Could a "Doomsday Zone" like stage work in SRB2?

[Unknownlight]

Originally Posted by Dabir

"Final Fight Zone" is a terrible name. At least change it to "Final Flight", if it's a NiGHTS stage.

I really like this. An homage to the original name while being less generic.

That said, SRB2 zone names tend to be terrible and generic. "Deep Sea". "Red Volcano".

[time gear]

Originally Posted by OP345

unless we want a very simplistic and easy boss, the Super Sonic moveset will not work.

Again, you only think this is true because of your lack of imagination to see the potential in it. You mistake your lack of vision as objective truth. For example, take the concept of Doomsday Zone's opening phase, a boss that is rushing to get away from Sonic whist occasionally firing missiles at him to slow him down. This could be applied to Super Sonic's 3D moveset by creating something of an obstacle course for Sonic to cross in his Super Form, designed around that moveset.

On occasion, Eggman fires missiles at Sonic in an attempt to slow him down and potentially cause him to fall into a bottomless pit. Sonic must dodge these missiles whilst avoiding falling behind too much, collecting rings along the way to maintain his transformation. Instead of attacking Eggman directly, perhaps some of the missiles are differently colored and Sonic can jump into them to reflect them back at Eggman. Alternatively, the goal could be to find buttons to push that cause Eggman's rockets to turn on him and deal damage, or to fire new rockets at him.

In either event, there are ways to teach the player on the fly simply through observation and cues rather than assuming they are incapable of adapting to this boss the same way they adapted to, say, the DSZ boss or CEZ boss when they presented new elements that weren't seen in the levels before them. As this is the final boss, the player is to be treated as though they are experienced with the game, not as though they are a total beginner who has no idea what they are doing.

Just because you can't personally think of a way to make a boss work within a certain gameplay style does not make it objective truth that it can't be done. As such, yes, I do believe there are ways to make it work even with the Egg Reverie style and NiGHTS style. It is pure arrogance to simply dismiss the potential of any of the three styles just because you personally lack the imagination to make it work as anything other than an easy boss.

As an additional note: Complexity and Difficulty are not directly linked. Doomsday Zone is a fairly difficult boss the first time you play through it, even though it's incredibly simple; simply catch up to Eggman and smash into him for the first phase, and then trick him into shooting himself by taking advantage of the homing properties of his missiles. The same kind of principle (That a hard boss can be simple) can easily be done in SRB2 (and already has been) if the imagination to implement it is present.

[ManuelRome]

Originally Posted by OP345

Please, this entire discussion is not whether we can do this but rather whether we should do this and it's blatantly obvious, if we to make things fair, that we shouldn't. Throwing random concepts that utilize Super Sonic in new and difficult ways into the final boss that the player has never even seen or used before is ridiculous but it is what's necessary if we want to make a hard final boss that doesn't just give Eggman 100 lasers.

Now this, this I completely disagree with.

First of all, there's no "we", anybody here is free to talk about the potential ways a stage like this could be done in SRB2, that's what I was trying to do with this discussion, throwing ideas here and discuss wether or not they would work considering how the devs see the game as a whole.

Now, I do think both a NiGHTS style stage and a 3D stage could be made for the game, the question is not which one should they make, but working out how either option could work, that was my initial intention for this thread, I think it's fine if it goes other places, but I don't think you should be shutting off ideas just because you personally don't think they should make them real.

[Jaco Boy]

Honestly I really like the idea of having a 2 type final battle like in mania, although id prefer if it was done slightly differently. You could have different phases, 2D gameplay that plays similarly to the nights special stages, and a sort of normal/platforming phase. Doing this could test your skills in both of the games play styles. Although I would rather if any nights portion would focus less on collecting orbs and more on keeping your ring count up while also damaging the enemy.

[ManuelRome]

Originally Posted by OP345

Saying "we" does not invalidate others from speculating on a stage or any idea. Commonly, "we" is used as a general term for the participants in the discussion (i.e. me and time gear). It is not an example of me trying to shut down discussion.

I haven't shut down discussion at all. Time gear is literally continuing with their idea and I am generally very uninterested in arguing about it. It's not like me using the term "we" is something authoritarian.

I see, it just seemed to me like you didn't want to agree on time gear's idea just because it wasn't a NiGHTS styled stage, and because you just think it's impossible to make a 3D stage work.

