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Old 07-24-2020   #1
Hacker 101
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Default Deep sea zone act 2 level design is stupid

Like literally where am I supposed to go

And if you don't watch a walkthrough it's literally impossible to even beat the level

(Hacker 101 received an infraction for this post: Be respectful when offering criticism.)
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Old 07-24-2020   #2
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Hmm... Deep Sea 2 is definitely one of the weaker maps in the campaign - what you see in 2.2 is actually a mashup of various betas, since the real map wasn't completed in time - but I wouldn't say it's confusing or impossible to beat at all. In fact, I think it's linear to a fault - there's usually only one way forward from any given room.

Is there somewhere specific that was giving you issues?
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Old 07-24-2020   #3
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Deep Sea 2 was actually one of the (somehow only) two times I got lost during my first playthrough of 2.2. The ending room with the tower is very confusing if you miss the springs that send you to the top. Attempting to climb the tower leads you along the side of it into a path which looks like the way forwards but is actually just a dead end with a token. It would help somewhat if there was actually a way up the tower that wasn't reliant on hitting a set of springs at the entrance of the room.

The rest of the level is pretty straightforward, but if you get turned around at the ending it can be quite disorienting.
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Old 07-24-2020   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaysakado View Post
Hmm... Deep Sea 2 is definitely one of the weaker maps in the campaign - what you see in 2.2 is actually a mashup of various betas, since the real map wasn't completed in time
Pretty much this, yeah! Deep Sea is probably the stage in 2.2 which shows most clearly the game is always a work in progress. I was frustrated on the stage myself, so I identify with you on that. However, I'm really gonna have to ask you (the OP) to refrain from calling people's creations "stupid" here. Whether it's a complete or an incomplete level, flawed or unflawed, everyone's stuff here deserves respect!

There's a lot of history behind most people's creations, so constructive criticism as opposed to just insulting things helps everyone grow instead of just discouraging them.
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Old 07-24-2020   #5
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Originally Posted by Charybdizs View Post
Pretty much this, yeah! Deep Sea is probably the stage in 2.2 which shows most clearly the game is always a work in progress. I was frustrated on the stage myself, so I identify with you on that. However, I'm really gonna have to ask you (the OP) to refrain from calling people's creations "stupid" here. Whether it's a complete or an incomplete level, flawed or unflawed, everyone's stuff here deserves respect!

There's a lot of history behind most people's creations, so constructive criticism as opposed to just insulting things helps everyone grow instead of just discouraging them.
I know I just want to call out the level design to stjr a mistake can't be a mistake if it wasn't called out am I right

Last edited by Hacker 101; 07-24-2020 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 07-24-2020   #6
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I've survived the 2.1 version of the map and I think that 2.2 made Deep Sea much, much better.
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Old 07-25-2020   #7
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Compared to the 2.1 version, Deep Sea Act 2 is definitely an improvement, but I can definitely see where you’re coming from. On my first play through some parts of it were pretty confusing and I’m pretty sure is the second stage I died mostly on, (first one was Arid Canyon Act 1 because I was bad lol) as I would get disoriented and drown because I wasn’t paying attention to my breath. Otherwise, it’s pretty straightforward like others have said, just a bit disorienting.
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Old 07-25-2020   #8
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Around March 2019, I was discussing with some developers (I had backroom access and used it to help things along) about the things that needed to be done to get 2.2 ready for the limelight. The consensus was something like this:
  • ACZ2 - mostly done but ending is a wet fart and paths are imbalanced
  • CEZ2 - laggy and heavily incomplete
  • THZ2 - half-complete Amy support on the Knuckles path
  • Amy doesn't have an unlockable method assigned to her
  • Replays are badly broken
  • The Titlescreen is incomplete
  • The OST replacement does not have a clear direction after tepid public reaction
  • DSZ2 - complete but not great

You can see why we identified it as the least priority of the outstanding work, and left it to languish accordingly Frankly, I'm both impressed and proud we managed to address everything else before the end of the year.
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Old 07-25-2020   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charonik08 View Post
Compared to the 2.1 version, Deep Sea Act 2 is definitely an improvement, but I can definitely see where youíre coming from. On my first play through some parts of it were pretty confusing and Iím pretty sure is the second stage I died mostly on, (first one was Arid Canyon Act 1 because I was bad lol) as I would get disoriented and drown because I wasnít paying attention to my breath. Otherwise, itís pretty straightforward like others have said, just a bit disorienting.
Yep, the fact that the destructible wall maze got removed was a good thing.
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Old 07-25-2020   #10
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I think DSZ2 is easily the worst zone in the main campaign before Egg Rock, and it's fair to give criticisms about the zone being difficult to navigate. Though the zone is for the most part fairly linear, a few of its sections are indeed confusing and easy to go in circles in, like the open room early on in the lower path, or the various routes you can take after the room with all those platforms that rise to the ceiling a few seconds after you stand on them.

My personal biggest issue with the zone, however, is that it lacks a clear identity compared to other zones. It's the second act of the Water Zone, sure. But it kind of goes back and forth between rocky nature areas and indoor temple exploration areas, the latter of which I think should take up most of the zone. DSZ1 ends with the entrance to an underwater temple, so it's weird DSZ2 doesn't pick up where that left off and instead starts with a rocky waterslide.

