Why can only Sonic and Metal turn super?

glaber said:

I would just stick to the standard 1 ring per second just to not complicate things or get people trying to unofficially patch it like what happened with Sonic Generations Super Sonic.

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People are going to do that anyway though. That sounds like a complete non-reason to me.

I don't really see how it complicates things either. It's not a complex concept to understand that to make a bike move, it needs to consume fuel. In this case, rings.

Vehicals can consume fuel while ideling too.

We are talking aobut while super too unless the bike becomes a power up of its own like the Sea Fox in Triple Trouble.

glaber said:

Vehicals can consume fuel while ideling too.

We are talking aobut while super too unless the bike becomes a power up of its own like the Sea Fox in Triple Trouble.

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At this point it seems more like Fang wouldn't actually be "Super" so much as just using his bike in place of a Super Form. Also, a constant ring drain would just loop back around to the same problem they are avoiding of encouraging players to go fast.

However, say for example the bike only loses rings while moving, and at max
"running" speed only loses, say, 1 ring every 3 seconds or something. The ring drain would technically still be there, but the player would be more in control of it and would feel less pressured to actively seek out rings.

This is also why I was curious of if it would be possible to make the bike invincible, but not Fang himself. It would be much easier to abuse the invincibility since collecting rings would be less of a thing the player has to pay attention to, but if it's still possible to get hit and lose all your rings if hit from a certain angle, the player would still have reason to be careful since entirely running out of rings from getting hit would cause them to lose the bike.

It would basically be a tradeoff of having a vulnerable spot in exchange for more control over the ring drain. I'm not sure how possible that would be to implement though.

I don't think ring drain as a general concept necessarily needs to be avoided, and variable ring drain (plus an exploitable weak point in the hitbox) would definitely be enough to make Fang's bike feel distinct.

The variable ring drain alone makes it so that Fang isn't about going fast, but rather about being efficient.

time gear said:

At this point it seems more like Fang wouldn't actually be "Super" so much as just using his bike in place of a Super Form. Also, a constant ring drain would just loop back around to the same problem they are avoiding of encouraging players to go fast.

However, say for example the bike only loses rings while moving, and at max
"running" speed only loses, say, 1 ring every 3 seconds or something. The ring drain would technically still be there, but the player would be more in control of it and would feel less pressured to actively seek out rings.

This is also why I was curious of if it would be possible to make the bike invincible, but not Fang himself. It would be much easier to abuse the invincibility since collecting rings would be less of a thing the player has to pay attention to, but if it's still possible to get hit and lose all your rings if hit from a certain angle, the player would still have reason to be careful since entirely running out of rings from getting hit would cause them to lose the bike.

It would basically be a tradeoff of having a vulnerable spot in exchange for more control over the ring drain. I'm not sure how possible that would be to implement though.

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If collecting rings is really a problem, then place more rings on the map!

There's also the option for slower-paced characters to have an Attraction Shield (perhaps a weaker version) built-in to their super forms if you want to keep ring-drain.

All 6 use Sonic's Base stats.

Unknownlight said:

There's also the option for slower-paced characters to have an Attraction Shield (perhaps a weaker version) built-in to their super forms if you want to keep ring-drain.

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glaber said:

All 6 use Sonic's Base stats.

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I think he meant slower paced as in characters who's movesets aren't based around speed, like Amy and unlike Sonic.

Either way, I'm kinda against built in ring attraction for Supers. It would make going after ring attraction shield monitors a lot more pointless. I would rather approach solving the ring drain problem from another angle. For example, each character making use of rings differently in their Super Form. Something like Tails using 10 rings to make his next flight infinite or Amy using 10 rings to perform a stronger hammer attack or Fang using rings to fuel his bike, etc.

Instead of trying to solve ring drain, maybe figure out why it's there in the first place? From what I can tell, it's ther to balance out the super speed and invincibility by making it so you don't get to stay super unless you have the "cash", so to speak.

glaber said:

Instead of trying to solve ring drain, maybe figure out why it's there in the first place? From what I can tell, it's ther to balance out the super speed and invincibility by making it so you don't get to stay super unless you have the "cash", so to speak.

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By "solve" what I mean is how to tweak it so as to work more in line with the playstyle of each character.


For example, as you said, Super Speed and Invincibility are complimented by a ring drain that provides incentive for going fast and collecting rings to push back the timer. This works very well in line with Super Sonic, who is a character built around speed.

Amy on the other hand is more of a combat character than one of speed. So the puzzle that needs to be solved is what attributes her Super Form would have and how to balance that out with a loss of rings. One potential answer would be to give her an attack with her hammer that is stronger than her normal attack instead of giving her super speed. Now that the speed aspect is gone, you no longer would balance that out with a typical Super Form ring drain. Instead, the ring cost is now linked to using her stronger attack. Say for example, it costs 10 or 15 rings to use the stronger attack.

It takes a little bit of imagination, but all you really need to know to continue coming up with differentiated, balanced Supers for each character is that when you replace one of the traditional Super Form aspects with a new aspect, the complimentary balancing aspect also must be changed to match. If you take away Super Sneakers, it therefore makes sense to change the ring drain to something else.

So all you need to do is examine the playstyle of each character, decide which aspect of their playstyle most defines them, and balance around that. Knuckles can glide and climb, so it would make sense to give him the multiglide instead of Speed Sneakers, but put a ring cost behind each usage after the first glide until you touch ground or wall instead of the usual ring drain. Say for example, 5 rings per additional glide in the air.

