Are the Classic spin off canon in the Mania universe

[time gear]

I'd just like to point out that the term "vitals" is indeed used for computers to indicate their performance in several areas.

Even if this isn't relevant, we know what Chezi meant: Robotnik was likely checking to see if Metal Sonic was even still functional.

Why would he need any information and statistics from the original Metal if he could just conjure up a illusion Metal with what he remembers? Illusions are already stated as being weaker IN Forces, so it's not like knowing exact stats would make a difference.

There is apparently a bit of a disconnect depending on dub. Apparently in Japanese they are stated as being weaker. I've not actually seen that but others in this thread have pointed it out. In the English dub however, it is stated that the illusions are just as powerful as the originals.

Eggman is the one who made Metal to begin with. He has the spec info on him because he made the info himself. As such, it's not unreasonable to assume that the monitor wasn't checking for anything, but was instead either merely displaying information he already had as Metal's creator, or was feeding that information into the Ruby somehow. I've already covered this in previous posts. Is it still possible he was checking for something? Sure, but then the question expands to what it is exactly he's doing to check. Does he have a drone that he sent out? Does the computer work via some sort of radar? Did he install a micro-transmitter into Metal at some point?

On top of this, the Phantom Ruby uses different powers in Forces compared to Mania. In Mania, it can warp space-time. In Forces? It's stated as only being able to create Illusions. Unless all of Mania is an illusion, there's a disperancy here.

We don't know that for sure. Mania's manual states it warps space-time, but that doesn't necessarily make it canon. There's a few factors to consider. For example, in lore Sonic and friends experienced the jump from Angel Island to Green Hill without anyone to explain it to them. The manual is merely describing this incident, which from their point of view only makes sense as a jump through warped space-time. Additionally, the illusions tidbit relates to major plot details in Forces, which was released later. They could have opted not to explain the illusions stuff in Mania's manual so as to not spoil how Infinite's powers work before Forces even comes out. As such, the majority of Mania very well could be illusionary. Not all of it, but a lot of it. The intention behind this would have been for you to draw the link yourself by playing both games.

You COULD state that the Terminal in Forces was simply stating all Robotnik knew.. Robotnik had the gem for longer than he did in Mania (A few months before his conquest, and the 6 months that he ruled the planet). It seems unlikely to me that he wouldn't run into the warping properties by sheer accident, like he did in Mania extremely quickly.

And no, the sun doesn't quite count; if it did, they'd all instantly be dead, as a star would be RIGHT above the planet, and even further, everyone on the planet would die. Unless we throw out all logic.

So, putting all that together... I find it unlikely that the Metal in Mania is an illusion.

The sun being smaller and weaker doesn't break Forces own logic, considering the Metal Sonic illusion you actually fight in Forces is bigger than normal. Eggman didn't want to destroy the world, he just wanted to wipe out the resistance. A suitably sized illusion of the sun to do that makes more sense than making a full on copy of it which would dwarf the entire planet significantly.

The science probably doesn't work out still, they should have likely been instantly roasted in the local area and vast distances in every direction, but that shortcoming exists regardless of the true nature of what the sun is and how it got there. If huge inconsistencies and plot holes were positive signs of quality, Forces would be a masterpiece.

I would argue that Eggman knew what he was doing in Mania, though. He's laughing as he activates it for the first time on screen, which is quite different from the surprise you would expect if what he was doing was accidental. How he knew how to use it is... Unclear, but he definitely doesn't seem like he's discovering it's power for the first time. Perhaps he discovered it already and had it in his possession, but lost it on Angel Island somehow? That would explain why Tails didn't detect it where it was back in Sonic 3. It wasn't there yet.

Overall, I still don't find it unlikely for Metal to be an illusion in Mania. It's one of those things that makes sense from multiple viewpoints, and a lot of the evidences in either direction are wrapped in mystery and speculation and function based on assumptions and opinions. That's the fun part about these kinds of things though.

 

[Chezi]

For example, in lore Sonic and friends experienced the jump from Angel Island to Green Hill without anyone to explain it to them.

This is simply because the Classic games have a “Show, don’t tell” type storytelling. The only time anything is directly told to us is when Knuckles has a flashback to Eggman stealing the Master Emerald and even that was also done through visual storytelling.

I would argue that Eggman knew what he was doing in Mania, though. He's laughing as he activates it for the first time on screen, which is quite different from the surprise you would expect if what he was doing was accidental. How he knew how to use it is... Unclear, but he definitely doesn't seem like he's discovering it's power for the first time. Perhaps he discovered it already and had it in his possession, but lost it on Angel Island somehow? That would explain why Tails didn't detect it where it was back in Sonic 3. It wasn't there yet.

