Adding the "WOW" factor to a wad

[Kalaron]

What is the forum looking for in a mod that truly makes them say "WOW", what kind of a wad does it take to impress? Is it quality, or quantity?
Does the forum focus on gameplay and level design more, or less than visual effects, what kind of a mod does it take to truly leave a mark on the Srb2 community? I want the message board's opinion...

 

[Com]

I don't know if this belongs in General Discussion, but I'll leave that up to the mods.

Anyways, "WOW" comes from all the things you listed above. Quality and quantity together makes you say "WOW". Focusing on gameplay, level design, and visual effects all at the same time leaves a good "WOW". What kind of mod would leave a mark? One that is actually completed >_>

 

[BlueZero4]

First, quality over quantity. Sonic Ultima is a good example of a mod coming from a user who thinks quantity over quality. Most of the maps feel rather horrid, and there isn't much to do. Flat, bland, and generic. Try to avoid that.

Next, let's look at theme. Theme isn't gameplay, mind you. Having your average GFZ themed level with 255 lighting across the board won't score you much. Get something different. If somebidy else has done something pretty close to yours, please don't try it. I've seen way too many beach zones, Nuclear Sunset included. These zones that borrow a concept from something rather generic need something else. Without that spark of originality, your level is easily forgotten. One way of putting that spark into your level is using two different themes, for instance combining THZ factories and CEZ castles. Or course, themes need logical seperation. If you have a random GFZROCK wall in the middle of a THZ level, it doesn't look very good. For instance, the player should find a crack in the factory wall before venturing into the depths of the rock beneath. If you insist on putting a random them in your level, please, at least make the player turn a corner before looking at the city in your desert. The element of surprise is a useful tool.

Another useful part of theme is the music. Music can make or break your map, depending on what you use. If given factory is abandoned, then choose something calm. If given factory has people inside that don't want you here, shoot for something lively and arousing. Remember, you should be playing the level with your music when deciding on what to use. If it don't fit, take it out.

On to gameplay. First, I'd like to remind you that we play SRB2 because we want to, not because we have to. Hard levels suck, end of story. Most of the things that make levels hard is the platforming. These levels feature platforms. Yes, I'm talking about the little floating blocks. These platforms are usually small and hard to land on, and have a rather large drop below them, sometimes pit, sometimes not. They're very unforgiving. Rather, force the player to jump by using changes in elevation of your normal land. Good examples can be found immediately before the last starpost in THZ1 and the first portion of CEZ1. Make like Jade Coast, not like Prismatic Angel.

And yeah, "wow" does come from both, not one or the other.

 

[JEV3]

I can't speak for the community but as for myself, 'wow' is something that is original. eg.

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First part of a three part look at some of the shining examples of uniqueness.

Mods:

SRB2Riders - original because it is Riders style levels and such made for SRB2, and to add to that, they optimized the exe for the Riders gameplay.

SRB2JTE - Bots, enough said.

Acid-Missle - Uniqueness in level form and particularly bosses.

Blue Heaven - The finished product promises to be an alternate SRB2, also with a far more forgiving open air level than you would think, for you AGZ players that just can't get past the small platforms.

MLP - Very original level designs, from the moving floors sections beyond, it proves that two levels of the same precise theme can still be radically different. Also has some of the best bosses I've seen.

Chaotic Darkness - Very promising, and the emerald stages can only be rivaled by MR.
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A special area for extraordinary levels that are enough on there own to give me a WOW factor with just one level.

Levels:

Metalflower: Takes everything one could hope for a factory level to have, and makes it one big level. With the potential of becoming a full zone, this level is amazing and difficult.

Egg Palace: A subterranean counterpart to Areal garden with interesting surprises.

Moon Temple: Gimmick after Gimmick after Gimmick, and with the familiar AGZ style we know and hate.

Nitric Citadel: (see below)

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Now for a large section analyzing the biggest mod in SRB2 history as well as probably the most lauded level pack on the site.

Mystic Realm - A complete mod with seven full zones, one secret zone, and probably the only decent Supersonic stage here to date. Add that to the secrets, including playing an alternate version of the main game with different themes and more difficult enemies. The wow factor is most apparent on the diversity of the levels. I will give a list of each of the unique levels with a description to give you an idea of the diversity.

Beach (yeah thats original, *roll* but a Sonic game is incomplete without one) - easy and forgiving, but lots of paths and secrets.

Valley with Slime - Its your average level with pools of harmful liquid. However there are no factories. Alot of it remains to be simple platforming, but now has a penalty for messing up

Verdant Forest - Very seldom see levels like these, it seems mazelike, but you never get lost. (unless you are as stupid as I can sometimes be) It has alot of navigation with some open air platforming in the second act

Outdoor Volcano - Yeah we all know and love indoor volcano levels, but this is just on the outside. It is like a lava cave level with the advantage of having lots of open air segments that seem far less confined.

