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Old 12-24-2019   #181
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(And if there are other games like SRB2, please let me know. I want to play them.)
It's not exactly the same, but there's a fangame that IIRC is called Sonic 3D that seems to take some inspiration from SRB2. It's not as well designed, but it might be worth taking a look at if you are looking for that sort of thing.
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Old 12-24-2019   #182
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Nah. I literally can't think of a single game that plays anything like SRB2—from its controls, to the way characters move, to the level design philosophy. I could go on for pages about all the ways SRB2 ignores the norms before we get anywhere close to talking about Supers.

(And if there are other games like SRB2, please let me know. I want to play them.)
Spark the Electric Jester 2. Sort of. Kind of. Not...really? But it's the closest, really.


Anyway SRB2 threw slavish adherence to canon out the window when it gave Sonic an ability from the Adventure era, complete with its SA1 sfx, so yes, caring about that is a moot point by now.
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Old 12-24-2019   #183
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If anything super-ish DOES happen, Knuckles' jumpheight shouldn't change so that his noclimb pathsplits remain a factor, just like Fang and Amy's vertical pathsplits remain a factor without any way to spin. :P
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Old 12-24-2019   #184
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To preface anything I have to say here, I don't really have any stakes in this discussion because I don't even like to use super forms as they currently are in normal SRB2 gameplay, I feel that being invincible takes away a lot of what I find interesting about the game. But I've been thinking about this and had a few ideas about super forms in SRB2 at least, and how to make them more interesting and unique for the other characters.

I agree that super forms made the characters in S3&K play basically the same, but I definitely don't think that would be the case in SRB2 because it's a game where each character is very ability focused and going super would not take away those abilities. I also think that writing this off as a "vocal minority" is very disingenuous when this discussion comes up with each major release and there are a few different people involved each time in addition to the regulars arguing for more super forms.

I do think the other characters shouldn't get the same type of super that Sonic and Metal get, however, so here are a few alternative ideas I've been thinking of that hopefully keeps what makes these characters interesting intact.

Tails: With all 7 emeralds, Tails could get back their super jump from the pre-2.2 era of multiplayer supers. Where pressing spin while in the air would launch them high into the air, and instead of a normal super transformation they could just use this super jump at will to give them extreme vertical mobility at a cost of 10 rings per jump. Enhancing what makes Tails unique (vertical movement is what they specialize in any way). This could also be linked to a super transformation instead, which wouldn't make the player invincible, increase their normal movement speed and would not drain their rings. But require the player have 50 rings before unlocking the super jump that drains 10 rings per-use.

Knuckles: I think Knuckles could get a conventional super transformation, but without the invincibility or movement speed increase that the others are associated with. Instead of letting him destroy enemies around him by gliding into walls like with his hyper form in S3&K. Enforcing the idea that he's a slower but more deliberate and powerful character that seems to be encouraged in 2.2. To balance out how he won't have invincibility in this form, the ring drain could be at half speed or maybe it would just cost him 10 rings to use the wall smash when gliding.

Amy: I like Amy in this game specifically because she's the underpowered challenge character. I think that's a genuinely interesting part of her design that adds more to her than people seem to be giving it credit for. But if she had a super transformation, I'd be happy to see it focus more on her hammer and how she attacks instead to focus on what makes her character unique. Giving her hammers attack significantly longer range, making her spin in the air with the hammer for a longer time after activating the ability so the timing is less punishing, or maybe even giving her a hammer jump in a super transformation (which is something I see people request relatively frequently!). And if a hammer jump is used, make that cost 10 rings peruse after transforming instead of the regular ring drain to discourage that 'gotta go fast' mentality that is the reason the other characters can't turn super.

Fang: It seems wrong for Fang to have a super form to me, especially when he already has a rad flying bike in Triple Trouble called the Marvelous Queen. Just frame getting all 7 chaos emeralds as he uses them to repair the bike, or maybe he just uses them to buy the bike. And at the cost of 50 rings Fang can activate it and ride that instead of a normal super transformation. Which could give fang a two-hit shield and enhance his spring jump by using a spring on the bottom of the vehicle instead, either by giving him a higher tail bounce jump or enhancing his mobility in the air while bouncing. Alternatively (or maybe in addition to this) it could also give Fang the ability to fire his popgun while moving. Given the player would be paying the 50 rings cost of super upfront, there would be no need for a ring drain effect here either.

