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Old 12-17-2019   #41
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Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
The actual reason is that one of the big flaws of S3K's setup is that super forms removed character variety. When you go super in S3K, all characters need to go fast while collecting rings. It's preferred to avoid using your abilities as much as possible because they slow you down.
I always thought it was a purist thing... or that going super was a reward for playing as a more difficult character. I never thought about it in terms of gameplay variety, but it's a good point.

One of my favorite things about Mania is that I need to press a different button to go super because super ends up being very restrictive in S3K eventually and it gives me time to hoard rings. Typically I always remembered going super in S3K was always very temporary unless I had an electric shield or a large stockpile, and I spent most of my time trying to make sure the timer didn't run out in the worst possible place. As such it was more of a novelty.

If the team ever tried to tackle giving each player a unique super form, I'd be interested in seeing how you end up approaching them.
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Old 12-17-2019   #42
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If I recall correctly, s3k had bonus stages that helped with turning super off and resuppling your rings too. Despite that not being ideal, it worked.
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Old 12-17-2019   #43
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Here's the key difference with music: it's not part of the lore of the world. It is nothing more than something to set the mood properly, the characters are not supposed to actually be hearing it within the world.
This is kind of an off-tangent, but while music technically isn't part of the story's physical world (generally speaking), there are still rules for how it should follow along with the story. It's not just about setting the mood -- if you've ever hear of a "leitmotif", it's a melodic idea that is used or repeated throughout a score to signify or symbolize something. Star Wars does this everywhere, with its main theme, the empire theme, the theme of Luke Skywalker's struggle and resolve, etc. Leitmotifs need to be used carefully to tie story events together, but abuse of the leitmotif diminishes its meaning.



I don't think we have to do Super exactly in the way the classics did it, but it does have to follow some sort of internal consistent logic. The question is just what exactly that logic should be.
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Old 12-18-2019   #44
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Honestly you just proved my point for me, so I don't really need to give any examples. I will later in this post though, sorta. By your own admission here, super forms are so inconsistent that they don't even function the same in boss fights designed around them as they do in the actual levels. You mentioned earlier that Super Forms can fly in most of their bosses, but in regular gameplay typically cannot (The closest I can think of is the autopathing in Generations). The ring drain amount is also inconsistent in Generations, being 1 ring per second in the boss but 3 rings per second in gameplay.

As for my promised examples, I can't give any regarding Super Forms losing rings aside from their typical drain in levels aside from maybe the smoke in Oil Ocean Act 2 in Mania, it's been a while since I have played Mania so I forget if that smoke still drains rings even while you are Super.

I can give many examples of Super forms being crushed in levels however, it's possible in Sonic 2, Sonic 3&K, Sonic Mania, pretty much any game where you can go Super in levels and there are things that could potentially crush you.
"you just provided examples for me so I don't have to." Bad logic right there as you don't explain the example.

Consistency requires context. In level, super follows rules based on this simple formula.

that's all super really is.

But for Final Boss Fights, super Sonic is allowed to follow special rules. Rules where if a battle takes place in a void, in space, in the planet's core, or even in the sky, super sonic can fly. (S3K, Pocket Adventure, Adventure 2, Heroes, advance 2, Advance 3, Rush, Rush Adventure, Colors DS, 06, Unleashed, Generations, Mania*)

Sometimes there will be a final boss fight where Super sonic won't fly, but in these fights you're clearly on the gound or on water. (Sonic Adventure, Sonic Advance 1, Sonic Lost World 3ds [requires 50 rings to be collected first], Mania*)

Also I checked and you don't loose extra rings in Mania's OOz2 with all that smoke as super.
https://twitter.com/suroguner/status...95983160487936

[*Mania is unique in that it's a void fight that has land for you to stand on, and you can fly too]

As for being able to be crushed while super. You can get crushed even with basic invincibility too.
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Old 12-18-2019   #45
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"you just provided examples for me so I don't have to." Bad logic right there as you don't explain the example.
If you read properly, I did though. I explained later in my post, even though I technically didn't have to.

The rest of your post almost entirely chalks up to just obvious things everyone already knows about how Super Forms work as a game mechanic in a traditional sense. If you had been paying attention to the point I have been making over and over and over and over again, these gameplay mechanics don't necessarily need to be the case when designing super forms in a fangame, especially when the game mechanics in said fangame take place in full 3D and focus on an entirely different type of gameplay than the games you are sourcing when playing as characters other than Sonic.