Ice - I think this started the trend of harmful ice water, but the use of the ice is very clever. Each level is short, but at the end is a grand finale that will make Sonic rue the cold day he came there.

Water and Factory? - Odd combination, but it works so well. It may not be as exciting, but it really gives away that flooded feel. It has underwater level features, with added factory obstacles. It also has what I consider the best emerald stage in the game but more of that later.

Open-air - Love-hate levels, everything is over a pit. It focuses on platforming, the catch? Dodge hordes of Jetty-syn's at the same time, as well as avoiding the red crawlas waiting for you at your destination. Each level has a few central areas, with the second giving you two paths each showcasing a gimmick. One has constantly moving platforms (my personal favorite) while the other has what look like floating logs, platforms that must be jumped at just the right angle or it would be almost impossible to land on the short side. (white shield for the win!)

AGZ Act 3 - Linear but gives you a chance to take each gimmick on its own in any order. Blue springs, floating logs, moving platforms, Jetty-syn hordes.

PAZ - The same thing that makes many hate it so much is what makes it special, it has difficult platforming, but no harassing enemies. Of course, being the cruel mapper Mystic is, he adds a feature that makes it still wicked hard. All sectors have 0 height. (well almost all) This means it is harder to calculate the distance. I do carry the opinion however that Mystic should split PAZ1 up into 2 as well.

Mystic Realm - Super Sonic stage that is not too boring but also keeps you occupied. Rings are hard to get to and take time. However they are necessary for you to reach the boss with sufficient rings remaining to fight him. o_O This level is THE hardest SS stage I've played. (ofc I did skip the 4 zones preceding it...)

Emerald Stages: Each are similar to the level's style but have a new feature that make them extraordinary.

Mudhole Karst: Similar simple platforming, but now has damaging mud, and is much more mazelike.

Toxic Citadel (?): Keeps the slime theme and then sends you into a castle with many crushers.

Labyrinth Woods: This level is impossible to go through by mere guess, makes you wish you had your compass...

Vulcan Forge: Lava factory, I love these levels! Pipe balancing and lava make for an interesting mix. Add crushers, cc's, and classic factory platforming and you get a winner.

Silver Cavern: What is harder than slipping? Slipping on platforms over pits. From climbing vast corridors to navigating dark caves with foreboding pits, it is sure to please those wanting a challenge and prepare some for the larger challenge to come in the form of AGZ

Nitric Citadel: My all-time favorite level, I wish it had a second act! You've got your factory and your turrets and the slime/acid. The catch, acid in insta-kill. With fixed and popup turrets harrassing you, while you rush to avoid the acid or squeeze out of a tight situation. When you are near the end, you are rewarded for your hard work with THZ sky with far more forgiving platforming.

Starlight Palace: Open air again, but this time, two paths take you on two different routes through the same central area. Couple that with the illusion of horizontal moving bridges near the end, makes it an interesting level. (oh and you can climb now)

 

[Spazzo]

Uh, quality work impresses me. It's just that simple. Too bad you don't see enough of it around here.

 

[BlueZero4]

JEV3, apparently you're new to SRB2. Those opinions are way off, and it appears you don't have any idea what makes a level work in SRB2. I can't say I blame you for it; that knowledge comes in time. However, you're giving crappy advice to a new level designer, which sucks.

Firstly, you're looking at Mystic Realm for the obvious good points in the level, rather than the subtleties that kill it.
I do get lost on Verdant Forest, mainly because Mystic has his paths pointed so that the alternate route that you could've took to enter this area is pointing at you, and the path you need to take is off on the side where you'd never see it. Thus, you're going in circles. In case you haven't noticed, going backwards without knowing it kinda sucks. I've found this happening to myself on Flame Rift as well.
Another problem, Verdant Forest conviently features crappy platforming. Flame Rift also has crappy platforming, even moreso than Verdant Forest.
Midnight Freeze features ice, which is horribly used; the player has to keep his speed low enough in order to move reasonably on the ice. It wouldn't be so much of a problem, except that it hurts when you fall off.
Sunken Plant wouldn't be too bad, except that you drown so much.
Aerial Garden has it's foundationon crappy platforming. Crappy platforming that kills the flow, yet Mystic is always talking about how he plays Sonic because of the flow. Weird.
Mudhole Carst and Toxic Citadel both have crappy maze-like designs. Of course, going for all the emeralds means you're a rather ambitious n00b....
Vulcan Forge centers around crappy platforming.
Silver Cavern is so stupidly hard it sucks. The crappy platforming is crappy. Up there with Prismatic Angel.
AGZ's emerald stage seems more like crappy platforming, but I haven't explored it thouroughly.

