Armageddon shield usefulness discussion

[cookiefonster]

I figured I'd make a thread about something in SRB2 that I've always been unsure how to feel about: the armageddon shield.

On a shield thoughts thread a few months back, Mystic said the following about the armageddon shield:

There are actually lots of places where the armageddon shield is useful, but we intentionally don't just put the shield next to those places except in GFZ1. It's designed to make you, the player, need to figure out where the best places to use the ability are and get the maximum benefit from it.

Are there actually lots of places where the armageddon shield is useful? I've extensively played through all the game's levels and I can only think of a few areas where it's at all useful, and even fewer where it's useful enough that I'd rather have it over a different shield (especially whirlwind, usually by far the most useful shield).

GFZ1 has the area that teaches you what the armageddon shield, with the locked-up crawlas that give you enough points for an extra life when you blow them up, DSZ1 and 2 have several areas where big crowds of mines can give you enormous score combos (like the massive swarm of mines surrounding an underwater invincibility monitor and attraction shield, for instance), Azure Temple has a few rooms with big crowds of Buggles and the room where you need to use the shield for the club emblem, and there's really not a whole lot else. Maybe you could also argue that the armageddon shield is useful in the various rooms in CEZ1 and Forest Fortress with Robo-Hoods surrounding a useful item, or the swarms of TNT in ACZ? The vitality of the armageddon shield in those areas is debatable at best, though. In some zones, the shield tends to be even detrimental—in THZ, it will tend to destroy spring shells which are useful to get to higher places, and even more insultingly, the shield's explosion makes Egg Guards more dangerous by peeling off their shields rather than killing them, which should really be changed.

I'd like to ask in this thread: are there more places that completely flew over my head where the armageddon shield's explosion somehow comes very much in handy, or was Mystic just full of nonsense when he said that? Mystic has always had a very specific view of the right way to play SRB2, and a strange habit of claiming his views were representative of the entire dev team's. He also seems to really enjoy making levels with absurd over-the-top challenges, which further puts into question the usefulness of the armageddon shield in levels he didn't make. I think the shield should just be reworked somehow, with maybe a charge ability or something, while keeping the ability to kill all nearby enemies if you're hurt.

 

[Zippy_Zolton]

I think it's useful when you come across an area with annoying enemy placement, you can easily deal with it by exploding your shield and not get interrupted by whatever was there.

 

[Seaballer]

Are there actually lots of places where the armageddon shield is useful?

In short: No
Long answer: No

My main problem with the armageddon shield is how it feels like fake bait. It's always in the hardest/most dangerous/most well hidden places, which would make you think that "wow, this shield is really useful" - GFZ1, the tutorial level, showcases this philosophy brilliantly by making Armageddon the only shield type with two monitors - while one is out in the open, the other is hidden alongside an emblem, which would alude to its usefulness. But -- and I'd say this is a problem with shields in general, really -- everything pales to the Whirlwind shield when it comes to utility. Armageddon's enemy blast feels like a relic of Doom's combat-based playstyle. SRB2 doesn't have that. It uses enemies sparringly, so detonating everything has little to no purpose, especially considering that Armageddon is also the only shield that completely disappears after ability use.

IMO, Armageddon would be a better shield if it was rechargeable. [idea by unknownlight] After using an Armageddon Blast, the shield would become gray for a while, and then gain back its color once you're able to nuke stuff again.

 

[pastel]

Most of the shields in the game sans whirlwind are currently too weak but Armageddon is the one shield I'd say needs to be tossed out and replaced entirely. Its design as a single use enemy nuke is an outdated relic of 1.0 era crawla army design. Shields should provide interesting supplementary tools to interact with the level design.

 

[cookiefonster]

Most of the shields in the game sans whirlwind are currently too weak but Armageddon is the one shield I'd say needs to be tossed out and replaced entirely. Its design as a single use enemy nuke is an outdated relic of 1.0 era crawla army design. Shields should provide interesting supplementary tools to interact with the level design.