All of the games that let you play as Super forms within levels are either entirely 2D, or are Modern Sonic style Boost games (Even Lost World, which even literally replaces Spindash with Boost when you transform) which have hallway type level design. The overall goal in these games is to get to the goal as fast as possible, and Super Sonic is designed to assist in doing so.

In SRB2, characters such as Tails and Amy are focused more on exploration or combat, rather than merely having a harder time getting to the goal. It makes perfect sense from a design standpoint that traits that would make them "Super" wouldn't be focused on speed like Super Sonic is. Despite this, you seem to be entirely caught up in the mentality of "Here is how Super works everywhere else, so SRB2 absolutely must be restricted to it working that way for all characters in all situations."

What I have been trying to tell you this whole time is that this isn't necessarily the case, nor is it necessarily the best way to handle it. If you take Amy for example, and all you do is make it so she can take more hits and has a better hammer, this complements her gameplay style more than just making her invincible and forcing her to rush to the finish like Sonic. It is different, sure, but different isn't always a bad thing and there's zero canonical substance to other characters Super Forms being unable to work this way.

If the internal consistent logic to Super Forms is that they boost your abilities to bring out the best in you, then invincibility and a speed boost to blaze through everything compliments Sonic the same way a wider, stronger attack compliments Amy.
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Old 12-18-2019   #46
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I think the core issue here is in attempting to match player expectations while also creating something that works well for SRB2's gameplay.

Invincibility is not a good fit for Amy and Fang because it would totally disincentivize the use of their abilities. So you would either have to not give them super or you would have to change how super works for them. Those are basically the two choices you're presented with.

I think it's possible to balance Fang and Amy super by perhaps giving them "faux-invincibility" where they will recoil when colliding with a hurtbox but won't lose rings or anything. Perhaps making the ring-drain slower might help compensate for this invincibility nerf without completely circumventing the formula.
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Old 12-18-2019   #47
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Thus, the characters are mostly going to be approaching the same obstacles as everyone else, and if the answer of how to approach those obstacles is always the same, why play as another character to begin with?
To...play as...a character you visually or emotionally enjoy? Contrary to what this argument seems to say, characters are more than just functions to people.

I fail to see how this is even an argument at all.

"I want to play as Tails and also be allowed to go Super."
That's about all the people asking want. They don't care if Super homogenizes every character's game plan. They want to play as the character they like and be allowed to go Super.
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Old 12-18-2019   #48
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If you read properly, I did though. I explained later in my post, even though I technically didn't have to.

The rest of your post almost entirely chalks up to just obvious things everyone already knows about how Super Forms work as a game mechanic in a traditional sense. If you had been paying attention to the point I have been making over and over and over and over again, these gameplay mechanics don't necessarily need to be the case when designing super forms in a fangame, especially when the game mechanics in said fangame take place in full 3D and focus on an entirely different type of gameplay than the games you are sourcing when playing as characters other than Sonic.

All of the games that let you play as Super forms within levels are either entirely 2D, or are Modern Sonic style Boost games (Even Lost World, which even literally replaces Spindash with Boost when you transform) which have hallway type level design. The overall goal in these games is to get to the goal as fast as possible, and Super Sonic is designed to assist in doing so.

In SRB2, characters such as Tails and Amy are focused more on exploration or combat, rather than merely having a harder time getting to the goal. It makes perfect sense from a design standpoint that traits that would make them "Super" wouldn't be focused on speed like Super Sonic is. Despite this, you seem to be entirely caught up in the mentality of "Here is how Super works everywhere else, so SRB2 absolutely must be restricted to it working that way for all characters in all situations."

What I have been trying to tell you this whole time is that this isn't necessarily the case, nor is it necessarily the best way to handle it. If you take Amy for example, and all you do is make it so she can take more hits and has a better hammer, this complements her gameplay style more than just making her invincible and forcing her to rush to the finish like Sonic. It is different, sure, but different isn't always a bad thing and there's zero canonical substance to other characters Super Forms being unable to work this way.

If the internal consistent logic to Super Forms is that they boost your abilities to bring out the best in you, then invincibility and a speed boost to blaze through everything compliments Sonic the same way a wider, stronger attack compliments Amy.
Name me a fan game that successfully subverts a player's expectation of the chaos emeralds granting Super then.

