How did Knuckles knock the emeralds out of Sonic?

The Real Inferno said:
Because, in this case, we aren't dealing with the Chaos Emeralds: we're dealing with the Master Emerald itself. The Master Emerald controls the Chaos Emeralds, but it doesn't control itself, is my guess.
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Alright here's my response, well this is simple to disprove.

Knuckles has shown the capibility of shattering the master emerald in Sonic adventure 2 so that means he most likely has control over the "master energy" within the master emerald so he can most likely just punch the energy out of Mecha Sonic to force Mecha Sonic out of his super form so still the question stands,
Basic Bronze Sonic said:
why wouldn't Knuckles just force Mecha Sonic out of his super form instead of just waiting patiently for Mecha Sonic's super form to run out?
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though don't worry chezi I'll get to you at some point

---------- Post added at 07:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 PM ----------

Chezi said:
In response to Basic Bronze Sonic’s theories about the timeline placement, there’s a lot of evidence that contradicts it. I’d like to state beforehand that interviews with the game’s creators, while they may seem informing, have been known to contradict and confuse facts established within the games and manuals.

1. Timeline Placement
The beginning of the timeline is laid out like this: 1-2-CD-3&K. Because there’s a large gap of time between 2 and 3, that leaves enough space for CD to fit as well as explain how Metal Sonic was superior to Mecha Sonic. After 3&K, the main timeline would go towards Chaotix (where Metal Sonic reappears) and then continue with the rest of the games starting with Adventure. In the Classic Timeline, the Time Eater picks up Classic Sonic after 3&K, making his timeline go as the following: 1-2-CD-3&K-Gens-Chaotix-Mania. This also brings me to my next point...

2. Classic Sonic comes from after 3&K.
This is simply shown from the fact that he knows how to deal with Metal Sonic and the Death Egg Robot. This explains why they have different fights, with Metal Sonic’s not being a race as Robotnik chases them and the Death Egg Robot being in a different room. Also, just because he was picked up from Green Hill Zone doesn’t mean that is during Sonic 1. Green Hill has been stated to be his favorite place to run because of the hills and loops.

3. Sonic didn’t meet Tails until Sonic 2
This is simply a fact that was ignored lol


So what does this mean?

Knuckles simply pulled a fast one on Sonic during 3&K. It’s quite possible that Sonic hasn’t been using the Chaos Emeralds during that gap because we don’t see them during CD. My guess is that Tails stayed behind and studied them as Sonic took a vacation to visit Little Planet, only to realize that Robotnik took it over. Sonic’s clear lack of understanding of how they work is what Knuckles took advantage of in that opening scene.

P.S. It does seem true that Generations, the game with the least amount of story, seems to have an answer to almost every lore related question
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Alright so this does disprove some of my theories (primarily this and this) but it does also support my "careless super Sonic because Chezi's explanation makes it to where Sonic is even more inexperienced with the chaos emeralds and knows even less about the chaos emeralds so in the intro of S3NK Sonic wouldn't have a care in the world about anything because he would be thinking that he is unstoppable with the power of the seven chaos emeralds with him which would still lead to him letting his guard down and we'll... getting the P U N C H , now of course it doesn't effect this theory but surprisingly it doesn't really effect this theory by that much either.

You see, super Sonic is entirely invincible while in the super form so the fact that Knuckles can simply just punch the super out of Sonic would mean that he can literally just one punch almost everything considering the fact that most things in the Sonic universe are usually not invincible so that would still make Knuckles well... the strongest character in the entirety of the main game Sonic universe (yeah eat your heart out super shadow) so time eater taking the classic Sonic from afterwards of S3NK doesn't disprove the very strong Knuckles theory.

Well that's all of my theories so far that is note worthy so all of my theories/responses that I didn't mention are not affected by Chezi's explanation so thank you for reading.
 
