, after Eggman spawns those spike balls around himself, it was basically like a coin toss determined whether attacking him dealt damage to him or you. The current bosses, with the exception of Metal, Brak, and to a lesser extent, Fang, can be totally obliterated once you understand their patterns. I think that's the way it should be.

Brak still sucks, though. lol. I remember back when he was stationary, and you were supposed to jump on his head and then move before he slaps himself like in the OVA.

 

[cookiefonster]

The bosses in SRB2 are alright for the most part. They're by no means big highlights of the game (except maybe Fang for novelty alone), but they do what they need to in the same vein as the classic games, except in 3D.

I do like that the bosses are designed to keep you on your feet whether you're a new or experienced player, so that you can't bludgeon them to death effortlessly (except arguably Techno Hill's boss). I won't deny that they can somewhat feel like pacebreakers, though.

As for the bosses themselves, since this thread was specifically about comparing 2.1 to 2.2, I suppose I'll go through each one.

Greenflower - Triple lasers are a both much bigger challenge and a more natural follow up to single lasers than the spike balls were in 2.1. The new visual design of the boss's attacks is also good, but I find the jump in difficulty between the initial phase and the pinch phase a bit high.

Techno Hill - Exact same as 2.1 except visuals. A creative but simple boss that has stood the test of time well.

Deep Sea - This one was made ENORMOUSLY easier in 2.2 than 2.1. It's absolutely a good thing that the old tedious boss (which got me stuck in the few days I first played 2.1 before 2.2 came out) was simplified and made much more fast-paced, but defeating the boss now kind of makes me go "wait, that's it?" because it feels so short. A fun boss regardless.

Castle Eggman - Probably the most interestingly designed boss of all, especially compared to 2.1. Excellent use of the zone's prevalent hazards, and pressing buttons to open the cage is a brilliant concept that puts the fight in the player's hands, much unlike the 2.1 version which was basically a waiting game. The current pinch phase can get rather tedious because 2.2 made it more of a waiting game than before, but it's still a very engaging boss.

Arid Canyon - Didn't exist before 2.1 (the boss, that is). Not much of a point in talking about that.

Metal Sonic - Obnoxiously hard. Need I say more? At least 2.2's version of the boss does a good job telegraphing his attacks.

Brak Eggman - The only real change from 2.1 to 2.2 was keeping the barrels always raised, which I like because it makes for a cool way to dodge his attacks. Brak's walk cycles are still very weird and janky and it can be annoying to fail to lure him into the green slime.

 

[TehPuertoRicanSpartan]

Since Fang was the hardest boss for me to complete playing as Sonic & Tails, I decided to go with the 100% save file.
And it sucks that there's no Egg Rock boss... luckily, it's available as an add-on.

 

[Pyrakid Wolfo]

Here are my opinions on the bosses of 2.1 to 2.2:
GFZ3/Egg Mobile: I like the new pinch phase where he fires 3 lasers at once, and the new laser effects. I am honestly fine with his 2.1 pinch phase, he spawns 4 spike balls, he charges at you, and then you have to time your jump so you don't end up hitting a spike ball.

I just hold Spindash for the GFZ boss pinch phase in srb2 2.1

 

[clairebun]

Generally I've felt that 2.2 made a lot of improvements to some of the bosses but that there is still work to be done.

GFZ1 - Pinch phase in 2.2 is much more appropriate. The kiting strategy is neat, but I think it happens more often than is necessary. The new standard attack seems a little aggressive, but this is only so because the laser is the first "projectile" that the player is exposed to. Better early enemy design is necessary to properly introduce this boss's attack.

THZ3 - No change here IIRC, which is fine since this boss was always pretty well designed. Pinch could use a bit of an upgrade though.

DSZ3 - Old stage had the problem of being extremely brutally punishing. New boss design lacks difficulty scaling but is overall more appropriately designed.

CEZ3 - Old stage had the problem of being really fucking boring. New stage has the problem of being excessively difficult. Difficulty scaling needs to be toned down significantly.

BCZ2 - Old version had a much more monotonous pinch phase and excessively long charging times, whereas the new version streamlines this and makes the pinch phase much faster (and also a bit more difficult as a result). The boss remains very difficult to land hits against unless you're an experienced player. Better low-end acceleration for the player may help with this.

BCZ3 - I like the fact that the barriers are always up now, even if it makes it a little easier to cheese the boss. Still doomshit.