Anyway, those are my ideas on super forms. None of the characters mentioned above would have normal super forms that drain rings to avoid the current problem where it encourages all of the characters to go fast all the time. And in fact, having conditional abilities that drain rings on use would encourage the player to take it slow and explore a little more to collect rings to allow them to use these abilities more often. Hopefully, this contributes something to the discussion then!
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Old 12-24-2019   #185
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Frankly, what matters most to me is:
1.They have Super forms at all
2.They don't get locked out of any kind of true final boss if that ever comes to pass.

So the idea of reworking Super for them is intriguing, and honestly, consistency is not an issue. And Canon is an excuse I absolutely have scoffed at anytime it was brought up. If you can make it different and fun to transform as other characters, then all the better.

One thing. If you do rework things like Invincibility, speed, and ring drain for other characters, those specific things could be arguments for S_SKIN much like supercolor. Not only would people absolutely opposed to the change easily be able to revert, but more importantly, it would make it that much easier for custom characters to set up a basic balance for their own super forms. Obviously, unique abilities would have to have their own luas and such, but for basic things like what their stats are like in Super form.

Also, as said before, an option to disable the super music. Personally, I love it, but some do wish they could run around while still hearing the normal music.

And frankly, I feel like having Super forms like that would give SRB2 so much uniqueness.
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Old 12-24-2019   #186
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I will be honest here. If the people at srb2 team did allow all the characters to go super, you would definitely not have any complaints and I doubt anybody would be severely bothered for it to the point a thread is made. But hey they want to make their life more harder by going against the super majority that strongly favors all characters going super. In the end they made it, they get to decide what goes on in the game than.
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Old 12-24-2019   #187
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Someone isn't paying attention. They're talking about giving different kinds of super forms. Also, bold to assume complaints would stop at any change.
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Old 12-24-2019   #188
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Complaints would at least be less frequent with everyone allowed to go super.

I think I remember that complaints increased when super for custom characters was limited in 2.0.
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Old 12-24-2019   #189
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It still the same type of talk.

"Let us give them all Super, but let us downgrade them so much to the point that it is not really Super than."

Like it making something very simple become complicated. Yes I suppose there few would complain versus the overwhelming people who would complain if they were not all allowed to go Super.

The point is if they all had Super to begin with, the number one new thread would not be about why certain characters are being discriminated against from being allowed to go Super. Yes that is kind of strong language but still if you think about it really is unfair.

I will admit people have strong feelings about this. You know there is another reality where this game was released with all characters allowed to go Super and they have a thread praising the decision.
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Old 12-24-2019   #190
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I mean, who said anything about downgrade? I feel like unique supers could enhance the game even more and still give the feeling of being super-powered, just feeling like a super-powered version of the character you are playing as. Still glowing, still with music, just focused differently. And that idea intrigues me a lot more.
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Old 12-24-2019   #191
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You can build off of super without downgrading it first though.

Srb2 Super Sonic is basicly Normal Super sonic with 2 extra abilities. Thok and floating. It's a simple step up from what Sega has offered in the past.
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Old 12-24-2019   #192
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One thing that comes to mind in regards to Amy's Super Form: It would be really cool if while using the hammer in the air, you could either tap spin/double jump to use the hammer normally, or you can hold the button down and do a multi-spin with the hammer that gains a little bit of height and forward momentum, and then slams the hammer down on the ground/an enemy damaging all enemies and breaking breakable walls (that aren't Knuckles only) within a certain range.