Also, as for the bustable rock maze, that section was total garbage that has no place in a Sonic game and I'm glad 2.2 got rid of it.
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Old 07-25-2020   #11
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Originally Posted by cookiefonster View Post
My personal biggest issue with the zone, however, is that it lacks a clear identity compared to other zones. It's the second act of the Water Zone, sure. But it kind of goes back and forth between rocky nature areas and indoor temple exploration areas, the latter of which I think should take up most of the zone. DSZ1 ends with the entrance to an underwater temple, so it's weird DSZ2 doesn't pick up where that left off and instead starts with a rocky waterslide.
Yeah I definitely agree. Due to DSZ2 just switching between rocky areas and temples, it feels like as if it has the weakest theming of all the stage (even if the stage looks really pretty). Like you mentioned it feels like it should be more temple areas then rocky areas (which were mostly established in the first stage) and could really be a great transition into DSZ3ís boss, a temple hideout of sorts.
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Old 07-25-2020   #12
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Agreeing with the above, I agree that the zone definitely lacks a bit of theming. But I also agree with the statement that DSZ2 did indeed feel linear at times. I personally didn't have much trouble completing it on my first run like the OP did, but the act does feel a bit like a wide-open area that doesn't really promote exploration. I'd be in favor of a more temple-exploration oriented redesign, as that would allow us to experience some of the more exciting areas of the level - the gargoyle switches, the upwards movement, etc. etc. - while also letting us take multiple paths that lead to the same goal, promoting replayability instead of leaving the level as one people would prefer to skip.

Again, while the level isn't one of my favorites, I have to say the music and design are aesthetically pleasing, even if the whole thing isn't the most fun to play. It rewards people who have been playing since earlier versions, like many other zones in the campaign.
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Old 07-26-2020   #13
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i think my biggest problem is that DSZ2 (or maybe even just DSZ as a whole) is too.... open world, for lack of better wording.

like, im not saying the stages need to follow a super specific set path. thatd be boring. but it seems like every time i watch a new SRB2 playthrough i find a new route in DSZ.

this wouldnt be much of a problem if it didnt get me confused as all hell. this is also a problem in ACZ, but its extremely problematic in DSZ. i remember when i first played through 2.2 i had no idea where to go and spent a good 10 minutes trying to find the end of the level.

i think its theme and music are fine, though. its just the level design that need some work.
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Old 07-26-2020   #14
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FWIW, a lot of dev also felt that DSZ2 was the weakest of the "redone" zones. The version that came out of it was forced due to time constraints.
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Old 07-26-2020   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacker 101 View Post
Like literally where am I supposed to go

And if you don't watch a walkthrough it's literally impossible to even beat the level
This kinda seems to only have happened to you, because I've completed the level in 2-3 minutes? The first time I played it, which was when it got released (same day, there wasn't anything out there to help me out)
Level design has its own way of working, if you managed to complete THZ2, then you obviously can complete every Zone 2 of the game; don't try to act like DSZ2 is a labyrinth because of your own capabilities.

---------- Post added at 12:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 PM ----------

Just read some people's experiences, and came to the conclusion it wasn't only you, but got to consider they mostly had complains of how the stage ends.
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Old 07-26-2020   #16
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I was able to figure it out on my own pretty easily, but I can still kinda see where you're coming from.
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Old 07-26-2020   #17
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I will say, the first couple of times I played DSZ2 as it is, I always felt like you could get lost near the start.

The ending is a bit odd, but that was a result of us trying to make the temple ending not confusing during development. You didn't used to spring up to the top like that, for instance. There was one point where it was even possible the temple would be cut, but it stuck around because it was an obvious "setpiece" for the level in a way. (please correct me if I'm wrong)

I think there's supposed to be another remake of DSZ2 that was happening, the version in 2.2 was already "old" in a way.
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Old 07-27-2020   #18
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Yeah, DSZ2 is probably one of the weaker levels in the main campaign. I love DSZ1 so DSZ2 is a little disappointing. Not to say by any means it's a bad stage. It just feels a bit boring at times, with the weird large open gargoyle rooms and the waterslides. I think those are cool mechanics in concept, but the way they're executed is iffy. Maybe have a Speed Highway like section where you're riding the waterslide down trying to avoid obstacles?
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Old 07-27-2020   #19
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Yeah, DSZ2 is probably one of the weaker levels in the main campaign. I love DSZ1 so DSZ2 is a little disappointing. Not to say by any means it's a bad stage. It just feels a bit boring at times, with the weird large open gargoyle rooms and the waterslides. I think those are cool mechanics in concept, but the way they're executed is iffy. Maybe have a Speed Highway like section where you're riding the waterslide down trying to avoid obstacles?
What's wrong with the waterslides, and in what way would your suggestion improve them? That sounds much more restrictive to me. The way they work right now, you can do some backtracking with some of the characters' abilities, you can pick your path whenever they split, and the level designers can have intersecting and perpendicular water slides, with sections that let you jump from one slide to another. All of that would be gone if they made them work like Speed Highway's Goin' Down.
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Old 07-27-2020   #20
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What's wrong with the waterslides, and in what way would your suggestion improve them? That sounds much more restrictive to me. The way they work right now, you can do some backtracking with some of the characters' abilities, you can pick your path whenever they split, and the level designers can have intersecting and perpendicular water slides, with sections that let you jump from one slide to another. All of that would be gone if they made them work like Speed Highway's Goin' Down.
Right, sorry forgot to clarify. I was thinking about the ending section when writing this, which isnít that great to be honest, so the Speed Highway thing was my solution. As for improving the waterslides in general, iím not really sure. Thereís not much you can expand off what they already are.

But I believe adding more split paths and rewards for moving around could make not just the waterslides but DSZ more interesting, that and the Speed Highway thing for a more interactive (?) final section rather than what is basically Labyrinth / Ice Capís slides in 3D
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