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Old 12-15-2019   #1
CowboyJoseph64
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Default Why can only Sonic and Metal turn super?

It's probably a little silly making an entire thread for this, but I don't quite see any appropriate thread to add on to, and trying to search for an answer in the discord wasn't yielding very good results.

It just seems incredibly strange to me, because at the very least, knuckles could always turn super with all chaos emeralds.
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Old 12-15-2019   #2
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Because "if other characters could become super, they wouldn't be unique anymore as their entire gameplay would null and void as you'd need to collect rings to maintain your super form"

Ignoring the fact that having a temporary speed buff, both to movement and special abilities, would be very helpful. Especially if you were going to be doing some long emblem hunting. It would be nice to have infinite Tails flight while super and faster flight to find emblems in stages, or climbing faster as Knuckles, etc. etc.

Even though going faster and going invincible might be the only buff some characters might have, I would still consider it something worth having. But I digress.

If you want super you're going to have to download and install a lua that allows you to do so (without being able to modify your save) or have all 200 emblems for pandora's box so going super is pointless anyways.


Basically, we're never going to get it any time soon (if at all).

Last edited by Eliwood; 12-15-2019 at 07:33 AM.
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Old 12-15-2019   #3
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Originally Posted by Eliwood View Post
Because "if other characters could become super, they wouldn't be unique anymore as their entire gameplay would null and void as you'd need to collect rings to maintain your super form"

Ignoring the fact that having a temporary speed buff, both to movement and special abilities, would be very helpful. Especially if you were going to be doing some long emblem hunting. It would be nice to have infinite Tails flight while super and faster flight to find emblems in stages, or climbing faster as Knuckles, etc. etc.
Not to mention people could easily just not turn super if they didn't want to. That certainly is strange reasoning, but I very much appreciate getting a solid answer at least.
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Old 12-15-2019   #4
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IIRC, the justification for it only being Sonic before was that he was the hardest character; so therefor, he gets rewarded with a super form. Which makes sense.
Doesn't make sense anymore, since Metal also gets a super form, despite his hover ability making him one of the easier characters...and the introduction of a character that you'd struggle to not describe as a hard mode being introduced, while also not having a super form: Amy.
So at this point it really seems arbitrary to me, besides "well Sonic's the main character so...he gets it. And Metal Sonic is a metal clone-ish version of Sonic so he gets it too."
*shrug*
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Old 12-15-2019   #5
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The actual reason is that one of the big flaws of S3K's setup is that super forms removed character variety. When you go super in S3K, all characters need to go fast while collecting rings. It's preferred to avoid using your abilities as much as possible because they slow you down. This basically makes S3K have four characters: Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Super. When you play all-emerald runs you initially start with unique character abilities but then end up with everything the same by the end of the run. This ruins the whole fun of having unique characters to begin with.

You'll notice that Sonic and Metal's SRB2 toolkit overlap with a core theme: going fast. Super does not disrupt that gameplay because you were likely already trying to do that, thus it enhances the toolkit they already had and gives them a new way to do what they were already doing. The other characters in the game are not designed around going fast. They have abilities that encourage other behavior, and if we gave them super then we'd just have the same issue S3K has where everyone becomes the same once you get the emeralds.

Something we've occasionally discussed in the past is giving the other characters completely different perks for getting all the emeralds, but this isn't a high priority so even if we decide we want to do that, it'd be a long time before we could implement it. In the meantime, though, I really don't want to ruin the character variety SRB2 has, and thus, I strongly disagree with the idea of adding super to other characters in vanilla. If you'd like to mess around with super as other characters, you'll need to mod the game.

Last edited by Mystic; 12-16-2019 at 12:36 PM. Reason: Stupid grammar mistake I dunno how I missed the first time
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Old 12-15-2019   #6
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This is something I see asked so often it might as well just have it's own "FAQ" or something. That way it would reduce the amount of times people have to ask about it. Kinda like people asking about Holdfly. The answer is still no, even if it's been on record before being stated as "objectively better." You're going to get hand cramps and you're going to like it!

I understand where the sense of losing identity for super goes, I don't think it hurts the gameplay as much as you feel it does? Even when I was playing the classic games, going super as Knuckles, Tails, or the other characters (like in Mania) didn't stop me from doing what I did as those other characters. It just let me do what they did already except. You know. Faster. Mighty in Mania didn't lose his ability to stomp and I still did so. Knuckles still glided and explored a lot. I just got to do those things faster since their super forms allowed them to do things quicker. And you know, invincible. I really don't feel like it hurts things nearly as much, but maybe that's just a sort of playtesting thing I'm unaware of where people who get super as characters with unique abilities just stop using their abilities.