 

[TehRealSalt]

Everything 2.2 did to the bosses is an improvement in my eyes. I just have minor nitpicks.

- Pretty much no complaints about GFZ3, except maybe that when you're a character who can go up really high and he matches your height, he takes forever to come back down. And to be fair this situation barely comes up except for custom characters :V
- THZ3's boss is well designed but feels underwhelming as a second boss now after GFZ.
- DSZ3's boss is now fun. The fakes are now so fun that I wish they appeared earlier... a complete reversal from before.
- CEZ3 is now SUPER fun, my second favorite boss in the game (next to ACZ3). Only nitpick is that the spikeballs shouldn't rotate at all while the cage is up anymore. That was fine when the boss was really boring and nothing was going on, but I feel like worrying about bouncing back into them AND making sure not to land where the floor is going to break next is a step too far.
- BCZ2 has been improved a bunch, but it's still tedious to get hits in. Playing it as Tails is actively annoying, the vectorize hit system can make the already really boring fight with lots of waiting take even longer.
- BCZ3 is better, but it's still Doom-movement Brak.

 

[time gear]

Here's my thoughts:

GFZ - Overall I find the new version to be a solid improvement. It would be nice if Eggman choreographed using the triple laser more though, it's the first boss so beginner players can be expected to be caught without warning. Something entirely new I would like to see though, is the boss starting out grounded on tank treads, and then going airborn when going into the pinch phase. Perhaps due to Sonic and friends destroying the treads.

THZ - This one feels a little outdated. I think what might freshen it up a bit is if the goo he shoots out doesn't just stick to the floor and hurt players (Especially since the goo doesn't do that in the zone itself anymore) but rather actually bounces around for a short while. Perhaps they could bounce towards the players, and if they collide with a player, they could get knocked back a little bit, incentivizing the player to plan a course of attack that goes around the bouncing balls of goo and hits Eggman.

DSZ - The new version is definitely an improvement, but I would probably agree with everyone who says it's a little too easy. Perhaps raise the water just a little bit? Not enough that there's risk of drowning, but enough to slow the player's movement speed while grounded. That should create a little bit more difficulty without any major scale redesigns for the boss.

CEZ - I think the buttons are a good idea, though I do think Eggman would at least try to make the method of exposing him to attack a little more subtle. What actually bothers me though is that Eggman doesn't defend himself more during this fight, relying entirely on the spike ball chains to attack the player. Perhaps he could have a giant sword that he slashes at the player occasionally during the first phase? Could be a timing thing where you have to jump over it or spin to avoid damage. For the second phase, perhaps the Egg Robo crowd could be just a smidgeon more aggressive?

ACZ - Fang is new so no real comparisons here. I do think it's a good boss, though.

Metal Sonic - It's been mentioned in an earlier thread but I generally agree that the electric fence could use a little bit of a revamp. Make it more solid so your rings don't fall off the arena, perhaps also change it so the playable Metal just bounces off similar to the boss Metal. The final attack could also use some trimming down a little, it's a bit of a waiting game at the moment. It would also be cool if there was a risky opportunity to attack him during those boost mode attacks if you can manage to jump on top of him.

Brak Eggman - Other than while playing as a few custom characters, I don't really like this fight. My main gripe is the invincibility that can only be broken temporarily by getting him to sluggishly walk into acid. A more reliable method of making him vulnerable would be appreciated. Perhaps also change the flamethrower to act less like a napalm gun and more like a proper flamethrower, with limited range and a random projectile spread? It would also be fun if you could jump into his big bombs while they are still airborn to knock them back into him.

 

[Pyrakid Wolfo]

CEZ3 - Old stage had the problem of being really fucking boring. New stage has the problem of being excessively difficult. Difficulty scaling needs to be toned down significantly.

...is 2.2's CEZ boss harder than 2.1's??? I can't believe this ima have to fight it again. Or you switched them around, possible because that's what I think. Though if you're just getting hit over and over again because of how RNG based the original boss is it can get boring. It just randomly speeds up and slows down and it's not fun.

 

[Mario A. Roach]

I started this thread because I wanted to talk about how hard some of the 2.1 bosses are without thok. I like the deep sea boss, and I hate the castle eggman one, but not "because it's on a timer". People sayin "oh we cant have 2.2 castle eggman with a timer because that's 2.1"
No...
2.1 castle eggman boss had spike balls that speed up and slow down so randomly you can't tell when to stop or jump or whatever. And that last part is also not very good but whatev.
I don't like pressing switches, I just think it's too much movement, but i mean maybe its "cool" to other srb2 fans.