I’d say that the Hard Boiled Heavies pretty much told him how to use it since it looked like they were having a conversation after the Death Egg Robot fight. And Eggman already having the Ruby in his possession wouldn’t make any sort of sense at all because Modern Eggman during his go around of Sonic 3 to Adventure didn’t have the Phantom Ruby. It’s something that exclusively appeared in the Classic Timeline on Angel Island and then traveled to the Modern Timeline for Modern Eggman to use in Forces

 

[time gear]

This is simply because the Classic games have a “Show, don’t tell” type storytelling. The only time anything is directly told to us is when Knuckles has a flashback to Eggman stealing the Master Emerald and even that was also done through visual storytelling.

You're not saying anything new or ground breaking here, and this doesn't prove anything one way or another.

I’d say that the Hard Boiled Heavies pretty much told him how to use it since it looked like they were having a conversation after the Death Egg Robot fight. And Eggman already having the Ruby in his possession wouldn’t make any sort of sense at all because Modern Eggman during his go around of Sonic 3 to Adventure didn’t have the Phantom Ruby. It’s something that exclusively appeared in the Classic Timeline on Angel Island and then traveled to the Modern Timeline for Modern Eggman to use in Forces

This would actually boost my illusion theory, because if it's the exact same Ruby then it's only reasonable that it works the exact same way and doesn't undergo a rules change from one game to another.

I do have to point out one detail though, in the name of honesty. If that were the case, why is it that the Ruby appeared such a long time before Classic Sonic? They should have been arriving through the same portal from the same incident.

 

[Chezi]

You're not saying anything new or ground breaking here, and this doesn't prove anything one way or another.

I wasn’t trying to say anything new or groundbreaking. I was just saying that there was a reason that no one sat down and explained to Sonic that the Phantom Ruby teleported them to Green Hill because it just wasn’t needed

This would actually boost my illusion theory, because if it's the exact same Ruby then it's only reasonable that it works the exact same way and doesn't undergo a rules change from one game to another.

This doesn’t mean that Classic Eggman knew how to make illusions. He utilized the few abilities he knew the Ruby had in the short time that he had it in order to regain control of Little Planet and build the Titanic Monarch

I do have to point out one detail though, in the name of honesty. If that were the case, why is it that the Ruby appeared such a long time before Classic Sonic? They should have been arriving through the same portal from the same incident.

The Ruby manipulates Space-Time, remember? It’s reasonable for the Ruby to pop out of the portal in a different time for Eggman to pick it up. Classic Sonic would have popped out in a different segment and appeared alongside Tails. And this isn’t any sort of headcanon stuff either; the way Classic Sonic is portrayed zooming through the portal’s tunnel is similar to other types of inter-dimensional tunnels seen in games like Lego Dimensions and movies like Avengers: Endgame where there are many “doorways” that lead to different points in time as well as different dimensions. We can also see that the Ruby is noticeably absent during the Ending Cutscene, meaning it’s somewhere that Classic Sonic isn’t

 

[time gear]

I wasn’t trying to say anything new or groundbreaking. I was just saying that there was a reason that no one sat down and explained to Sonic that the Phantom Ruby teleported them to Green Hill because it just wasn’t needed

Perhaps if you weren't cherry picking, you'd remember the point I was making to begin with. Now I'm going to have to go quote myself so that I don't have to repeat myself again.

We don't know that for sure. Mania's manual states it warps space-time, but that doesn't necessarily make it canon. There's a few factors to consider. For example, in lore Sonic and friends experienced the jump from Angel Island to Green Hill without anyone to explain it to them. The manual is merely describing this incident, which from their point of view only makes sense as a jump through warped space-time. Additionally, the illusions tidbit relates to major plot details in Forces, which was released later. They could have opted not to explain the illusions stuff in Mania's manual so as to not spoil how Infinite's powers work before Forces even comes out. As such, the majority of Mania very well could be illusionary. Not all of it, but a lot of it. The intention behind this would have been for you to draw the link yourself by playing both games.

This doesn’t mean that Classic Eggman knew how to make illusions. He utilized the few abilities he knew the Ruby had in the short time that he had it in order to regain control of Little Planet and build the Titanic Monarch

Riding off my previous quote, there's no guarantee the Ruby actually has Space-Time powers to begin with. This is an important point, because if not it means that it's two primary functions are as a source of power and as a method of creating illusions.

The Ruby manipulates Space-Time, remember?

It's like you are skimming my posts or something.