Last edited by Eliwood; 12-15-2019 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 12-15-2019   #7
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Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
The actual reason is that one of the big flaws of S3K's setup is that super forms removed character variety. When you go super in S3K, all characters need to go fast while collecting rings. It's preferred to avoid using your abilities as much as possible because they slow you down.
When I use Tails or Knuckles, I use their flying and gliding abilities to extend my jumps, or get up to higher places to discover secrets. They can skip large chunks of levels if used properly, which is why I tend to use tails to tackle time trial emblems. And besides, while you can't ignore rings completely, you don't need to be that diligent with them to maintain the form throughout the level. I do not believe super takes away the usefulness that their abilities typically provide.

Fang is where things get dicey, however I will still argue that the gun is useful for getting something far away, and also is generally the most useful for boss fights, in which case he can't turn super anyway. (Edit: oh yeah, and bouncing.)

Amy... I'll admit it, your argument 100% applies with her. She has nothing but hammer swinging, which the invincibility makes obsolete.

But, still. At the very least, I feel tails and knuckles would be perfectly fine turning super.

Last edited by CowboyJoseph64; 12-15-2019 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 12-15-2019   #8
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ohhhh, so thats why they cant go super.... in all honesty, i thought it was because someone on sonic team set up a rule that 'only male hedgehogs can go super' (blaze doesnt count cuz it aint super, its burning)
which is a really stupid rule
im glad 'it removes character variety' is the reason, makes sense and isnt stupid omegalul
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Old 12-16-2019   #9
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I figured it was because Super Tails and Super Knux blow the others out of the water. The only reason Sonic as a character stands out at all is because his thok instantly lets him go twice as fast as everyone else, everywhere and anytime.

But then the flying guys go super and can ALSO move at thokspeed, while Sonic's top speed doesn't get any faster...
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Old 12-16-2019   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
The actual reason is that one of the big flaws of S3K's setup is that super forms removed character variety. When you go super in S3K, all characters need to go fast while collecting rings. It's preferred to avoid using your abilities as much as possible because they slow you down. This basically makes S3K have four characters: Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Super. When you play all-emerald runs you initially start with unique character abilities but then end up with everything the same by the end of the run. This ruins the whole fun of having unique characters to begin with.

You'll noticed that Sonic and Metal's SRB2 toolkit overlap with a core theme: going fast. Super does not disrupt that gameplay because you were likely already trying to do that, thus it enhances the toolkit they already had and gives them a new way to do what they were already doing. The other characters in the game are not designed around going fast. They have abilities that encourage other behavior, and if we gave them super then we'd just have the same issue S3K has where everyone becomes the same once you get the emeralds.

Something we've occasionally discussed in the past is giving the other characters completely different perks for getting all the emeralds, but this isn't a high priority so even if we decide we want to do that, it'd be a long time before we could implement it. In the meantime, though, I really don't want to ruin the character variety SRB2 has, and thus, I strongly disagree with the idea of adding super to other characters in vanilla. If you'd like to mess around with super as other characters, you'll need to mod the game.
I can understand this reasoning. The problem now is I feel no incentive to get the tokens and emeralds if I'm not Sonic or Metal Sonic.
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Old 12-16-2019   #11
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You gotta do it, though. It's the only way to tell the Try Again screen to put a sock in it.

(jokes aside, you're not missing out on any content by not getting the emeralds if you're not Sonic or Metal, so I don't see what's the issue in just ignoring that sidequest)
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Old 12-16-2019   #12
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I can understand this reasoning. The problem now is I feel no incentive to get the tokens and emeralds if I'm not Sonic or Metal Sonic.
You get a more cute ending cutscene where the character's head is shown in a constellation of stars.
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Old 12-16-2019   #13
glaber
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
The actual reason is that one of the big flaws of S3K's setup is that super forms removed character variety. When you go super in S3K, all characters need to go fast while collecting rings. It's preferred to avoid using your abilities as much as possible because they slow you down. This basically makes S3K have four characters: Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Super. When you play all-emerald runs you initially start with unique character abilities but then end up with everything the same by the end of the run. This ruins the whole fun of having unique characters to begin with.