That's what I meant when I said you were shutting down ideas, as in, not accepting anything that's a 3D stage just because it's a more difficult option to work with. If that wasn't your intention in what you said there, then I apologize, I misinterpreted what you said.

I do think, reading everything people have posted here, that there really isn't an option that would realistically satisfy most people, since SRB2 has a lot of different gameplay styles at play, and yet, the special stages stuff and also Super Sonic, is basically locked behind playing the NiGHTS stages to get the emeralds.

That being said, the fact that the player has to master NiGHTS gameplay in order to get Super Sonic, doesn't really matter all things considered, is not like other Sonic games use gameplay similar to the special stages on any boss, just because the player is used to playing those stages to get the emeralds, so I don't think that argument holds up that much, assuming of course that they are planning to follow Classic Sonic's formula.

A new gameplay style exclusive to Super Sonic could be fine, as long as it doesn't use a lot of new concepts thrown to the player. For instance, I think an Egg Reverie moveset could be fine, as long as it's not too complicated or counterintuitive to the player to learn.

[Unknownlight]

Originally Posted by ManuelRome

That being said, the fact that the player has to master NiGHTS gameplay in order to get Super Sonic, doesn't really matter all things considered, is not like other Sonic games use gameplay similar to the special stages on any boss, just because the player is used to playing those stages to get the emeralds, so I don't think that argument holds up that much, assuming of course that they are planning to follow Classic Sonic's formula.

I think this is kind of a moot point. The only classic game to have a Super Sonic final boss at all is Sonic & Knuckles, inventing the concept, and then the later 3D games with Super Sonic bosses don't have special stages.

[ManuelRome]

Originally Posted by Unknownlight

I think this is kind of a moot point. The only classic game to have a Super Sonic final boss at all is Sonic & Knuckles, inventing the concept, and then the later 3D games with Super Sonic bosses don't have special stages.

To be honest, I didn't really consider that, and I was also counting the Advance games as Classic Sonic for some reason, even though they most likely would fall on the Modern Sonic half, and I'm not even sure if you need to get the emeralds to unlock that final boss, since I didn't beat those games myself.

But still, special stages gameplay are usually exclusive to them, that gameplay isn't really used in anything else in any game, so using that gameplay for a boss fight seems a little weird to me.

[time gear]

Originally Posted by OP345

I haven't shut down discussion at all. Time gear is literally continuing with their idea and I am generally very uninterested in arguing about it. It's not like me using the term "we" is something authoritarian.

All I have done is try to explain why using Super Sonic's regular moveset is a valid option with potential to it, just as the other options are. You have replied every time with effectively "You can't do that without the boss being simple and easy" even though this is plainly false. If you aren't interested in arguing over it, you shouldn't be instigating the argument in such a way as to keep me on the defensive. If you aren't aiming to shut down discussion on it, then stop acting like it not being viable is objective truth just because of your inability to imagine how it could work. It would be much more constructive to just say it how it is; that you personally don't see how it could work and that it would be up to others to figure that out, as opposed to outright dismissing it.

[Icarus]

I'm sorry about my last comment, I got tired because I didn't sleep enough.


Maybe the Nights mode should get a tutorial level for people who has a bit of trouble about them.

[Seaballer]

re: names

I have been extremely vocal for Zero Ring Zone (anyone remember this? kek) to be the final fight's name, maybe even with a reimagined version of MP_0RI to accompany it. Zero Ring is a very... clever name to me. Although I'll say Final Flight also sounds cool.

[Tatsuru]

Let's all remind ourselves that up to this point, this is merely a "what if" thread where people are brainstorming at most. If you think something doesn't work, state why with the goal of improving on it. If you think it works despite everything, start work on it to demonstrate. This isn't a burden-of-proof hot potato game: there is no leeway to be on each other's throats on the guise of ideas proposed here being supposedly unconceivable or uninteresting when there's nothing concrete to test out.

[time gear]

Originally Posted by OP345

It's not false, it's true. You've given me no reason to believe that it isn't true. Stating my opinion isn't an argument in the slightest. The proposals you made are still pretty easy (although we'd have to see it in gameplay for us to know for sure) overall and not as interesting as what I think would be possible in a NiGHTS-style level.