Yes most fangames that allow super everyone are usually 2D, but how many 3d fangames ever get to the same completion level as SRB2?

Speaking of such, 3d fangame Sonic world, has both Super Tails and Super Knuckles in it, as well as other super characters too!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On_e7eGvDik

I have recorded video of the super everyone addon in use with both Tails and Kunckles, and while I do go out of my way for rings, you also see me in the video still using the character abilities while super.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/KQduryGU1yHJ/

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I think the core issue here is in attempting to match player expectations while also creating something that works well for SRB2's gameplay.

Invincibility is not a good fit for Amy and Fang because it would totally disincentivize the use of their abilities. So you would either have to not give them super or you would have to change how super works for them. Those are basically the two choices you're presented with.

I think it's possible to balance Fang and Amy super by perhaps giving them "faux-invincibility" where they will recoil when colliding with a hurtbox but won't lose rings or anything. Perhaps making the ring-drain slower might help compensate for this invincibility nerf without completely circumventing the formula.
I believe it's possible to enhance Amy and Knack even with invincibility.
Base Amy already does a little hop when hammering. So why not make Super amy's Hammer attack into her Hammer jump? give her more mobility in exchange for otherwise making the hammer near useless aside from breaking floors and walls?

As for Knack, Make his tail jump Slide instead of having it temp stop him? You could also give him rapid fire corks or allow him to shoot while moving so he doesn't have to stop to "pop a badnik or monator"
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Last edited by glaber; 12-18-2019 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 12-18-2019   #49
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SRB2 isn't Sonic World. It follows a very different design mentality. There's absolutely no reason why SRB2 should be limited to doing things the way Sonic World does. By that logic, they should also start porting in official levels like Emerald Coast and add in abilities like the Homing Attack to Sonic's official moveset.

SRB2 is a game that follows a very unique design mentality compared to literally everything else, whether it be fanmade or official. Can you give me even one decent reason why all of the characters in SRB2 should have super forms that work like Super Sonic without just resorting to bandwagon mentality of "Because everyone else is doing it that way too!"?
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Old 12-18-2019   #50
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Hey guys, tone it down several notches. I get that you have strong feelings about this issue, but remember that the goal isn't to dismantle your opponent; it's to try to explain your point of view to others and also understand their point of view.
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To...play as...a character you visually or emotionally enjoy? Contrary to what this argument seems to say, characters are more than just functions to people.

I fail to see how this is even an argument at all.

"I want to play as Tails and also be allowed to go Super."
That's about all the people asking want. They don't care if Super homogenizes every character's game plan. They want to play as the character they like and be allowed to go Super.
I get that. The problem is that there are contradictory desires, and one size simply does not fit all here. I have to make a decision based on what makes for the best video game, not what makes a portion of the audience temporarily happier. I am of the opinion that while people may be disappointed that they cannot go super as their favorite character, having a diverse roster makes the game better enough to justify that disappointment.

No matter what I say or do, I assure you that somebody will not be happy. Literally every change we have ever made has made at least someone unhappy, even things that are overwhelmingly praised like Lua support or slopes. As game designers it is our job to weigh the pros and cons of all the options available to us and make a decision that we believe is ultimately the best one for the game. It's important to try to take a step back and look at the bigger picture and try to understand the other side, even if you don't agree with them.
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Old 12-18-2019   #51
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To clarify, I wouldn't complain at all if Super Forms for everyone were implemented that just worked like Super Sonic. A speed boost, invincibility, and ring drain. I'm simply trying to make that point that if the reason why everyone doesn't have super forms right now is because that sort of a transformation doesn't work well within SRB2's game design, then there's no harm in simply changing things up a bit to make them work within the context of why each character is playable to begin with. I would rather have Super Forms that aren't invincible than no Super Forms at all.
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Old 12-18-2019   #52
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Originally Posted by time gear View Post
SRB2 isn't Sonic World. It follows a very different design mentality. There's absolutely no reason why SRB2 should be limited to doing things the way Sonic World does. By that logic, they should also start porting in official levels like Emerald Coast and add in abilities like the Homing Attack to Sonic's official moveset.