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I wouldn’t necessarily say that Knuckles was strong enough to punch the Chaos Emeralds out of him. We know characters can transform using the Emeralds in two different ways: Harnessing the power (Seen in Generations and 06 when Sonic had to share the power) or by absorbing them (Seen in Unleashed when Eggman pulls them out of his body). Because Sonic is inexperienced with them during 3&K, it’s likely he was simply holding them in his “pockets.” This is probably the simplest reason why Knuckles could punch them out
 
Chezi said:
I wouldn’t necessarily say that Knuckles was strong enough to punch the Chaos Emeralds out of him. We know characters can transform using the Emeralds in two different ways: Harnessing the power (Seen in Generations and 06 when Sonic had to share the power) or by absorbing them (Seen in Unleashed when Eggman pulls them out of his body). Because Sonic is inexperienced with them during 3&K, it’s likely he was simply holding them in his “pockets.” This is probably the simplest reason why Knuckles could punch them out
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...

Chezi said:
Because Sonic is inexperienced with them during 3&K, it’s likely he was simply holding them in his “pockets.” This is probably the simplest reason why Knuckles could punch them out
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.......

Chezi said:
simply holding them in his “pockets.”
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FINE I'LL RE-EXPLAIN IT, or I'll simply just quote myself because I'm lazy right now so...

Basic Bronze Sonic said:
well yes Sonic could have had the emeralds in his "pocket" (or wherever he stores them) but whenever we see Sonic go super then the emeralds come out and circle around him and we see that in Sonic adventure 2 and in Sonic 06 that the chaos emeralds energy can be shared with multiple people (Sonic heroes does not count) so the emeralds can't really just be stored in a pocket of some sort but instead might (and bear with me here) be stored within a pocket dimension of some sort (haha... get it?) because we all know that Sonic and shadow don't agree with echother like ever so there's no way they would come up to an agreement on who holds the chaos emeralds and also in Sonic 06 Sonic, shadow, and silver all in their super forms go into separate points of time but they're still in their super forms but you may be asking why am I saying this... Well if that theory is true then maybe we could say that Knuckles used chaos control to remove the emeralds from super Sonic's possession which Knuckles could probably do because he's been around the master emerald his whole life and we've seen him go super and hyper so maybe SIG7's theory might be correct.

Oh yeah also for evidence as to why he doesn't use chaos control ever again is because he probably just did it on accident and most definitely never learns how to do chaos control throughout the entire series.
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Sorry I just had to clear that up, other than that I actually agree with but I can see that I'm getting really close towards the problem that is interloping theories so I might stop posting theories here and just reply to ones that have been posted here to avoid that.

TLDR- yeah I mostly agree with you Chezi so good job on you so-

images
 
Thank for the choccy milk!

The point I was trying to make with that last post was that Sonic didn’t absorb the Emeralds like he would later on in the series. We can see in Unleashed that the Emeralds are a part of him and have to be pulled out with a machine. If Eggman had to make a machine to pull them out of Sonic, then Knuckles would have to do the same. If Sonic was just holding them, no machine is needed. You just need to sucker punch him
 
My theory is this: It wasn't the punch that knocked Sonic out of Super; it was the sudden nature of Knuckles' attack which caught Sonic off guard and spooked him, causing him to drop the emeralds accidentally. Sonic is known to react as fast as he runs, so the "knockback" from the punch could have been Sonic just leaping back while startled to dodge the punch. This causes the emeralds to fly out from wherever Sonic was storing them.

This explains why Knuckles can't knock Sonic and Mecha out of Super later on. It's because he never was strong enough to do it to begin with.
 
time gear said:
My theory is this: It wasn't the punch that knocked Sonic out of Super; it was the sudden nature of Knuckles' attack which caught Sonic off guard and spooked him, causing him to drop the emeralds accidentally. Sonic is known to react as fast as he runs, so the "knockback" from the punch could have been Sonic just leaping back while startled to dodge the punch. This causes the emeralds to fly out from wherever Sonic was storing them.

