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Old 02-29-2020   #1
SSNTails
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Default 'LEGACY' control scheme wrt Knuckles Climb

The 'LEGACY' control scheme doesn't behave as 'LEGACY' did with respect to Knuckles climbing. CAMERA TURN LEFT and CAMERA TURN RIGHT should cause Knuckles to strafe on the wall, rather than only turning the camera.
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Old 03-01-2020   #2
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Legacy is just standard with directionchar disabled so I don't think removing that new functionality was ever supposed to be part of it. Why are you trying to strafe with camera turn keys anyways? The new behavior is consistent with what those keys normally do.
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Old 03-01-2020   #3
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Why are you trying to strafe with camera turn keys anyways? The new behavior is consistent with what those keys normally do.
Well, AJ probably wants it because those are the controls he's used to, but on a personal note... I kind of want the legacy controls too just for the pure novelty of being able to play SRB2 with an NES controller.

Last edited by Unknownlight; 03-01-2020 at 06:16 AM.
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Old 03-01-2020   #4
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Legacy is just standard with directionchar disabled so I don't think removing that new functionality was ever supposed to be part of it. Why are you trying to strafe with camera turn keys anyways? The new behavior is consistent with what those keys normally do.
Open v2.1. Start a new game with Knuckles. Climb a wall. Press the 'turn left' and 'turn right' keys. Knuckles climbs left, and right.
Jump off the wall. Press the 'turn left' key. Knuckles turns left.

The ruse is that the 'Camera Turn Left' and 'Camera Turn Right' keys aren't really what they say they are -- they are actually the controls for the old player right and left turn. If the scheme is called Legacy, it should behave as Legacy. I have no problem with Standard and Simple continuing to require strafe for climbing.
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Old 03-01-2020   #5
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I only picked the name "Legacy" in the simple controls branch because I couldn't come up with a better single word to describe "behavior where the player always faces forward by the camera" at the time when "Standard" describes what it does. Maybe "Shooter" works better in hindsight?


I'd be up for a name change, since I didn't properly consider the implications that naming it "Legacy" would bring up. It's not a reason to revert the turn/strafe distinction, though. A full separation of moving keys and turning keys is important for consistency's sake.
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Old 03-01-2020   #6
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I only picked the name "Legacy" in the simple controls branch because I couldn't come up with a better single word to describe "behavior where the player always faces forward by the camera" at the time when "Standard" describes what it does. Maybe "Shooter" works better in hindsight?
Mystic calls it 'tank', which I think is a good description.
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Old 03-02-2020   #7
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The problem is that we know from testing that having the camera keys change into movement keys for certain situations was a huge part of the new player understanding problem. While I know you in particular are affected by this change, I suspect the number of other people affected is very small to the point that it's not something we should be including an option for, especially when we know that new players encountering said option would dramatically impede their learning the game.
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Old 03-02-2020   #8
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I'm not sure the "it confuses new players" argument applies in this case as there's basically no situation where new players would choose the "Legacy" play style option in the first place.

On the other hand, the "this is literally the very last thing on the priority list and we have a million other things we should be doing first" argument is very applicable.
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Old 03-02-2020   #9
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You might be genuinely surprised how often weird options like that are chosen by newer players for various reasons, partly because those players are new and don't really understand what the options they're selecting are. I don't expect most new players to select an option labeled "legacy", but I've seen enough data to know that basically every option that shouldn't be selected by new players will be, so we shouldn't include features we know are problematic in vanilla even as optional toggles.
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Old 03-02-2020   #10
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You might be genuinely surprised how often weird options like that are chosen by newer players for various reasons, partly because those players are new and don't really understand what the options they're selecting are. I don't expect most new players to select an option labeled "legacy", but I've seen enough data to know that basically every option that shouldn't be selected by new players will be, so we shouldn't include features we know are problematic in vanilla even as optional toggles.
I don't really agree with this in this case. To even get to the "Legacy" option, a new player is required to navigate into a menu that blatantly makes it obvious there's multiple different control options for the game. If they don't like the option they picked, either they will try one of the other options like a sane, rational human being, or they will try to complain about it and get shot down by everyone explaining to them that there are other options to pick from, and it will have been their own fault.

I'm not really a fan of the mentality of "Options for veteran players shouldn't be available because they might turn off new players" in general. Make these options require navigating through menu's to get to them and then it's the user's problem, not the developers. It almost feels like a blatant insult to the intelligence of new players to assume that most of them won't realize after navigating menus that have multiple options to pick from that they have options to pick from after picking them.
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Old 03-02-2020   #11
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It almost feels like a blatant insult to the intelligence of new players to assume that most of them won't realize after navigating menus that have multiple options to pick from that they have options to pick from after picking them.
The problem is that we have hard data from dedicated testing that says that this is a significant issue. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have options for experienced players who want them. It means that we should consider how many people want the option versus the potential harm it would have should a new player find it and bullheadedly think it's what they want. In this case, having an option to change camera keys into movement keys while climbing is something a few people desire but has the potential to be actively harmful to new players who find it and use it.

Everything is a balancing act where we weigh the pros and cons, and also consider the development time that would be necessary to do such a thing. This is something where the cons far outstrip the potential benefits.
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Old 03-02-2020   #12
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I think I figured out what the issue is here --- there are actually not three, but FOUR existing control schemes throughout SRB2's lifetime:

1) Tank controls with climb strafe - 'SSNTails's scheme -- arrow keys only'
2) Tank controls without climb strafe - 'Mystic's scheme -- WASD + mouse'
3) Tank controls with directionchar - v2.2
4) Analog mode

'Legacy' is currently reflecting #2. while Standard is #3, and Simple is #4. Up through v2.1, SRB2 had #1, #2, and #4. Now it has #2, #3, and #4.

Not suggesting any action about it, but making a statement.
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