Jet the Hawk (4.22.14 Update) - Babylon Rogue's Leader Returns

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* Jet should be able to bust through walls, since currently the inability to spindash restricts him from certain areas.
* Jump height should be nerfed to Knuckles height.
* This monstrosity needs to be fixed before I break somebody's limbs.
* Jet's hurt voicelines should be removed; they don't fit SRB2 at all imo, and it's Jet. Seriously. Like why would you want him to speak.

This is a cool ability, but due to his sheer speed, jumping capabilities, and invincibility frames, Jet's still clearly overpowered even after the nerf. Knuckles jump height will at least make things a little more challenging while keeping the basic idea intact.
 
* Jet should be able to bust through walls, since currently the inability to spindash restricts him from certain areas.
* Jump height should be nerfed to Knuckles height.
* This monstrosity needs to be fixed before I break somebody's limbs.
* Jet's hurt voicelines should be removed; they don't fit SRB2 at all imo, and it's Jet. Seriously. Like why would you want him to speak.

This is a cool ability, but due to his sheer speed, jumping capabilities, and invincibility frames, Jet's still clearly overpowered even after the nerf. Knuckles jump height will at least make things a little more challenging while keeping the basic idea intact.
I don't know if it's possible to add wallbreaking(if you switch the action to CA_GLIDEANDCIMB, he wouldn't be able to double jump near walls).

His normalspeed is slower than sonic's, thrustfactor is the same, accelstart is way slower and acceleration is a bit faster, same like knuckles. He doesn't have a higher jump than sonic, it's the same.

-normalspeed
-accelstart
+acceleration

His ability is the double jump, which works well because he is a bird that can't fly.

Boosting isn't op if you compare it to the spindash:

Both give you "invinciblity" while using it(the boost gives you the invinciblity, like invincibility powerup, which should be changed so it's like the spindash)

Spindash gives a lot of speed if you charge it, you can use it any time to roll.

Boost can be activated at any time and gives you speed, but you can't use it forever, it's only for a few seconds.

Not all of the sprites are finished and they are still the old 2.0 ones.

I don't like the hurt voices too, maybe add a voiceless version ?
 
* Jet should be able to bust through walls, since currently the inability to spindash restricts him from certain areas.
* Jump height should be nerfed to Knuckles height.
* This monstrosity needs to be fixed before I break somebody's limbs.
* Jet's hurt voicelines should be removed; they don't fit SRB2 at all imo, and it's Jet. Seriously. Like why would you want him to speak.

This is a cool ability, but due to his sheer speed, jumping capabilities, and invincibility frames, Jet's still clearly overpowered even after the nerf. Knuckles jump height will at least make things a little more challenging while keeping the basic idea intact.

1. Forcing spin frames would break the wad in numerous ways that I would not like to explain. Not an issue in my view since you can complete the game without spindashing.
2. That would effectively strip him of an ability(he'd be restricted to about Sonic's jump height) and make the speed boost the only usable thing about him.
3. Since the creator of this wad is only a scripter, those frames are left in from the original. The sprite set will receive updates in the future however so that will hopefully be removed.
4. I agree wholeheartedly. Voice clips aren't necessary.

I agree that the way the invincibility frames work now makes Jet quite overpowered in certain situations, which is why the invincibility frames run out sooner. As for jump height, I say it should stay the same and an ability other than double jump should be considered.


Thanks for your input though!
 
I don't know if it's possible to add wallbreaking(if you switch the action to CA_GLIDEANDCIMB, he wouldn't be able to double jump near walls).

Maybe what could be done is to force spin for 1 frame, or Jet can spawn an object which busts those specific walls. It's true that he can complete the official campaign as is, but in order to do so, he needs to use the oil factory passage in ACZ1, and if he uses the starting right path in ERZ1, he screws himself. Additionally, the inability to spindash may screw with his compatibility with custom level packs.

His normalspeed is slower than sonic's, thrustfactor is the same, accelstart is way slower and acceleration is a bit faster, same like knuckles. He doesn't have a higher jump than sonic, it's the same.

