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Old 04-01-2020   #1
Moose the Fat Cat
 
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Default Campaign Replayability

The game already contains a lot of replayability options, even before you factor in the online multiplayer component. Six playable characters in the base game, plus NiGHTS stages, Bonus stages, Record attack, and Emblems, to say nothing of the possibilities provided by mods. There's more to SRB2's replayability than any of the classic Sonic games by a country mile.

Even so... Is there enough? I feel like more could be added in there, considering the vastness of each stage. Each act in SRB2 feels like the equivalent to a stage in Super Mario 64 to me (even more than they feel like Doom levels with platforming), and it'd be cool if there were more SM64-style missions that sent you back to the same level but with a different purpose, as a bonus, if that makes any sense?

Here are some ideas that can work separately, or all together as perhaps a "Mission Mode" or something, however it's easiest to present.

1) Achievement missions with on-screen counters, like:

kill all enemies/free all animals before finishing the Act (do this for all levels, earn Freedom Fighter badge/emblem)

collect every ring before finishing the Act (do this for all levels, earn Ring Master badge/emblem)

2) An additional collectible separate from Tokens and Emblems, like the red star coins in the modern Sonic games, or the red/purple coins in 3D Mario games. Something like the Korok seeds in BOTW that kind of just "fill space" for areas where nothing useful is going to be found, but you will still find something.

3) Emerald hunting missions, basically like the SA games. Have 3 emeralds/gems randomly spawn in selected spots around the map or in badniks. Find all three. Do this for each level, earn Treasure Hunter badge/emblem.



Do you agree it would it be fun to have "missions" for each level, or do you disagree and think there's already more than enough content without adding in extra items/counters?

What do you think, and what are your ideas?

Last edited by Moose the Fat Cat; 04-01-2020 at 06:23 AM.
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Old 04-01-2020   #2
Icarus
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6 different characters (7 if you count Sonic + Tails and Sonic alone as separate) is enough replayability for a Sonic game.

Sonic doesn't need those artificial way to increase it like in many of Sega's modern Sonic game (which ends up being more annoying than useful)

I mean many people complained about the Emerald Hunting missions in SA1-2 and the Werehog stages in Unleashed (and they were right).

Sonic 3&K and Sonic Mania handled the replay-value well by introducing characters that plays like Sonic but also have their own quirks (such as Knuckles having to use alternate paths or the Encore Mode in Mania).

So no, Sonic shouldn't have a "Mario 64 style mission" in the game.


PS: There are more than 100 emblems in the game, this is a good collectible for most people there.
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Old 04-01-2020   #3
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Honestly, it took me ~60 hours to 100% 2.2. I was being fairly relaxed about it (I could've completed it much faster if that was my goal), but the idea of even more challenges and collectables kind of scares me.
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Old 04-02-2020   #4
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I mean many people complained about the Emerald Hunting missions in SA1-2 and the Werehog stages in Unleashed (and they were right).
I think the difference is those stages were mandatory to continue the campaign, and they really break the flow of the gameplay. So I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying basically "optional post-game content" similar to Korok seeds or purple coin stars.

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PS: There are more than 100 emblems in the game, this is a good collectible for most people there.
I suppose. It's while hunting for emblems that I thought about how a lot of nooks & crannies are empty. Particularly in Deep Sea Zone, there's a lot of hiding places that could have some type of something.

---------- Post added at 03:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:56 AM ----------

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Honestly, it took me ~60 hours to 100% 2.2. I was being fairly relaxed about it (I could've completed it much faster if that was my goal), but the idea of even more challenges and collectables kind of scares me.
Yeah, that's about the timeframe for me too. I enjoy replaying the levels for the sake of it, but I'm not super into Time Attack.... so instead I'll make up missions like "find and kill every badnik" as an excuse to explore everywhere and run around. Maybe I'm the only one who does that? But it's a pretty fun way to replay.

(Also Doom already has a kill count in every game, so I figured it might be easy to implement, hence the suggestion!)

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Old 04-02-2020   #5
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I suppose. It's while hunting for emblems that I thought about how a lot of nooks & crannies are empty. Particularly in Labyrinth Zone, there's a lot of hiding places that could have some type of something.
I agree with this. The current number of collectibles isn't directly proportional to the level sizes. I appreciate how huge and filled with alternate paths the stages are, but I find little reason to explore them when most areas are empty beyond having some monitors. I wish they would add more collectibles to reward exploration.

I don't agree with the other suggestions, though. I think challenges that require players to collect every single ring/destroy every single enemy would be too over the top and not remotely fun.