I honestly wouldn't be sad if the armageddon shield was nuked (pun intended) from the main campaign while kept usable for custom maps, or maybe made exclusive to one or two bonus stages. Mystic said in the shield ability thread that five shields is a lot for new players to learn, so decreasing that number may be a better idea than increasing it. Whirlwind, attraction, elemental, and force but with a better ability sounds like a decent shield set to me.

 

[Kaysakado]

Yep, Armageddon feels useless and outdated in single player, and absolutely silly in PvP - I wouldn't miss it. SRB2 already has some lingering issues in the lack of meaningful enemy interaction (this is less of an issue in 2.2 for sure but still exists) and the nuke exaggerates that to the extreme.

I like whirlwind/attraction/elemental - they feel like a remix of and unique take on the classic S3K shields. Force isn't bad at all either, though yeah, it could use a different active ability. Maybe something less movement-oriented to differentiate it from the other shields? If it was combat-oriented that's an opportunity to fill the niche the nuke used to fill, but in a more interesting manner.

 

[DrTapeworm]

most of our shields are not particularly fun to use honestly, especially active abilities, which don't really play into movement much at all, unlike the S3K set (in their original source game at least)...i think whirlwind is the only one that does in any useful way (force shield's active is a literal placeholder, the elemental stomp is effectively the same but with fixed downwards momentum, the attraction shield homing attack just feels...flaccid)

 

[cookiefonster]

most of our shields are not particularly fun to use honestly, especially active abilities, which don't really play into movement much at all, unlike the S3K set (in their original source game at least)...i think whirlwind is the only one that does in any useful way (force shield's active is a literal placeholder, the elemental stomp is effectively the same but with fixed downwards momentum, the attraction shield homing attack just feels...flaccid)

By a placeholder, do you mean that dev couldn't come up with anything better (or anything that Mystic or Rob or whoever would allow)? If so, that explains SO much.

 

[Davs]

The only place i inmediately think of when someone mentions armageddon shield is in the puzzle section in ATZ, specially using it to cheese the third and last room so i dont have to do the horrible fans

But aside from that there's almost no real use for the shield, its more a: oh i got a shield that also kills enemies when i get hit, instead of: oh. I can probably use this somewhere with bad enemy placement to save my falling hair.

 

[Unknownlight]

IMO, Armageddon would be a better shield if it was rechargeable. [idea by unknownlight] After using an Armageddon Blast, the shield would become gray for a while, and then gain back its color once you're able to nuke stuff again.

Cool, I came into the topic to say the same thing (obviously)! Thanks for the assist!

The multiple visual effects used by the shield make it uniquely suitable for this. As it recharges, it can slowly get more and more red, and then it adds the rotating-halo-ring-thingy effect to indicate when it's fully recharged.

Getting hit by an enemy would cause it to explode and disappear normally, of course.

 

[GrayAngel]

Wait. People think the Whirlwind Shield is the best one? Am I the only one who replaces that shield with any of the others the first chance I get? I've always considered the Elemental Shield the most preferable one, taking away the need for bubbles when under water, protecting from fire damage, and leaving behind trails of fire when rolling or stomping, making some of the more difficult Badniks much easier to deal with.

But sometimes I go with the Force Shield, if I want to protect my rings extra closely. It's especially useful when collecting the ring emblems. Take damage while trying to get those emblems, and you'll likely have to start over, but the Force Shield grants you two free hits instead of one. And when I go Super, I'll nab the Attraction Shield to make collecting rings much easier. Unlike when in normal state, it doesn't go away when you go in the water. It's the only shield that seems to grant benefits to the Super state (but only if you grab it after transforming).

As for the Armageddon Shield, while not my preferred shield, I do use it. It can be nice to know that if an enemy gets a hit on you, they'll be taken out as well. So you won't have to even worry about taking them out before they knock the rings out of your...wherever Sonic keeps those. I do agree that having the voluntary activation have a cooldown instead of taking your shield would make it more useful. But then again, it might make it a bit too useful compared to the other shields. Why homing attack when you can clear the whole room?