His ability is the double jump, which works well because he is a bird that can't fly.

His stats aren't the source of his speed, the dash is. I don't have any problem with that, he's obviously meant to be a speedrun character, but he doesn't need such good jumping capabilities if he's also going to have invincibility frames. You must not have tested his jump, because it's definitely higher than Sonic's. Jet's cool with a double jump or a boosted jump height, but not both; it gives him too much safety in combination with his invincibility frames and lets him access routes that clearly aren't meant for him (AGZ's Knuckles path is a good example).

Boosting isn't op if you compare it to the spindash:

Both give you "invinciblity" while using it(the boost gives you the invinciblity, like invincibility powerup, which should be changed so it's like the spindash)

Spindash gives a lot of speed if you charge it, you can use it any time to roll.

Boost can be activated at any time and gives you speed, but you can't use it forever, it's only for a few seconds.

The spindash's damage ability is not comparable to boost. Jet can use the boost to dash through enemies, projectiles, level hazards... Invincibility in general is pretty damn powerful, the only reason it's acceptable here is because there's such a short frame to use it in between cooldowns. Speedwise, it's a clear upgrade from spindash, because you can boost then jump to give yourself constant speed. It's basically the equivalent of a ground thok, and then you have an actual jump ability on top of that.

If you think the boost is balanced against the spindash, change Jet to use spindash instead of the boost, and see how long it takes for Jet to beat the Metal Sonic race. If you're playing right both ways, I guarantee you the boost Jet will beat the everliving snot out of spindash Jet.

For the record, I'm not suggesting dash be nerfed, because it's a cool ability, and Jet being centralized around it makes him interesting. I just want to see his jump balanced around that so that the main levels aren't so easy.

Not all of the sprites are finished and they are still the old 2.0 ones.

That's fine, just replace the ball frames with one of Jet's fall or hurt frames or something. I just don't want to see that ugly meme in my face whenever I'm in a zoomtube.
 
* Jet should be able to bust through walls, since currently the inability to spindash restricts him from certain areas.
* Jump height should be nerfed to Knuckles height.
* This monstrosity needs to be fixed before I break somebody's limbs.
* Jet's hurt voicelines should be removed; they don't fit SRB2 at all imo, and it's Jet. Seriously. Like why would you want him to speak.

This is a cool ability, but due to his sheer speed, jumping capabilities, and invincibility frames, Jet's still clearly overpowered even after the nerf. Knuckles jump height will at least make things a little more challenging while keeping the basic idea intact.
Right now I'm currently not sure how to make it so Jet's Boost allows him to break Blocks so he can get Emerald Tokens, I know for a fact that Eggman can do this, but I think that's because Katmint just gave Eggman the Glide ability but since he can't technically "jump", it's primary use is breaking blocks.
I'll see what I can do about this in the future.
As for Jump Height, well IDK.
I didn't touch any of the 2.0 sprites as of now, so other than aligning the sprites a lot more properly, nothing has been changed.
MotorRoach does plan on fixing up a couple sprites, the Character Select and Signpost, but I don't think he really has the time to finish ALL Jet's sprites. I'll try to get someone who can really sprite to properly remove the Awesome Face meme. Either that or I could ask if I could borrow Greeneyes' Jump Animation for Jet (Which in that was originally AH-Sonic's).
As for voice clips, that can easily just be removed, so I'll consider it most.
 
Keep in mind, with Knuckles jump height and double jump, his jump is basically still better than Sonic's, and you can use it to make platforming easier all the same.
 
Greeneyes' Jump Animation for Jet (Which in that was originally AH-Sonic's)

Hell fucking no. Get your facts straight. AH-Sonic is a fucking shitty ripoff of SonicCE which does nothing but give him a homing attack, stupid and un-needed sound effects and taunts, way too much speed and a darker blue. Don't you dare try to say those sprites come from AH-Sonic.
 