It’s reasonable for the Ruby to pop out of the portal in a different time for Eggman to pick it up. Classic Sonic would have popped out in a different segment and appeared alongside Tails. And this isn’t any sort of headcanon stuff either; the way Classic Sonic is portrayed zooming through the portal’s tunnel is similar to other types of inter-dimensional tunnels seen in games like Lego Dimensions and movies like Avengers: Endgame where there are many “doorways” that lead to different points in time as well as different dimensions. We can also see that the Ruby is noticeably absent during the Ending Cutscene, meaning it’s somewhere that Classic Sonic isn’t

Even if we were to assume it did manipulate Space-Time, it doesn't make sense for Sonic and the Ruby to travel through the same portal at the same time and pop out at entirely different times and places.

Also, no. That is headcanon stuff. A visual animation of Sonic doing a pose in reference to a trailer to connect the two games together doesn't connect to a lore point regarding Sonic and the Ruby emerging separately. You are inferring portal mechanics that aren't at all confirmed at any point in either of the two games, therefore it is your headcanon.

 

[Darknik]

Riding off my previous quote, there's no guarantee the Ruby actually has Space-Time powers to begin with. This is an important point, because if not it means that it's two primary functions are as a source of power and as a method of creating illusions.

I started researching and found several confirmations in Forces and Mania suggesting that Phamtom Ruby has the power to warp space time.

in the first place in the battle against Infinite when he loses against Sonic and the Avatar is teleported away from the place by the Phantom ruby

In second place at the end of Encore mode in Sonic Mania Plus, the Phantom Ruby creates a portal similar to Egg Reverie's without the help of Cao's emeralds which also suggests that Egg Reverie's was also the work of the Phamtom Ruby and not the Chaos Emeralds

in third place it is seen on several occasions how infinite alters gravity using the Phantom Ruby in Capital City

 

[DiscardedBiscuit]

I wasn't sure Infinite manipulating the avatars gravity counted but I was gonna cite how Infinite and some illusions basically have some form of psychokinesis, at the very least he could probably fling someone away real fast, also I swear I saw someone making connections to the time eater and the Ruby here, the time eater could flat out use portals in the Generations boss fight.

I don't know if it's worth noting the only time I ever seen a setting that's blatantly an illusion is when Shadow is sent to Green Hill.

 

[time gear]

I started researching and found several confirmations in Forces and Mania suggesting that Phamtom Ruby has the power to warp space time.

in the first place in the battle against Infinite when he loses against Sonic and the Avatar is teleported away from the place by the Phantom ruby

As I've pointed out before, that particular Infinite may have actually been an illusion himself. Notice how after his defeat he kinda flickers as if he's disappearing? He also wasn't teleported, you can clearly see him turn into some kind of energy and then beeline for a nearby tower. Perhaps trying to save himself from vanishing?

In second place at the end of Encore mode in Sonic Mania Plus, the Phantom Ruby creates a portal similar to Egg Reverie's without the help of Cao's emeralds which also suggests that Egg Reverie's was also the work of the Phamtom Ruby and not the Chaos Emeralds

We never see the other end of the second portal, or at least we haven't yet. As such, we don't know that the two portals are the same other than in a visual sense. The lack of emeralds is indeed an important detail, because until we see where that second portal lead Eggman or what it did to him, we can't conclude one way or another how the Ruby works off it. It could have worked like a black hole without the emeralds and destroyed everything that fell into it, it could have caused Eggman to turn invisible, etc.

in third place it is seen on several occasions how infinite alters gravity using the Phantom Ruby in Capital City

There's multiple evidences that Infinite is using the Ruby to alter perception in that level. Over the radio, we are told that other Resistance members are running around in a confused panic, and there are multiple large deformed Infinite illusions reminiscent of some kind of drug trip. As such, the implication is that gravity isn't actually changing, Infinite is just messing with the avatar's head.

Additionally, if Infinite actually had the power to alter gravity like this, why not just reverse gravity and send most of the Resistance into space?

 

[DiscardedBiscuit]

How does the Avatar actually get through the level if what they're experiencing isn't real? They'd be running blind. I know Knuckles flat out says "what you're seeing isn't real" but it just doesn't make sense to me. Everything the Ruby does appears to be very much physical and capable of hurting the player.

 

[time gear]

How does the Avatar actually get through the level if what they're experiencing isn't real? They'd be running blind. I know Knuckles flat out says "what you're seeing isn't real" but it just doesn't make sense to me. Everything the Ruby does appears to be very much physical and capable of hurting the player.

You'd have to ask the writers. There's a lot in Forces that doesn't make sense.

What I do know is at one point (when Infinite summons the sun illusion) Tails explains that while they are under the influence of the Ruby, it's illusions become their reality. This is why the illusions are actually dangerous to begin with. I assume it basically means that for example when Infinite creates the sun illusion, it's dangerous to those who can see it, but isn't actually capable of doing permanent damage to the planet.