 

[time gear]

It's fine but I never really feel like I need it. The only level in which I ever actually get that feeling is AGZ. Everywhere else, it's more of a novelty that I feel no need to actively search for.

I would probably like it more if it's range was greatly reduced but you got multiple uses out of it. The idea of a large area nuke sounds good on paper until you realize that in the vast majority of situations the most it's going to do for you is get you a big score bonus and maybe a 1-up.

 

[cookiefonster]

Wait. People think the Whirlwind Shield is the best one? Am I the only one who replaces that shield with any of the others the first chance I get?

Quite evidently, you're in the minority here. It's certainly interesting to see someone care more about the shield's passive abilities than their active abilities. The whirlwind shield's jump+spin ability is extremely valuable for mobility and platforming, especially as less vertically oriented characters like Sonic. I just like when a powerup lets you do fun things; for me that is a bigger priority than usefulness against specific hazards.

 

[sims]

I've never found utility in the armageddon shield's active ability, and very rarely intentionally use it as a bomb like designed. Mainly because there isn't many places in the main campaign where A. There are a bunch of enemies clustered in a confined area and B. I need them gone before I can concentrate on platforming.

Badniks in SRB2 feel less like obstacles in this game compared to the 2D games mainly because you can just walk around them, therefore there's less incentive to actively engage with them. In most stages they feel more like set dressing that you can either interact with or avoid as you wish, unless there's a particular section that forces you to deal with them before continuing (very rare in the main campaign outside of ERZ).

There's not really a way to fix this outside of placing more enemies in the campaign that need to be dealt with before continuing, which is just bad game design outside of this one very niche circumstance. I'm okay with the shield's current use of dealing with nearby enemies if it's destroyed, since no other shield has the same "get off me" capability. I'm also okay with being able to intentionally activate it if you so desire even there's little practical reason to do so, since otherwise someone's gonna complain that they have this bomb that they can ONLY use by getting hit.

 

[toaster]

The concept for the force shield that never got implemented was that the shine spark made by the stopping would travel with the momentum of the player before halt, and cause damage to enemies like a projectile. This has its roots in the belief that because the shield's passive was objectively either best or second best depending on how much water the stage has, its active needed to be more situational to avoid it dominating. This can also be seen in the design for the Attraction shield (ring drain is great but a bit less powerful, so homing attack is cool as heck but situational) and Elemental Shield (objectively the best shield if there's water or fire hazards in the stage, but good at platforming control) designs.

But the S3K shields don't care about "balance". Any one of them turns you into a platforming freak of nature, more ability than hedgehog. And now they're available to everyone in the challenge stages. So it's worth revisiting the SRB2 shields without this weight of expectations.

Already on the gitlab merge requests have been submitted for buffing the Bubble and Attraction shields, the former already merged for 2.2.7 and the latter very likely to. If you have coding knowledge and a solid idea, you're welcome to submit improvements for the other weak ones.

 

[D00D64]

If you're asking for suggestions on shields, I got a few.

I think the Armageddon Shield is still a nice shield to have. A screen nuke in a game is never unwelcome to me, and it could come in handy for things like a room with a few Hive Elementals stationed by. However, the fact that you can only manually use the shield one time means you will often be holding onto the burst for a moment that never comes, or until you find a shield to replace it with. I was thinking maybe there'd be a way to charge the shield; not by standing passively or something because that'd encourage standing around for nothing, but perhaps by collecting rings. As it charges, the Armageddon would gain its additional layers and at full charge, you can nuke without wasting the shield, but the shield charge resets. This would allow yout o build up and use the same shield multiple times, meaning you'd actually... use the darn thing. I'd also let it instantly break non boss enemies that take more than one hit. Not many of those int he game, I know, but still. It's a nuke, it better take 'em out.

Attraction Shield is a great homage to 3D Blast's own homing shield, and gives a jumping attack move to characters that usually dont have one. I think its mostly fine already, but it'd really benefit from the ability to chain attacks. One of my favorite things to do with Neo Sonic is do a homing attack on one airbrne foe and soar into attacking even MORE airborne foes before landing on a higher area I couldn't get to so easily otherwise.