Maybe what could be done is to force spin for 1 frame, or Jet can spawn an object which busts those specific walls. It's true that he can complete the official campaign as is, but in order to do so, he needs to use the oil factory passage in ACZ1, and if he uses the starting right path in ERZ1, he screws himself. Additionally, the inability to spindash may screw with his compatibility with custom level packs.
Sounds like a good way to get it working. An other problem is the no roll, you can't get everywhere with it and some custom levels need it(I was thinking about a slide action, but I'll probably create a lua for that).

His stats aren't the source of his speed, the dash is. I don't have any problem with that, he's obviously meant to be a speedrun character, but he doesn't need such good jumping capabilities if he's also going to have invincibility frames. You must not have tested his jump, because it's definitely higher than Sonic's. Jet's cool with a double jump or a boosted jump height, but not both; it gives him too much safety in combination with his invincibility frames and lets him access routes that clearly aren't meant for him (AGZ's Knuckles path is a good example).
I'd change the invinciblity to spindash invinciblity, so you can still get hit by projectiles and aren't fully invincible. I checked the S_SKIN and it didn't have something about extra jump height. That's fitting for jet because he is a bird, so he is going to have a good air move.

The spindash's damage ability is not comparable to boost. Jet can use the boost to dash through enemies, projectiles, level hazards... Invincibility in general is pretty damn powerful, the only reason it's acceptable here is because there's such a short frame to use it in between cooldowns. Speedwise, it's a clear upgrade from spindash, because you can boost then jump to give yourself constant speed. It's basically the equivalent of a ground thok, and then you have an actual jump ability on top of that.
What if the invinciblity was the same as the spindash one ?
If you think the boost is balanced against the spindash, change Jet to use spindash instead of the boost, and see how long it takes for Jet to beat the Metal Sonic race. If you're playing right both ways, I guarantee you the boost Jet will beat the everliving snot out of spindash Jet.
Spindash can't be used that well for speed because you need to charge it up, but you can keep spinning to keep the invinciblity and release it at any time instead of only using it for a short time.

For the record, I'm not suggesting dash be nerfed, because it's a cool ability, and Jet being centralized around it makes him interesting. I just want to see his jump balanced around that so that the main levels aren't so easy.
Keep in mind, with Knuckles jump height and double jump, his jump is basically still better than Sonic's, and you can use it to make platforming easier all the same.

He is a bird, so his air move should be good.
 
You don't seem to understand what the word "invincibility" means. Spindash does not give you invincibility. It makes you damage enemies. That is an incredibly big difference, so please acknowledge it.

Removing Jet's invincibility would single-handedly balance him (actually it wouldn't, he'd still be as good as Sonic speedwise but a way better platformer), but I'm not suggesting it because it's the only particular reason I like the character. I would personally rather see him balanced in a way that keeps him fun rather than see him balanced in a way that keeps him thematically correct.
 
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You don't seem to understand what the word "invincibility" means. Spindash does not give you invincibility. It makes you damage enemies. That is an incredibly big difference, so please acknowledge it.

Removing Jet's invincibility would single-handedly balance him (actually it wouldn't, he'd still be as good as Sonic speedwise but a way better platformer), but I'm not suggesting it because it's the only particular reason I like the character. I would personally rather see him balanced in a way that keeps him fun rather than see him balanced in a way that keeps him thematically correct.
I know, that's why I said spindash invinciblity(which damages enemies). If jet had that, he would be somewhat more balanced.
 
Hmm....He feels like he's missing a little something. Not quite sure what, though. Maybe just a few more/better Sprite tweaks will do it for me...

Anyway, he's fun to use. The fact that his dash can't bust monitors (or go into small spaces) is a great weakness, as is his inability to hold a dash in place (helps me SO much with the Red Birds), and the brief moments of vulnerability between dashes is a GREAT thing. I like it a LOT.

My only real gripe is that whirlwind shields are worthless on him. Here I was hoping for a triple jump. XD

IMO, this is 4.5 stars, with the .5 being conditional on a few more tweaks and improvements.
 
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