Alternatively, we can ignore canon and balance altogether and just turn off ring drain for all characters, including Sonic. If all everyone wants is an overpowered reward for fun, why even bother complicating things?

Unknownlight said:

Alternatively, we can ignore canon and balance altogether and just turn off ring drain for all characters, including Sonic. If all everyone wants is an overpowered reward for fun, why even bother complicating things?

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That's a huge no for sure. Part of the appeal even to Super Sonic is being able to maintain the power through your own ability. If you aren't fast enough and run out of rings, you lose the form. This one weakness to the form is the aspect that makes using it so fun. Otherwise, you might as well just make it into a "win the level and move on to the next" button, because as soon as you activate it you have already won.

Playing as an overpowered character like HMS can be fun in short bursts, but you will quickly grow tired of it because there's no proper threat anymore. No risk of losing the form, no risk of death, no risk in general. Overall, such a state exists without an overall purpose.

Super Forms are indeed a fun overpowered reward, but that isn't to say they aren't balanced in their own way. They are overpowered in comparison to base form, and in comparison to enemies, but they are not overpowered to the most extreme definition. They are just the right amount of powerful to feel like a reward without getting too dull.

The problem with this discussion is we're delving pretty deep into theorycraft, but we can't necessarily know how something which sounds good on paper is going to play until we try it first. I think the better approach to all of this is to start with the features you want the character's "super" to have, code those features, and then work from there.

In Fang's case, just code the bike into the game with the core mechanics that you want -- no invincibility, no ring drain, no anything, and see how it plays. If after playtesting you decide it will play better invincible, or without losing all rings on hit, make it so.

Hate to say it, but if that's the way the bike is handeled, maybe it would be better being something you find in level instead of something fang gets for his super transformation. Like how the Seafox was in triple trouble.

Also there was still no proof that super for all reduces character diversity. So i still see no reason to remove invincibility and super speed.


Anything I suggest for someone's super form includes the ring drain, invincibility, and speed boost by default.

I think instead of rejecting the idea of it reducing variety, you should put yourself in the opposite position:assuming it to be true, how would you make a super form that instead emphasizes the variety? Then, once you have that, compare it to what a normal super form for that character would be like and see which one offers the most enjoyment.

Because I think a problem some in this thread have is only knowing one side. Sonic games have shown us characters with ring drain and all that, that is true. But the other side of the equation is a mystery. Until the devs or someone else come up with a prototype(preferably multiple) for what more unique Super forms for each character would play like, it is impossible to truly say which formula is more satisfying, rewarding, useful, etc. Any opinions now are mere conjecture. We can say what we think will be fun, but only in practice would we be able to truly form a concrete opinion.

As for the bike thing, it sounds neat, though it would require work

glaber said:

Also there was still no proof that super for all reduces character diversity. So i still see no reason to remove invincibility and super speed.

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I don't necessarily agree that somewhat homogeneous super forms are a bad thing either, but frankly, this is no longer the subject of debate. The team isn't interested in matching the purity test for what a super form is "supposed to be", but instead what is likely to be most beneficial to gameplay. Starting from scratch means we add the features that we know we want for certain, and invincibility and super speed are not necessarily those things.

well, any suggestions can be tested out by those with the know how to make them into a mod. In Super Amy's case, she's improved with VL_super.lua + VL_HammerJump-v1.3.1.lua or VL_ManyMinorTweaks-v0.1.lua + VL_HammerJump-v1.3.1.lua. Just try it out for yourself. You'll find it hard to go back to Amy not having hammer jump.

CobaltBW said:

I don't necessarily agree that somewhat homogeneous super forms are a bad thing either, but frankly, this is no longer the subject of debate. The team isn't interested in matching the purity test for what a super form is "supposed to be", but instead what is likely to be most beneficial to gameplay. Starting from scratch means we add the features that we know we want for certain, and invincibility and super speed are not necessarily those things.

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If that's the case. then at least allow me to present another case against the idea that Super gets in the way of character diversity. A Poll on Sonic Retro.
https://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?threads/a-question-about-supers.39036/
I had hopped to bring it up after about a week, but if the issue is shutting down, then I guess I have to present it now.

Glaber, just so we're clear: I don't disagree with you on Super as a concept. The question here anymore isn't whether the standard implementation of super on all characters is "okay" or not, the issue here is working beyond that to create something more unique and individualized for each character. Just because the way super is "supposed to be" works fine for most people does not mean there aren't better alternatives.

I'm not so sure there is an implementation that's going to be better without the basic formula as the foundation. Assuming it can be improved without that foundation I believe is flawed thinking.

I believe Super doesn't need to be something overly complex despite my recent idea for Super Fang. If super is suppose to grant more than the base formula, then 2.1's Multiplayer supers can be looked at for what Super Tails and Super Knuckles can have to be unique. Super Amy and Fang currently only have their base abilities and nothing to really reference, and Super Metal Sonic has his overcharge abilities from his normal form already.

Something to keep in mind is that Amy and Fang still need to use their abilities to bust through floors and pop monitors meaning that they're forced to still use their abilities even with plain super. Somthing like a Super Exclusive Hammer Jump that gives amy Red or yellow spring height would be a big improvement and compliment her hammer usage.

glaber said:

I'm not so sure there is an implementation that's going to be better without the basic formula as the foundation. Assuming it can be improved without that foundation I believe is flawed thinking.

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On the contrary, I think it's fallacious to assume that the foundation is necessary simply on the grounds that nothing else yet has been attempted. This is an argument from ignorance. If it is the case that our attempted implementation of alternate transform mechanics doesn't work out for these other characters, then we will know after playtesting.