SRB2 is a game that follows a very unique design mentality compared to literally everything else, whether it be fanmade or official. Can you give me even one decent reason why all of the characters in SRB2 should have super forms that work like Super Sonic without just resorting to bandwagon mentality of "Because everyone else is doing it that way too!"?
Again, The basic formula for Super is When fan game or official game deviates from this it's noticed and if given the ability, the fans will mod the game to fix Super to work according to the formula.
This is also partly why this mod exists for SRB2: https://mb.srb2.org/showthread.php?t=45712

You are right that SRB2 is not Sonic World, but as you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by time gear View Post
All of the games that let you play as Super forms within levels are either entirely 2D, or are Modern Sonic style Boost games (Even Lost World, which even literally replaces Spindash with Boost when you transform) which have hallway type level design. The overall goal in these games is to get to the goal as fast as possible, and Super Sonic is designed to assist in doing so.
But since when has Super anybody ever not been designed to assist in getting to the end of a stage?

It should be brought up that the Fangame Sonic World is not boost based either. It, Like SRB2, Is Spindash based, and it too also has a Super Sonic that grants super sonic the ability to hover just like he does in SRB2.
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Old 12-18-2019   #53
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Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
The problem is that there are contradictory desires, and one size simply does not fit all here. I have to make a decision based on what makes for the best video game, not what makes a portion of the audience temporarily happier. I am of the opinion that while people may be disappointed that they cannot go super as their favorite character, having a diverse roster makes the game better enough to justify that disappointment.

No matter what I say or do, I assure you that somebody will not be happy. Literally every change we have ever made has made at least someone unhappy, even things that are overwhelmingly praised like Lua support or slopes. As game designers it is our job to weigh the pros and cons of all the options available to us and make a decision that we believe is ultimately the best one for the game. It's important to try to take a step back and look at the bigger picture and try to understand the other side, even if you don't agree with them.
I'm not entirely sure I fully understand this, so my apologies if I misconstrue this in some way, but what I take away from this is that just because some people will always be unhappy, that you must always take matters into your own hands? Something along those lines, at least.

If so, I can't say I agree with that sentiment, as yes, there will always be people who will complain. There is indeed nothing you can do about this, but if a majority of people clearly don't agree with your viewpoint, you shouldn't just... ignore them entirely.

If I'm missing something though, then again, I apologize.
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Old 12-18-2019   #54
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I can't say I fully understand the reasoning behind Metal getting a super form in 2.2. For years I just accepted Sonic being the only one to transform because he is the hardest character to use of the main trio, and it lets him have main character perks too. Metal on the other hand already controls very similarly to Super Sonic, except his hover ability is much better and more spammable at low speeds. And he has a boost mode which makes him faster than anyone else on the ground and invulnerable too. If anything I think Metal has far less reason to go super than the other characters, even Amy.


At the end of the day though it's not really a big deal to me, since I don't use super forms often in Sonic games anymore. And if I really wanted to use other super characters, there's always mods. But I don't think it'd hurt to give super forms to other characters nearly as much as some people think. It's just a fun Dragon Ball Z parody mode to cut loose and do all kinds of wacky shit for fun, not a feature that requires a high amount of careful game balancing.

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Old 12-18-2019   #55
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Again, The basic formula for Super is When fan game or official game deviates from this it's noticed and if given the ability, the fans will mod the game to fix Super to work according to the formula.
This is also partly why this mod exists for SRB2: https://mb.srb2.org/showthread.php?t=45712

You are right that SRB2 is not Sonic World, but as you said:

But since when has Super anybody ever not been designed to assist in getting to the end of a stage?

It should be brought up that the Fangame Sonic World is not boost based either. It, Like SRB2, Is Spindash based, and it too also has a Super Sonic that grants super sonic the ability to hover just like he does in SRB2.
I feel like you are trapped in a mentality of something needing to have been done before for SRB2 to do it. This is not the case. SRB2 is designed around what works, not around what is standard. The fact that the controls are a major point of controversy right now is evidence enough of this point.

Sonic World may not be a boost game, but it still follows the mentality of keeping up speed to complete levels as fast as possible, regardless of who you are playing as. Sonic 2 isn't a boost game, but it still follows that same mentality. You don't go Super unless you are intending on going fast, because that's what the mechanic is based around.

SRB2 is also designed to be completed quickly by a skilled player... When playing as Sonic or Metal. If you insist on it, you can speedrun as other characters too, but their gameplay isn't designed around that type of playstyle.