Last edited by Spiky; 04-02-2020 at 04:15 AM.
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Old 04-02-2020   #6
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I agree with this. The current number of collectibles isn't directly proportional to the level sizes. I appreciate how huge and filled with alternate paths the stages are, but I find little reason to explore them when most areas are empty beyond having some monitors. I wish they would add more collectibles to reward exploration.

I don't agree with the other suggestions, though. I think challenges that require players to collect every single ring/destroy every single enemy would be too over the top and not remotely fun.
It's pretty fun to just run around THZ and CEZ and DSZ and GFZ and just set out to thok/glide through every bot, in a more laid back unrushed way than time attack. Maybe just me.
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Old 04-02-2020   #7
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I think the difference is those stages were mandatory to continue the campaign, and they really break the flow of the gameplay. So I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying basically "optional post-game content" similar to Korok seeds or purple coin stars.
I think that even if those were optional they wouldn't be considered to be good anyway...

Sonic is mainly about going fast through the levels, it's not a collectathon like Mario 64 or Banjo & Kazooie. Having a Time/Score attack mode is a good thing for replay value, not adding more collectible.

I think emblems are a nice thing but they're not mandatory to finish the game (and it's a good thing).
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Old 04-02-2020   #8
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I think that even if those were optional they wouldn't be considered to be good anyway...


Sonic is mainly about going fast through the levels, it's not a collectathon like Mario 64 or Banjo & Kazooie. Having a Time/Score attack mode is a good thing for replay value, not adding more collectible.



I think emblems are a nice thing but they're not mandatory to finish the game (and it's a good thing).
Sonic isn't just about going fast. The series has basically embraced exploration since the beginning, with the 8-bit versions of Sonic 1 and 2 having the Chaos Emeralds hidden in the levels themselves, Sonic CD having the time posts, robot teleporters and Metal Sonic holograms, S3&K having the hidden giant rings, etc. Those games put a greater emphasis on exploration than time/score attack challenges. And later games have further expanded on the exploration and collecting.

Saying that "Having a Time/Score attack mode is a good thing for replay value, not adding more collectible" is just your opinion. Personally, I've never cared for time/score attack challenges, and find them to be worse padding than collectibles, as they basically make you to repeatedly replay the levels until you did good enough. Once you find the shortest/best path, you'll always be taking it until you beat the challenge, whereas when hunting collectibles, I'm exploring different sections of a level.

Last edited by Spiky; 04-02-2020 at 10:29 PM.
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Old 04-03-2020   #9
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Sonic isn't just about going fast. The series has basically embraced exploration since the beginning, with the 8-bit versions of Sonic 1 and 2 having the Chaos Emeralds hidden in the levels themselves, Sonic CD having the time posts, robot teleporters and Metal Sonic holograms, S3&K having the hidden giant rings, etc. Those games put a greater emphasis on exploration than time/score attack challenges. And later games have further expanded on the exploration and collecting.

Saying that "Having a Time/Score attack mode is a good thing for replay value, not adding more collectible" is just your opinion. Personally, I've never cared for time/score attack challenges, and find them to be worse padding than collectibles, as they basically make you to repeatedly replay the levels until you did good enough. Once you find the shortest/best path, you'll always be taking it until you beat the challenge, whereas when hunting collectibles, I'm exploring different sections of a level.
Yeah, exactly. Record Attack is a fine way to replay the levels a certain way —it doesn't need to be an either/or — but these levels are so big, and so fun to explore, I don't see a downside to adding more little encouragements in that direction.

If nothing else, a kill count!
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Old 04-03-2020   #10
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Originally Posted by Spiky View Post
Sonic isn't just about going fast. The series has basically embraced exploration since the beginning, with the 8-bit versions of Sonic 1 and 2 having the Chaos Emeralds hidden in the levels themselves, Sonic CD having the time posts, robot teleporters and Metal Sonic holograms, S3&K having the hidden giant rings, etc. Those games put a greater emphasis on exploration than time/score attack challenges. And later games have further expanded on the exploration and collecting.

Saying that "Having a Time/Score attack mode is a good thing for replay value, not adding more collectible" is just your opinion. Personally, I've never cared for time/score attack challenges, and find them to be worse padding than collectibles, as they basically make you to repeatedly replay the levels until you did good enough. Once you find the shortest/best path, you'll always be taking it until you beat the challenge, whereas when hunting collectibles, I'm exploring different sections of a level.
I dunno, Sega marketed the series as "gotta go fast" in years... And the more modern game had the boost gameplay because it was following its core concept... The collectibles were more like side elements that weren't too important for the game's completion.