I added bold italics for additional emphasis where I think this comes down to the core of the matter. The facts are that ultimately this is a matter of personal opinion, and yet you still keep stating your own opinion as though it is objective fact, which is entirely what got us into this back and forth to begin with. All it has resulted in is both of us getting tired of it. I suggest we just agree to disagree, as it's obvious that nothing fruitful will come from further discussion between us on the subject; all it will do is result in is even more back and forth in which you insist your opinion is objective fact and I point out how incorrect that is. Then you would double down again on how your opinion is still objective fact because you aren't satisfied with my argument against it, and the cycle would continue.

[Unknownlight]

Originally Posted by Seaballer

re: names

I have been extremely vocal for Zero Ring Zone (anyone remember this? kek) to be the final fight's name, maybe even with a reimagined version of MP_0RI to accompany it. Zero Ring is a very... clever name to me. Although I'll say Final Flight also sounds cool.

Zero Ring Zone has a great ring (haha) to it, but it would be odd for a Super Sonic level where you start off with 50 rings.

If we wanted to go for super cheesy, other names could be Zero Hope Zone, or even The End Zone.

[IcyMelon]

I can see a NiGHTS Final Boss where once you Defeat Brak, Eggman Escapes and then Sonic or (Any of the Characters that can go Super) Decide to go Super and Chase them down in a NiGHTS like Final Boss trying to avoid Remains of the Death Egg?? or whatever Sonic is in for ERZ.

[time gear]

Originally Posted by OP345

No, I haven't stated it as if it were objective fact. Where did you get this idea from? All I said was that it's false and I disagree.

Well...

Originally Posted by OP345

On the contrary, a 3D final boss would have to be simplistic and easy because it requires a control scheme that the player would be unfamiliar with. With a NiGHTs style boss you don't need to make it easy, you can make it as hard as you want because you can count on the player having already mastered the control scheme (they need to in order to even collect all seven emeralds).

Originally Posted by OP345

Firstly, the level design for Super Sonic's moveset would have to very simplistic because the player would not be accustomed to using Super Sonic all that much. Super Sonic in-game is mostly used as an invincibility power up and a cool reward which lets you go super fast. Most of the preceding level design doesn't accommodate Super Sonic's speed so any sort of unique level design is going to be super easy as a result. It's also a boss fight and not some level.

Secondly, the NiGHTS special stage gameplay is the only other sort of Super Sonic-esque gameplay that can allow for some complexity and difficulty in the boss design. It is a matter of those two scenarios.

Originally Posted by OP345

Yes, his regular moveset. Players aren't used to doing anything more advanced with Super Sonic other than super thokking through the campaign levels. You wouldn't be able to make it hard (at least in an interesting way and not just give Eggman 100 lasers) and you wouldn't even know how to because you haven't built enough concepts to have a good understanding of what to do.

And you're right people will complain about the final boss being too easy but, with Super Sonic's moveset, it would have to be.

You have a tendency of stating things in a very matter of fact way. "It would have to be this way" or "This is the only thing that works like this" and etc. It comes off as you telling an objective truth when what you are actually saying isn't. This is why I keep saying to stop stating things as objective truths like this, if you are going to state something as your opinion and disagree then that's fine, but make it more clear that what you are saying is opinion instead of wording it as if you are trying to shut down discussion with "facts". That's all I'm asking for.

[time gear]

Originally Posted by OP345

It's obvious that what I'm saying isn't objective truth considering we're on a thread for speculation. I don't see a reason to restate my intentions when it's obvious to anyone who's even on this thread that it's all just opinions.

Considering we have had a multi-page argument about it, I think it's self-evident that it's not as obvious as you think it is.

[time gear]

Originally Posted by OP345

It's not my fault if you didn't know a thread on speculation would be just speculation.

It's not my fault that you're speaking in a matter of fact way in a topic that's supposed to be opinion and speculation. Anyway, that's enough. End it. We have carried this pointless back and forth on long enough.

[time gear]

Originally Posted by OP345

It's obvious this thread is for speculation. It shouldn't matter how I speak if the pretenses of this conversation are clear.

For someone that supposedly isn't interested in arguing about this, you really just can't seem to let it go. Go find a dictionary and look up what the word "stop" means, and then let's get back on topic. The argument is over. I will be participating in it no further.