This would also act similar to Knuckles' crouch in that doing this would kill all your speed when you land on the ground with it, but at the same time perhaps she could be rewarded for landing on an enemy with it (aside from bosses) by shooting up high into the air.
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Old 12-24-2019   #193
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Just frame getting all 7 chaos emeralds as he uses them to repair the bike, or maybe he just uses them to buy the bike.
Okay, I have been officially convinced. Now we need everyone to have Super so we can get a little cutscene of Fang giving the seven Chaos Emeralds to a random mechanic to get Marvelous Queen all fixed up.
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Old 12-24-2019   #194
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Okay, I have been officially convinced. Now we need everyone to have Super so we can get a little cutscene of Fang giving the seven Chaos Emeralds to a random mechanic to get Marvelous Queen all fixed up.
Nack would do that knowing him.
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Old 12-24-2019   #195
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Fang: It seems wrong for Fang to have a super form to me, especially when he already has a rad flying bike in Triple Trouble called the Marvelous Queen. Just frame getting all 7 chaos emeralds as he uses them to repair the bike, or maybe he just uses them to buy the bike. And at the cost of 50 rings Fang can activate it and ride that instead of a normal super transformation. Which could give fang a two-hit shield and enhance his spring jump by using a spring on the bottom of the vehicle instead, either by giving him a higher tail bounce jump or enhancing his mobility in the air while bouncing. Alternatively (or maybe in addition to this) it could also give Fang the ability to fire his popgun while moving. Given the player would be paying the 50 rings cost of super upfront, there would be no need for a ring drain effect here either.
Ah, I see you're a man of culture.

I also think Fang's bike could have the same dash mode attack as Metal Sonic has (he can run over enemies if it's fast enough) but in retrospect you run into the issue of Metal Sonic as a whole which is... a big question mark in this all? Why does he have a super form again?
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Old 12-24-2019   #196
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I mean, who said anything about downgrade? I feel like unique supers could enhance the game even more and still give the feeling of being super-powered, just feeling like a super-powered version of the character you are playing as. Still glowing, still with music, just focused differently. And that idea intrigues me a lot more.
Yeah you have a point. I mean truthfully as long it was not a downgrade and was unique and special to each one I suppose that works out.
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Old 12-24-2019   #197
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It didn't bother me that Miles & Knuckles couldn't turn super in the pre-2.0 build, because the special stages before Nights, especially stage 7, was rather distasteful for those who wanted Super Sonic. Because that level had platforms that crush you to the ceiling above a bottomless pit & you had to make precise jumps to get said rings.



But they leveled the playing field now that this special stage is universal for all playable characters. However, I'm on the boat of having different perks for non-Sonic characters for invincibility & speed shoes combined was right up Sonic's alley before Miles & the rest were even playable. Giving everyone super forms in Sonic 3&K then taking it away in the sequels was an oops on SEGA's part.



From my perspective, lack of universal super forms is not a dealbreaker for me. Still enjoying this build for what it's worth.
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Old 12-24-2019   #198
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Fang could get away with useing his airbike running on power rings for fuel. The bike could be slippery on land ancmd controll like metal sonic's hover in the air. You could also give the bike a drill smash attack like from Triple Trouble to allow for breaking the bustable floors still.

And when the rings run out, the bike could fly forward and explode damaging anything it hits.

I imagine this also having fang invincible durring the ring count down too, but could also work like how the sea fox did in truple trouble if it was its own thing too.
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Old 12-24-2019   #199
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Fang could get away with useing his airbike running on power rings for fuel. The bike could be slippery on land ancmd controll like metal sonic's hover in the air. You could also give the bike a drill smash attack like from Triple Trouble to allow for breaking the bustable floors still.

And when the rings run out, the bike could fly forward and explode damaging anything it hits.

I imagine this also having fang invincible durring the ring count down too, but could also work like how the sea fox did in truple trouble if it was its own thing too.
If the bike used rings for fuel, it would probably be best to only drain rings while moving (and not being propelled by a spring) and to also drain rings at a rate dependent on how fast the player is moving.

I wonder if it would be possible to give the bike it's own hitbox, and make the bike itself invincible while allowing Fang himself to still be hurt by enemies?
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Old 12-24-2019   #200
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I would just stick to the standard 1 ring per second just to not complicate things or get people trying to unofficially patch it like what happened with Sonic Generations Super Sonic.

the way I would picture is is that Fang does his transformation sequence, becomes invincible, and lands on his bike. this could put a limitation on where fang could transform unless he were to have new replacement transformation sprites where his bike is pulled out from hammer space.
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