To be honest I'd rather play some mods while waiting for a newer version of the game that adds new zones/acts instead of having to virtually extend the game's length.
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Old 04-03-2020   #11
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I dunno, Sega marketed the series as "gotta go fast" in years... And the more modern game had the boost gameplay because it was following its core concept... The collectibles were more like side elements that weren't too important for the game's completion.
Just like the collectibles proposed in this thread, amirite?
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Old 04-03-2020   #12
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Just like the collectibles proposed in this thread, amirite?

The emblems in the game are good enough I think. It would make the game a bit "messy" if there were too many of them.


PS: I've never understood the appeal of red rings in the Sonic game since Colors and onward... Emblems should've been more situational than just be in alternative roads in the game.
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Old 04-03-2020   #13
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The emblems in the game are good enough I think. It would make the game a bit "messy" if there were too many of them.


PS: I've never understood the appeal of red rings in the Sonic game since Colors and onward... Emblems should've been more situational than just be in alternative roads in the game.
Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because I disagree with everything in your post. More emblems would make the levels feel less empty and more worth of exploring, not more "messy" in my book. Rewarding exploration isn't a bad thing.

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Old 04-03-2020   #14
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The game kind of has a lot of replay value, but that replay value is a tad odd.
Character wise, you get next to nothing for emeralds with anyone other than the Sonics, unlock Fang and Metal from one playthrough, and just about everything else is unlocked exclusively by emblems.
In other words, theres nothing to really look forward to if you're just playing another character and the reply value is just the fact you get to try different abilities.

It works, but I feel it could be done better. Honestly I'd rather get rid of the emblem systems almost entirely, keep them for time and nights mode, and spread the unlockables through actually completely playthroughs. Pandora Box feels more like a proper reward for 100% every character than it does for collecting one-off items. Or at the very least if we kept emblems, put them in ways where every character can get them.

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Old 04-03-2020   #15
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The game kind of has a lot of replay value, but that replay value is a tad odd.
Character wise, you get next to nothing for emeralds with anyone other than the Sonics, unlock Fang and Metal from one playthrough, and just about everything else is unlocked exclusively by emblems.

It works, but I feel it could be done better. Honestly I'd rather get rid of the emblem systems almost entirely, keep them for time and nights mode, and spread the unlockables through actually completely playthroughs. Pandora Box feels more like a proper reward for 100% every character than it does for collecting one-off items. Or at the very least if we kept emblems, put them in ways where every character can get them.
I'd be completely opposed to this, hunting for emblems in the levels is probably my favorite part of SRB2's post-game. Yes, even more so than the unlockable characters.
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Old 04-04-2020   #16
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The emblems in the game are good enough I think. It would make the game a bit "messy" if there were too many of them.

PS: I've never understood the appeal of red rings in the Sonic game since Colors and onward... Emblems should've been more situational than just be in alternative roads in the game.
I don't think it'd be too messy. Not asking for a collectathon like a Rare game. But the amount of empty areas make the game feel somewhat unfinished.

I can agree with you a bit on Sega Team modern Sonic games, but those games don't have anywhere near the open explorability of SRB2 levels.
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Old 04-05-2020   #17
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I don't think it'd be too messy. Not asking for a collectathon like a Rare game. But the amount of empty areas make the game feel somewhat unfinished.

I can agree with you a bit on Sega Team modern Sonic games, but those games don't have anywhere near the open explorability of SRB2 levels.
If you think SRB2 feels unfinished, that's because it is. I get what you're talking about here, but it's very important to keep in mind that this game is a work in progress (as awe-inspiring and polished as the current version is).
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Old 04-05-2020   #18
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If you think SRB2 feels unfinished, that's because it is. I get what you're talking about here, but it's very important to keep in mind that this game is a work in progress (as awe-inspiring and polished as the current version is).
I know :) That's why I'm making the suggestion! That, and just shouting into the void in general.
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Old 04-11-2020   #19
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I don't actually think that we need more collectibles, but what I do like about this suggestion is the idea of alternative methods of picking up emblems. Destroying enemies is a goal that doesn't involve delving into various nooks and crannies like emerald hunting or more collectibles would do, but it does give another way to unlock more content if that's not your thing. I would also advocate for stage-specific goals, like doing a run of DSZ while spending under a certain threshold of time underwater or one of RVZ without touching lava. These are obviously just off the cuff and not well thought out, but I think alternative goals like that add a lot more replay value than the current emblem system.
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Old 04-11-2020   #20
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There's still a lot of content not in the main campaign, including whole zones, and therefore new emblems, badniks, and etc. Perhaps some of the existing levels could use some small tweaks here and there to make replaying through as the same character a little bit more fun, but overall I feel like it will work itself out.

I would be more interested in seeing some of the other modes expanded on, maybe some new modes entirely added, but the main campaign already feels like enough to call it a full game, by the time SRB2 gets it's final update this will no doubt be even more true.
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