The Elemental Shield's active ability is so limp and lame, it is easily the worst shield ability that isn't the nothing that is the Force Shield. It's like you combined the Flame Shield's charge and the Bubble shield's bounce into a really lousy and ineffectual stomp. Not only would I say to make the stomp far faster and not have the dumb little landing fart, and make it act more like the unleashed stomp but with a fiery attack wave, but I'd also suggest that if you have horizontal momentum, it becomes a divekick. Just Red Hot Kick stuff! Who doesn't love a good divekick? Losers, that's who. I'd say tapping to stomp/dive would make you bounce when hitting a foe (like as if it was a bubble) while holding as you stomp/dive would cloak you in flames and pierce through the foe so you can land instead. I always pictured the Elemental shield as less elements and more just hybridizing Flame and Bubble, so let's take traits from both and use them in its ability!

Whirlwind Shield functions great, but the imputs for it are weird. Mainly, you can save yourself from a fall or spring jump by pressing... the jump button? And not spin!? I'd also let the player use the whirlwind shield even after using a midair ability. Infact, that trait could probably apply to all shields...

And Force Shield... you already got your own ideas on that, no point in me saying anything. Really, just about anything is better then... the nothing.

 

[cookiefonster]

The concept for the force shield that never got implemented was that the shine spark made by the stopping would travel with the momentum of the player before halt, and cause damage to enemies like a projectile. This has its roots in the belief that because the shield's passive was objectively either best or second best depending on how much water the stage has, its active needed to be more situational to avoid it dominating. This can also be seen in the design for the Attraction shield (ring drain is great but a bit less powerful, so homing attack is cool as heck but situational) and Elemental Shield (objectively the best shield if there's water or fire hazards in the stage, but good at platforming control) designs.

But the S3K shields don't care about "balance". Any one of them turns you into a platforming freak of nature, more ability than hedgehog. And now they're available to everyone in the challenge stages. So it's worth revisiting them without this weight of expectations.

Already on the gitlab merge requests have been submitted for buffing the Bubble and Attraction shields, the former already merged for 2.2.7 and the latter very likely to. If you have coding knowledge and a solid idea, you're welcome to submit improvements for the other weak ones.

I'm not really a fan of this whole idea of making shield abilities situational in the interest of balancing them. Active abilities are really the highlight of Sonic shields for me, which is why I tend to favor whirlwind so strongly. The whirlwind shield may not directly protect you from hazards, but its double jump is an enormous help in getting around them. For example, take the case of water hazards. Although the elemental shield fully prevents drowning, whirlwind is also quite a help for dealing with water. The double jump increases the chance that you'll be able to poke your head out of the water for a moment, and lets you grab air bubbles more easily due to the increased height. No other shield has anywhere near as many cool and varied things to do with it as the whirlwind. I don't see any reason the other shields couldn't similarly have more interesting abilities.

 

[toaster]

Sorry, when I said "it's worth revisiting them without this weight of expectations", I meant it's worth revisiting the SRB2 shields to be more overpowered, not the S3K shields to be more underpowered.

 

[Icarus]

Shields are useless, remove them from the game because rings already exist.


Jokes aside that shield is just a smart bomb and I gotta agree that I'd rather have the elemental or Whirlwind one. But removing it wouldn't be fair.


Unless you replace that shield with the bomb item from Sonic Adventure.

 

[Charonik08]

IMO, Armageddon would be a better shield if it was rechargeable. [idea by unknownlight] After using an Armageddon Blast, the shield would become gray for a while, and then gain back its color once you're able to nuke stuff again.

I honestly agree. Throughout reading the whole thread, all I had in mind was Revi 9’s rendition of the Armageddon shield, where after intentionally using the shield, it would give you a ash shield afterwards, (which is just a one hit shield) so maybe this but the Ash shield can regenerate to become a Armageddon shield again.