This explains why Knuckles can't knock Sonic and Mecha out of Super later on. It's because he never was strong enough to do it to begin with.
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To support this theory further: at the point of the beggining of Sonic 3, Sonic had only used the chaos emeralds for about at most less than a month considering that Sonic 3 takes place after Sonic 2 in which because of this Sonic wouldn't really have that much of an understanding of how to properly use the chaos emeralds so it makes sense why Sonic would just slip up like that considering that Sonic had close to no experience with the chaos emeralds.
 
Basic Bronze Sonic said:
To support this theory further: at the point of the beggining of Sonic 3, Sonic had only used the chaos emeralds for about at most less than a month considering that Sonic 3 takes place after Sonic 2 in which because of this Sonic wouldn't really have that much of an understanding of how to properly use the chaos emeralds so it makes sense why Sonic would just slip up like that considering that Sonic had close to no experience with the chaos emeralds.
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I would like to agree with that, but the fact that Sonic mastered the emeralds only in Sonic 3 (which takes like 3 or 5 days?) makes no sense, i think that you weren't supossed to transform in the Knuckles fight and that's was a little mistake from writers and designers (to put at least 30 rings in Hidden palace)
 
Axolex53 said:
I would like to agree with that, but the fact that Sonic mastered the emeralds only in Sonic 3 (which takes like 3 or 5 days?) makes no sense, i think that you weren't supossed to transform in the Knuckles fight and that's was a little mistake from writers and designers (to put at least 30 rings in Hidden palace)
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The first time Sonic transformed with the Chaos Emeralds was in Sonic 2, right? He uses them to destroy the Death Egg and is saved by Tails in his super cool airplane. The Death Egg crashes onto Angel Island sometime later and they go over to investigate. This essentially means that Sonic had no experience using them going into the Death Egg and Eggman had no experience fighting Super Sonic since that was their first encounter. In between 2 and 3&K, Sonic would have no practice using them and, as above stated before, likely doesn’t absorb them like he does in later games and just holds them in his “pockets.” Meanwhile, Eggman is pondering how to defeat Super Sonic and discovers the Master Emerald, it’s similarities to the Chaos Emeralds, and Knuckles. Eggman tricks Knuckles into knocking the Emeralds out of Sonic, which happens quite easily because Sonic is inexperienced with them. He’s cocky about it and thinks nothing can stop him, which is why he goes cruising onto Angel Island the way he did.
 
Chezi said:
Eggman tricks Knuckles into knocking the Emeralds out of Sonic, which happens quite easily because Sonic is inexperienced with them. He’s cocky about it and thinks nothing can stop him, which is why he goes cruising onto Angel Island the way he did.
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This adds onto my theory that Sonic was just spooked by Knuckles, and didn't actually have the emeralds punched out of him. In his overconfident, cocky state, he let his guard down. Then suddenly Knuckles' fist comes out of seemingly nowhere, like a jumpscare. Sonic suddenly jumping back in a panic rattles the emeralds out of his "pockets", causing Knuckles to be able to confiscate them so that Sonic can't transform again.
 
time gear said:
This adds onto my theory that Sonic was just spooked by Knuckles, and didn't actually have the emeralds punched out of him. In his overconfident, cocky state, he let his guard down. Then suddenly Knuckles' fist comes out of seemingly nowhere, like a jumpscare. Sonic suddenly jumping back in a panic rattles the emeralds out of his "pockets", causing Knuckles to be able to confiscate them so that Sonic can't transform again.
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Yeah, i think that factor surprise explains all, because also in Unleashed Super Sonic was caught while his guard is down, and Eggman knowing that Sonic already mastered the Chaos Emeralds, uses that factor in favor
 
Axolex53 said:
Yeah, i think that factor surprise explains all, because also in Unleashed Super Sonic was caught while his guard is down, and Eggman knowing that Sonic already mastered the Chaos Emeralds, uses that factor in favor
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Yeah, at that point Eggman realized that Sonic absorbs the Emeralds and built a machine to pull them out of him
 
My theory is Knuckles cancelled out the emeralds SOMEHOW with that uppercut.
 
I'll finally provide a more in-depth answer as to why I believe that the cause for this is Knuckles using his experience with the Emeralds to cancel them out whilst uppercutting, whilst also showing that the "Sonic was inexperienced with Super" actually helps my case.