This is also likely how the Avatar was able to save everyone from the sun. He/She was able to use the Ruby prototype to block it out of their own perception, and then somehow by going into the area they knew the illusion was extend that blocking to the rest of the resistance... Somehow. Because they could no longer perceive it, it could no longer hurt them.

In regards to the Capital City stage, this also likely means that Infinite was flipping the gravity in an attempt to cause the Avatar to slip up and hurt themselves, which would translate to real damage to their physical body even though the injury didn't really happen.

 

[DiscardedBiscuit]

I guess the Ruby has Freddy Krueger logic.

 

[time gear]

I guess the Ruby has Freddy Krueger logic.

Pretty much, but it works while you're awake.

 

[Darknik]

I started researching and found several confirmations in Forces and Mania suggesting that Phamtom Ruby has the power to warp space time.

in the first place in the battle against Infinite when he loses against Sonic and the Avatar is teleported away from the place by the Phantom ruby

In second place at the end of Encore mode in Sonic Mania Plus, the Phantom Ruby creates a portal similar to Egg Reverie's without the help of Cao's emeralds which also suggests that Egg Reverie's was also the work of the Phamtom Ruby and not the Chaos Emeralds

in third place it is seen on several occasions how infinite alters gravity using the Phantom Ruby in Capital City

I forgot to mention this at the end of Sonic Forces in the Japanese dialogues Tails mentions that the Classic Sonic returned to his world because they defeated the Phantom Ruby which means that the Phantom Ruby has the power to travel between different dimensions

In case you don't believe me, I found this video that translated the Japanese dialogues of Sonic Forces into English including this one

 

[Darknik]

I forgot to mention it but in the Japanese manual for Knuckles chaotix it is mentioned that Eggman used a repaired Metal Sonic which means that Knuckles Chaotix's Metal Sonic is the real one and it also means that at some point Eggman had to go looking for Metal Sonic to retrieve it and use it in Choatix which could prove Chezi's theory that Knuckles Chaotix occurs after Sonic Mania.

As for Giga Metal, it could be a prototype of Metal Sonic Kai or just a coincidence

Another thing that I forgot to mention is that many compare Giaga Metal Sonic with Metal Sonic Kai only because of his physical resemblance since if we start to analyze his boss's fight in Sonic Mania we realize that Giga does not have any of the abilities that Metal Sonic Kai possessed in Chaotix

 

[Chezi]

I forgot to mention it but in the Japanese manual for Knuckles chaotix it is mentioned that Eggman used a repaired Metal Sonic which means that Knuckles Chaotix's Metal Sonic is the real one and it also means that at some point Eggman had to go looking for Metal Sonic to retrieve it and use it in Choatix which could prove Chezi's theory that Knuckles Chaotix occurs after Sonic Mania.

As for Giga Metal, it could be a prototype of Metal Sonic Kai or just a coincidence

Another thing that I forgot to mention is that many compare Giaga Metal Sonic with Metal Sonic Kai only because of his physical resemblance since if we start to analyze his boss's fight in Sonic Mania we realize that Giga does not have any of the abilities that Metal Sonic Kai possessed in Chaotix

It’s worth mentioning that Chaotix still happens in the Modern Timeline. As for the Classic Timeline, it’s possible that it happens while Sonic left to go appear in Forces. This part is purely speculation and it’s just a quick little explanation I came up with. Of course, there’s no evidence supporting nor denying it. It is possible that we could get a Chaotix remake that has a lot differences that would either put it or the original in either timeline, meaning both versions would be canon. This would be similar to if they made a game that featured Classic Eggman going to the ARK early to release Shadow, meaning the events of SA2 wouldn’t play out in the Classic Timeline and whole new set of events takes its place

 

[Hee-Ho]

Sonic game plots really make no sense...at least in recent times, all this time travel and the whole concept of the phantom ruby was left WAY too open ended. I'm pretty sure in the case of Generations and Mania SEGA was thinking more about gameplay than making a cohesive narrative, like they just wanted you to revisit Perfect Chaos, or have a fight with Metal in Mania.

Not trying to discourage theorizing I just think trying to make sense of SEGAs recent lore is potentionally headache inducing.

Sonic canon was always headache inducing and insane af, one of the reasons why i love this franchise.

Yes, Metal Sonic in Mania is real, not a illusion. The only thing is illusion from the battle is it's Kai form, you see if you managed to defeat him he is turning pink and shatters, leaving Metal Sonic to fall to it's demise. If he IS a illuison, then Metal should't appear at all during death sequence.