And JEV3, where the crap are the contest winning levels? Rocky Pass, Sunken Palace, Aero Shrine? They're so much better than MR, yet they're so freaking under your radar. Care to explain?

 

[Com]

Those opinions are way off

You sir, make me laugh.

Anyways, I find nothing wrong with hard levels. If it wasn't for the increasing difficulty in games, they would be a bore. Just because there are gimmicks in place that make you lose a life or two, it doesn't mean the level sucks. I find that the levels in MR are rather well made. They take the limited resources found in SRB2's current form and use them in clever ways to give each level it's own unique challenge. It is funny how nitty picky some people are when it comes to the level design of SRB2 levels. Seriously, give people a break. As long as a level is fun, imaginative, and features some basic good level design, it is alright in my book.

And that is my opinion. Disagree with it as much as you please.

 

[Shu]

Those opinions are way off

*facepalms* And I thought you where the smartest one in this thread.

All the contest maps I've played suck. Very badly.

Mudhole Carst and Toxic Citadel both have crappy maze-like designs. Of course, going for all the emeralds means you're a rather ambitious n00b....

Toxic Citadel? Maze-like? Heck, next to MRZ it feels like the most linear level in the Mystic Realm mod. And why would you not go after the emeralds in MR? You can't use them till' MRZ any way, and you must have them to play MRZ. See? It's a bouns level.

 

[BlueZero4]

Anyways, I find nothing wrong with hard levels. If it wasn't for the increasing difficulty in games, they would be a bore. Just because there are gimmicks in place that make you lose a life or two, it doesn't mean the level sucks. I find that the levels in MR are rather well made. They take the limited resources found in SRB2's current form and use them in clever ways to give each level it's own unique challenge. It is funny how nitty picky some people are when it comes to the level design of SRB2 levels. Seriously, give people a break. As long as a level is fun, imaginative, and features some basic good level design, it is alright in my book.

While some people may like crappy platforming, it doesn't mean that going around in circles is fun. Verdant Forest needs a few vertices moved around so that you're not going in circles.

Toxic Citadel? Maze-like? Heck, next to MRZ it feels like the most linear level in the Mystic Realm mod. And why would you not go after the emeralds in MR? You can't use them till' MRZ any way, and you must have them to play MRZ. See? It's a bouns level.

You know the first area where you're wandering around? Ya know, with the beds and such. There isn't any sense of direction at all, which I find to be sucky. Again, I wouldn't have a problem with any of the emerald stages except for the fact that Mystic Realm features them in the race rotation. >>

 

[JEV3]

JEV3, apparently you're new to SRB2. Those opinions are way off, and it appears you don't have any idea what makes a level work in SRB2. I can't say I blame you for it; that knowledge comes in time. However, you're giving crappy advice to a new level designer, which sucks.

Firstly, you're looking at Mystic Realm for the obvious good points in the level, rather than the subtleties that kill it.

BZ4 I have been playing SRB2 for a year and I have been around here almost as long. I have played many add-on levels and I have played levels with bad platforming and cheap deaths. I was using MR as an example of the great balance of diversity in the level pack. It also has, in my own humble opinion, the best levels designed for SRB2. You don't share that opinion, and I respect that, but either way, the examples show a great level of originality and detail within the pack, and that is the point I wanted to get across.

As for some of the contest winning levels, they are good, better than the other entries, but they were not enough to give me the 'WOW' that the listed levels conveyed so strongly.

 

[Com]

"Crappy Platforming"? "Crappy Maze-like Designs"?

Seriously.

Just because you don't like a element of a level doesn't mean it is "sucky". Verdant Forest is, yes, maze-like. However, Mystic made the level so even though the level is maze-like, it still keeps you in a decent flow. Hell, the classic Sonic games had levels with mazes like this. Just because you can't get past certain gimmicks or elements of a level, such as difficult platforming and maze-like designs, it doesn't mean other people can't.

The main problem with SRB2 right now is that there is a very limited selection of enemies to use, most of which are 1st and 2nd world enemies. The classic games, infact all good platform games keep a balanced difficultly between enemies and platforming. Due to the fact that SRB2 right now lacks challenging enemies (except Jetty-Syns), most people restort mostly towards platforming to add a element of challenge to their levels. And I like platforming. You don't. Most of what makes a good level is all up to opinion. That doesn't mean all the elements that make a good level are up to opinion, but most are.

 

[BlueZero4]

Verdant Forest's maze-like design is a conscious design on Mystic's part. And while some may like it, I don't. At the moment it just means I'll stay away from using that in some of my levels, and that's it. Mystic won't take it out because I'm whining about it now, since that level has probably been there for years now.

And while I do think that levels need some platforming, AGZ2 is really overdoing it. It wouldn't be so bad, except there's no way around it. If it was faster to take that route, but harder than the long detour, that would definately be a better design choice.