I just jump over the Spikeballs while playing Sonic.

 

[clairebun]

...is 2.2's CEZ boss harder than 2.1's??? I can't believe this ima have to fight it again. Or you switched them around, possible because that's what I think. Though if you're just getting hit over and over again because of how RNG based the original boss is it can get boring. It just randomly speeds up and slows down and it's not fun.

There's no contest. 2.2 CEZ fight asks a lot out of the player; dodging high-speed stage-wide hazards while simultaneously jumping over pits, pushing buttons, and precision-leaping onto Eggman. Additionally the player is forced to be mindful of collapsing ground and the switch in mace momentum after hitting Eggman. New player sentiment over this boss is pretty unanimous. This isn't going into the added threat of egg robos during pinch. Even for a veteran player like myself, CEZ3 is oftentimes a run ender when playing in Ultimate mode.

This isn't to say it's worse than 2.1's fight; 2.1's fight was just hot garbage. The 2.2 fight is structurally pretty sound (at least up until the pinch phase) and is simply ramped up too far in difficulty.

 

[time gear]

There's no contest. 2.2 CEZ fight asks a lot out of the player; dodging high-speed stage-wide hazards while simultaneously jumping over pits, pushing buttons, and precision-leaping onto Eggman. Additionally the player is forced to be mindful of collapsing ground and the switch in mace momentum after hitting Eggman. New player sentiment over this boss is pretty unanimous. This isn't going into the added threat of egg robos during pinch. Even for a veteran player like myself, CEZ3 is oftentimes a run ender when playing in Ultimate mode.

This isn't to say it's worse than 2.1's fight; 2.1's fight was just hot garbage. The 2.2 fight is structurally pretty sound (at least up until the pinch phase) and is simply ramped up too far in difficulty.

Perhaps several things could be combined together to take some of the stress off the player. One idea for example: the spikeball chains could be replaced by a single giant sword that Eggman occasionally slowly swings at you, with you needing to time your jumps to avoid it. In addition, the buttons could be replaced by pillars holding up part of his contraption, with pieces falling down and hitting him when the player tricks Eggman into destroying a pillar with the sword. Doing this 5 times transitions to the pinch phase, a total of 8 hits.

This takes the burden of hitting Eggman off the player, the player doesn't have to put as much consistent focus on dodging, and the fight becomes more about tricking Eggman into hitting himself rather than about pressing the buttons he conveniently left for the player to expose him to damage. The player would still have to be careful of the crumbling floor, but not having to constantly focus on dodging the entire time would make doing that more reasonable.

 

[Snowy]

While I, personally, love the difficulty of CEZ3 in 2.2, I can understand why people think it's too difficult- personally, the only point I dislike and think should be changed is the collapsing floor. My biggest issue is that the floor breaks away before the player can react to it, with the idea seemingly being to reposition so your bounce can be used to evade the cracking ground. But the time limit to hitting the boss, coupled with the spikeballs still being a hazard, and the need to position one'self to evade the breaking ground makes it just too panic inducing. I believe a simple fix to the quaking ground to be making it wait for a few seconds longer- maybe one or two- so the player has a chance to hit the ground and start running or jumping, cutting the breaking ground out from being something to consider during the attack, and making it something to consider after the attack, giving the player a chance to react- maybe with the ground that's breaking getting a cracking effect to show it's about to shatter.

 

[Just Silus!]

GFZ = I prefer the 2.2 one, the 2.1 is easier to beat, and it's supposed to be an boss.

THZ = no change lol.

DSZ = New one is for me better.

CEZ = The buttons idea is better than waiting until eggman's shield goes up. (idk why would eggman let Sonic to press buttons to let him being vulnerable)

ACZ = doesn't have an 2.1 version, but it's good to see an boss for ACZ.

BCZ = well... what i can say? I love the race of metal sonic, it's good to see that are TWO different levels, because you can turn super in the battle, and that makes it too easy, and Brak... 2.2 version with those AWESOME new sprites is better for me.

 

[cookiefonster]

I think if the CEZ3 boss is to be made easier, it would be best done by adjusting things numerically, like maybe increasing the time window where you can hit Eggman, or making the maces more quickly slow down when his cage opens. The concept for the boss is great and makes the best possible use of Castle Eggman's hazards.