What I'm trying to say, and have been trying to say over and over, and what you don't seem to be getting, is that my entire point is that there's no reason a character like Amy should require that their super form function like Sonic's or not exist at all.

The given statement on why characters like Amy and Tails and Knuckles can't go Super in SRB2 right now is because they aren't speed characters like Sonic, and so using such a form is contrary to their design. SRB2 is way more open ended in level structure than even fangames like Sonic World, filled to the brim with branching pathways for specific characters to take or choose from, hidden collectables, etc. It's designed around having control of the camera at all times, looking not only around you, but even occasionally up and down.

The entire point of my suggestion is to find a fair compromise that would allow characters like Amy to be able to use a Super Form without it going contrary to their playstyle. If you make Amy and Fang invincible, what's the point of them not curling up into a ball when they jump? If you make Tails fast like Super Sonic, why even ever play as Sonic?

Super Sonic compliments Sonic because it's a buff to his existing playstyle. That sort of Super Form applied to Amy would make her hammer pointless and change her from a slower, more deliberate character into just Sonic without a thok. That's why I am trying to find a compromise here, because I would rather have Supers that aren't invincible than not have them at all.
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Old 12-19-2019   #56
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If you make Amy and Fang invincible, what's the point of them not curling up into a ball when they jump? If you make Tails fast like Super Sonic, why even ever play as Sonic?
Why even collect the Emeralds if they don't do anything except for the Sonics? Why even hunt for tokens? Why even explore? If you're not playing as Sonic you might as well just rush through every level, fight the final boss and the most you'll be missing is a cute cutscene. It shouldn't take long until you realize that you're looking at the wrong incentives and forgetting about the ones that started this discussion to being with.

Super forms are optional: you don't need to use them. They're temporary. They are supposed to make up for at least some of the players' weaknesses as a reward. They can't and won't necessarily affect gameplay negatively. This isn't analog where you seek a seemingly better but unknowingly worse way to control the game out of solace from an unexpected control scheme: people know what to expect from a super form in a Sonic game. S3&K was not a bad game because of them and SRB2 has even less chances of becoming one because of a myriad of reasons. The last levels of the game are finally in active development and it would definitely not hurt to design them to also endanger super players. It's completely understandable if the manpower to accomodate them just isn't there, but if all the reasons that are put forward are "all characters is the same" and "but S3&K" I can just take a no.

Also, if Fang ever gets a super form, or if one of you reading this decide to make one, it should be just his Marvelous Queen. He doesn't need to flash or blink or anything. Just ol' Fang and his airbike. It's canon, even, he lives in Special Stages and races Sonic and Tails riding it. He could maybe run over enemies smaller than him and have some other movement buff but that's all. Thank you.
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Old 12-19-2019   #57
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@Timegear
There's a reason I don't get it. I don't want it! I want Super, not Pseudo Super!

So what if the other characters arn't Speed characters? Does that mean they shouldn't even get speed shoes?

Metal Sonic is already a Pseudo Super Sonic without a Thok. Even when he goes super in SRB2, he doesn't gain a thok. He retains his move set from before the transformation.


The argument that super forms remove character variety is itself a fallacy that leads to ad hominem Rebuttals. In S3K itself, Ignoring the flikies, Super Tails gets a flying speed boost that complements his play style. Super Knuckles gets a gliding Acceleration boost and a speed boost in climbing walls witch complements the way he plays.
Sonic only gets Invincibility and a speed Boost because his gameplay is just that basic form. SRB2 and Sonic World Both are the only games I know of that allow you to hover as Super Sonic in a level.

Even when it comes to characters like Amy and Fang, I already gave suggestion for how to handle them without getting rid of invincibility!
Quote:
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I believe it's possible to enhance Amy and Knack even with invincibility.
Base Amy already does a little hop when hammering. So why not make Super amy's Hammer attack into her Hammer jump? give her more mobility in exchange for otherwise making the hammer near useless aside from breaking floors and walls?

As for Knack, Make his tail jump Slide instead of having it temp stop him? You could also give him rapid fire corks or allow him to shoot while moving so he doesn't have to stop to "pop a badnik or monator"
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Old 12-19-2019   #58
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Originally Posted by Ikkarou Tatsuru View Post
Why even collect the Emeralds if they don't do anything except for the Sonics? Why even hunt for tokens? Why even explore? If you're not playing as Sonic you might as well just rush through every level, fight the final boss and the most you'll be missing is a cute cutscene. It shouldn't take long until you realize that you're looking at the wrong incentives and forgetting about the ones that started this discussion to being with.