Now, as I originally said, Knuckles has been around the Master Emerald his entire life, and this likely means he has far more mastery over "Chaos Energy" than Sonic had by the time. Now, he also has a direct tie to the Master Emerald, as shown by the presence of the radar in the Treasure Hunting stages for Knuckles, and some other quirks.

It's not hard to believe Knuckles simply used this to cancel out the Emeralds, catching an inexperienced Sonic off-guard, as he's only figured out how to pull this off a month ago (yes, there's a month-long time gap between Sonic 2 and Sonic 3, as proven by this piece from the Japanese manual of Sonic 3: "Many days pass...

On an island far from where the floating island hit the sea surface, Tails, a two-tailed fox, read a strong Chaos Emerald reaction on the Jewel Reader, a machine he has developed." Even without this, Sonic 3 would have HAD to have a considerable amount of time after Sonic 2 for certain elements of the game to make sense, such as Robotnik's mining efforts already being quite a bit underway in Lava Reef. Fun fact: Mushroom Hill's gimmick is actually hinted towards in the Sonic 3 Alone Japanese manual: "(...) and changed the floating island's nature into a more severe one with an environmental change machine").

Now, why didn't Knuckles try this on Mecha Sonic? There are several factors, but the most important one is... are you able to get up to Mecha Sonic without him falling out of Super in S3&K? As far as I know, no, you can't. Knuckles can't get up high enough without turning Super himself, and then we're talking about events not depicted in S3&K and not really implied elsewhere either.
 
The Real Inferno said:
Now, why didn't Knuckles try this on Mecha Sonic? There are several factors, but the most important one is... are you able to get up to Mecha Sonic without him falling out of Super in S3&K? As far as I know, no, you can't. Knuckles can't get up high enough without turning Super himself, and then we're talking about events not depicted in S3&K and not really implied elsewhere either.
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If it had to do with the fact that Sonic was still rather inexperienced at the time, then logically the same thing wouldn't apply to Mecha Sonic. Mecha is a robot, and so operates within programming parameters. If my theory were to be true and Sonic was spooked out of Super, this wouldn't work on Mecha because Mecha can't feel fear or surprise. Even if my theory is wrong and it relates to inexperience in another way such as you describe, the same still wouldn't work on Mecha because robots aren't "experienced" in the same way organic life forms are.

Thinking about it from Eggman's perspective, he just witnessed the amazing power of Super Sonic recently during the events of Sonic 2. Perhaps this made him rethink things and he decided to research more into the emeralds to find out if he could find a way to counter Super Sonic somehow. This could be how he became aware of the Master Emerald, and it's ability to negate or amplify the power of the emeralds, as well as it's ability to function as a great power source all on it's own. With this in mind, logically Eggman would have designed Mecha to be able to absorb Chaos Energy and transform with the intention of using this power against Sonic. Even if Sonic had the seven emeralds and found some way to avoid their power being negated, as long as Eggman was in possession of the Master Emerald, he could sick Super Mecha Sonic against him.

The flawed nature of Mecha's Super Form could be down to incomplete research, time constraints, or simply boil down to how difficult it is to transform using Chaos Energy to begin with, let alone sustain such a transformation. Sonic seems to have a natural talent and affinity for the emeralds for some reason, with the only real exception being Mania. Though, in the Mania timeline who knows what crazy adventures Mighty and Ray have been on, and Tails has certainly grown more experienced himself. Perhaps his experience transforming with the Super Emeralds in Sonic 3 allowed him to learn how to transform with just the normal emeralds in Mania, something Modern Tails still hasn't done as far as I'm aware.

Back to the main point though, Mecha is a pretty special case in regards to whether or not Knuckles would even be able to negate the form. He might be able to do so by doing the ritual from SA1 and SA2 to negate the power, even though the form is powered off the Master Emerald itself rather than the Chaos Emeralds, but that would require someone to keep Mecha busy for him.
 
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