 

[Snowy]

I tried gathering some of my thoughts on this... but the only boss I actively dislike, consistently, is Techno Hill's. While the boss itself is a simple and novel concept that is... serviceable, I find it to be both a worse and easier boss than Greenflower's, but despite that I still get frustrated with it more than any other boss.

It's very simple and again- a novel concept. Boss goes around in a circle dropping slime that you have to jump over to hit them. However when I do get hit, it often feels random and not my fault- whether the player sprite/model blocked the slime glob in front of me, or I happen to bounce at an odd angle and get hit by flying into a wall and there happens to be a glob there...

And then whenever I'm NOT getting hit, I'm just sitting out of the boss' range and jumping at him when he happens to be spinning toward me, completely out of harm's way and without real risk due to the knockback of hitting the boss.

Phase 2 is at least more interesting, given how I can now predict where the boss is bouncing and where it's globs are- and to attack it I have to rush at it and jump over two rings of goop successfully.

I don't currently have any ideas for how to improve it- but I do feel it may need some improvement in some fashion.

 

[time gear]

I tried gathering some of my thoughts on this... but the only boss I actively dislike, consistently, is Techno Hill's.

I don't currently have any ideas for how to improve it- but I do feel it may need some improvement in some fashion.

I touched up on this briefly in my initial reply to this topic. I generally agree. The slime balls hurting the player is inconsistent with the change made to the zone in that the goop bounces you now, and even if it was changed to green or something, the boss would still feel rather outdated and random.

I feel like the boss should be changed to reflect the gimmick of the zone. Namely, the fact that the goop bounces. Either have the balls bounce around after Eggman launches them, or redesign the entire boss around the new goop mechanics. Perhaps making use of the idea of being able to walk on ceilings while inside goop.

 

[Snowy]

I touched up on this briefly in my initial reply to this topic. I generally agree.
I feel like the boss should be changed to reflect the gimmick of the zone. Namely, the fact that the goop bounces. Either have the balls bounce around after Eggman launches them, or redesign the entire boss around the new goop mechanics. Perhaps making use of the idea of being able to walk on ceilings while inside goop.

A quick note is that I don't mind the inconsistency, but in this scenario I understand why people would and wouldn't mind it being looked at.

Personally, I'd think it could be neat if the boss was reworked with slopes in mind, rather than JUST bouncy goop- I've briefly messed with the idea in zonebuilder before, but the rocks falling in Arid Canyon, as they should, actually bounce differently on slopes- Perhaps the boss could be reworked to be stationary and at the top of a large, curved hill-like spire.

It fires bouncing slime in the direction of the player at 3 pre-set levels, each causing a different bouncing arc toward the player- the bounce-slime could have a bomb inside of them to show how it targets the player, and how it hurts you.

Afterword, it could maybe do one of two things-
1: It takes a moment, before firing a solid stream of goop at you- just like old Brak's sticky goo, but with the current Egg Slimer's hurt-goo. This does not bounce, and is simply a trail the player must outpace and evade, with the boss occasionally stopping to fire a single bounce-goo straight at you, which trails you for a bit to stop players from just inching along the edge of the arena to limit goop spread- probably 3 bounces.
2: It could fire three rings of goo into the air, which encircles the arena- This would reference the current version of the boss, but the three rings of goop would be in pre-set locations- making them recognizable, but also still become a hazard.

For it's phase 2, the boss itself could surround itself in goo, and bounce after the player, just like it does now- but it leaves a large splatter of goo wherever it lands rather than a ring of goo, and hitting it sends it bouncing around for a few seconds, before it continues the chase- This would be it's last 3 hits, IMO.

This would cause players to have to mess with slopes some more, in tandem with more mobile threats, creating a boss that tests players on slope usage, as in recognizing how they effect physics and playing around with them (For example, jumping off a steeper part to get some speed away from one of the attacks), as well as having them perform a new interaction with the major gimmick as a threat.

 

[cookiefonster]

I touched up on this briefly in my initial reply to this topic. I generally agree. The slime balls hurting the player is inconsistent with the change made to the zone in that the goop bounces you now, and even if it was changed to green or something, the boss would still feel rather outdated and random.

The boss's slime was already colored from purple to blue in 2.2 for this very reason. Though it's nice when bosses use gimmicks from their zones, I don't personally think it's much of a necessity (look at Fang for example). I imagine that goop gimmicks, reworked or not, would make for a rather tedious boss.