You'll noticed that Sonic and Metal's SRB2 toolkit overlap with a core theme: going fast. Super does not disrupt that gameplay because you were likely already trying to do that, thus it enhances the toolkit they already had and gives them a new way to do what they were already doing. The other characters in the game are not designed around going fast. They have abilities that encourage other behavior, and if we gave them super then we'd just have the same issue S3K has where everyone becomes the same once you get the emeralds.

Something we've occasionally discussed in the past is giving the other characters completely different perks for getting all the emeralds, but this isn't a high priority so even if we decide we want to do that, it'd be a long time before we could implement it. In the meantime, though, I really don't want to ruin the character variety SRB2 has, and thus, I strongly disagree with the idea of adding super to other characters in vanilla. If you'd like to mess around with super as other characters, you'll need to mod the game.
I don't buy this argument. a Select few May Play S3K this way, but not everyone does.

When I get Hyper Sonic, I use the Hyper flash jump.
When I get Super Tails, I use his flickies and faster flight speed.
When I get Hyper Knuckles, I used his quake crash when I latch on to walls to climb, and I still use his unique abilities of gliding and climbing because Super adds to the gliding speed too.

Even in Mania, witch grants super to everyone with the Chaos emeralds, I still use the unique abilities there too!
the only thing super removes are SHILED abilities.

(Part of my signature is even a result of the last time the super argument was made here.)
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Last edited by glaber; 12-17-2019 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 12-16-2019   #14
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Honestly, I had never considered that. However, perhaps the answer isn't to remove Super from other characters, but to give them Super forms that don't feel like Super Sonic. As you say, the speed works with Sonic and Metal because that is what they focus on in normal gameplay as well, so perhaps other characters could instead have their own gameplay styles enhanced instead of the speed? For example, Super Tails having longer flight time, or perhaps Fang having longer range or being able to shoot while moving, or in the air, or perhaps having the chargebounce from releases or something. You know, take what defines Tails and Fang, and make it, well, Super.
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Old 12-16-2019   #15
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Perhaps a compromise would be to let all characters go Super, but as Mystic suggested, give each character different perks that emphasize their unique abilities:

Tails: Longer and Faster Flight

Knuckles: Maybe make his glide lose less vertical height when used/give him the jank Uglyknux multiglide

Amy: Hammer has wider reach, hearts give coop partners Force Shields instead of Pity Shields

Fang: Higher tail bounce, cork shots have small explosion radius when they land that damages nearby badniks/monitors
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Old 12-16-2019   #16
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One thing I would like to experiment on is only giving the speed, invincibility, and ring drain to Sonic and Metal Sonic, and making the rest of the characters simply have their extra perks while super so long as they don't take damage. So instead of lightning bruisers racing to the finish, the majority of the crew would essentially be super glass cannons.
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Old 12-16-2019   #17
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That's just making the chaos emeralds not the chaos emeralds for anyone not sonic or Metal sonic. I would advise releasing it as a mod first to gauge reception.

though personally, I'm of the opinion that it has to be full super.
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Old 12-17-2019   #18
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I'm of the opinion that everyone absolutely needs to be fast, invincible, etc.

However, giving each character a new ability to add to their kit wouldn't be a bad idea at all. Sonic gains the ability to hover, for instance. What if Tails got flight that was infinite, or knuckles shook all the area around him when hitting a wall? Just as a couple of examples. That would be pretty cool.

It would also potentially solve mystic's issue with allowing them to turn super in the first place.

Last edited by CowboyJoseph64; 12-17-2019 at 01:06 AM.
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Old 12-17-2019   #19
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Mystic's issue seems to stem more with a personal play style than anything objective.
He believes that you shouldn't use your character abilities because they supposedly slow you down, yet when you're super Knuckles, you can glide and climb faster than normal knuckles. Super Tails has faster flying too in both S3K and Mania.

Even Super Ray's gliding get's a speed buff from being super.
(Mighty's jump ability get's no buff from super as it's more of a stomp downwards.)

As it stands now, SRB2 Base Metal sonic is more like a discount Super Sonic in that he's invincible at full speed and can break spikes and hover all without needing to go super. The only differeance between Super Metal and super Sonic in SRB2 is Super Sonic can Thok.
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Last edited by glaber; 12-17-2019 at 01:25 AM.
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Old 12-17-2019   #20
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The problem with his logic is that the whole foundation for it rests on assuming that most people play the way he described. I don't personally believe that most people do, especially since there's still use for the abilities even while super.
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