Super forms are optional: you don't need to use them. They're temporary. They are supposed to make up for at least some of the players' weaknesses as a reward
I'm confused. I have never been trying to make a case against super forms, nor against them being optional, nor against them being a buff.

I would actually go so far as to say that in the game's current state, Super is only optional at all if you are Sonic or Metal. In any other case base form is mandatory, the option isn't even there. Super Forms are the incentive for going after the emeralds at all. If you aren't Sonic or Metal, or playing with someone who is, there's no point.

I'm entirely in favor therefore of everyone having access to Supers as a reward for collecting the emeralds. If you don't want to, you don't have to, but if you do then it's there. My intention from the start was merely an attempt to find a way to allow for this that is in line with the official reasoning for why they currently don't have the option.

Nothing that I have suggested operates as any sort of debuff to the characters. Things such as Amy having a stronger, further reaching hammer and Knuckles having Multi-Glide are flat buffs to a characters moveset, and even being able to lose a certain amount of rings getting hit as a Super Form is something that has occurred before in the games. This does not contradict the logic of what a Super Form is.

It seems as though everyone replying to me is under the impression that a Super Form is only a Super Form if it has total and complete invincibility to everything, but that simply isn't always the case even in the official games. I will admit I have never seen a Super Form that doesn't experience ring drain, but that doesn't mean it couldn't exist for a character such as Amy. As far as I know Amy has never even had a canonical Super Form, so anything could be possible really.

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The argument that super forms remove character variety is itself a fallacy that leads to ad hominem Rebuttals. In S3K itself, Ignoring the flikies, Super Tails gets a flying speed boost that complements his play style. Super Knuckles gets a gliding Acceleration boost and a speed boost in climbing walls witch complements the way he plays.
Sonic only gets Invincibility and a speed Boost because his gameplay is just that basic form. SRB2 and Sonic World Both are the only games I know of that allow you to hover as Super Sonic in a level.
My own suggestions for Tails and Knuckles involved them gaining speed while using their respective abilities. I'm not sure what exactly you are arguing against by making this point.

S3K is a great game, and the Supers within it reflect it's design quite well. Collecting the Emeralds is largely the primary incentive for exploring the levels at all. By the time you have access to your Super, getting to the end of the level is more your primary objective, so the forms being based on speed makes sense within this context.

In SRB2, collecting the emeralds is only one incentive for exploration. There is also the emblems, which unlock things such as bonus levels and ways to find more emblems. Characters such as Tails and Knuckles therefore now have more reason than ever before to slow down and explore, and to continue doing so even after they have all the emeralds. Some players will just want to get to the end of the level as fast as possible, and my suggestions do help with that. Even with Amy, who wouldn't get a speed boost at all, would have an easier time dealing with enemies while transformed and could launch herself much further with springs.

More importantly however, the forms would also act as an assistance with the playstyle they already have, based around exploration. By designing the forms in this way, you accommodate both for speedrunners and for those who wish to use the forms without needing to rush to the finish, as opposed to just making them like Super Sonic in which case there's a heavy bias in favor of speedrunners. Designing them like that doesn't do a lot to help those who just want to use them to more easily explore the levels and collect emblems, and also limits the pathways you can efficiently take to the ones with easiest time keeping up your ring count.

I also disagree with the entire notion that these wouldn't be true Super Forms. They would do the same thing for every character as they do for Sonic: Boost the potential of what they are already best at.
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Old 12-19-2019   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by time gear View Post
I'm entirely in favor therefore of everyone having access to Supers as a reward for collecting the emeralds. If you don't want to, you don't have to, but if you do then it's there. My intention from the start was merely an attempt to find a way to allow for this that is in line with the official reasoning for why they currently don't have the option.
I just wanted to quote your perceived incentives since they align with that official reasoning because I think that that reasoning not only does not hold any water but is also irrelevant, which is why it might just be better if reasons are not provided full stop.
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Last edited by Tatsuru; 12-19-2019 at 01:15 AM. Reason: minecraft
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Old 12-19-2019   #60
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Maybe perhaps the best way to continue this topic is to recommend people go try out that Super For all mod in the addons section and build from there?
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