azoo
Member
There's no real explanation in that for why it's a handicap though. Going by what he's saying + what I've played I assumed it's the camera, but that's why I asked the question you quoted.
Unofficial v2.2 Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Wumbo
- Start date
There's no real explanation in that for why it's a handicap though. Going by what he's saying + what I've played I assumed it's the camera, but that's why I asked the question you quoted.
Retroben
Bruised-up Disgruntled Bear
I played through the cheater method of the game by playing as Tails but ignored emeralds and had a frustrating time getting through each level and getting stuck in close-up camera views on corners a lot.
Sonic or Knuckles in the current condition is downright impossible to beat on a laptop keyboard (especially if on my old slow laptop with terrible key press limitations) with the requirement of constantly having to press/hold the camera left/right keys to navigate or run right into a hazard.
I also trudged through the speed records of a handful of stages barely making it after several attempts,mostly taking advantage of specific characters like Tails a lot and
as well,Knuckles and Sonic are useless to me for regular stages though Sonic works well for quickly handling many of the bosses.
Thank goodness the
are no longer used or I may have rage quit or got a game over.
Sonic or Knuckles in the current condition is downright impossible to beat on a laptop keyboard (especially if on my old slow laptop with terrible key press limitations) with the requirement of constantly having to press/hold the camera left/right keys to navigate or run right into a hazard.
I also trudged through the speed records of a handful of stages barely making it after several attempts,mostly taking advantage of specific characters like Tails a lot and
Metal Sonic
Thank goodness the
final boss grab-able missiles
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If you can find a way to make analog comfortable with a CONTROLLER i'll give you a flippin' Nobel prize. like how are you supposed to micro manage the camera with the right stick while also Staunchly saying "get good" or "get used to it" is the absolute wrong way to do this. As someone that has followed this since 1.9.4 It's hard to see this update as anything other than a "1 step forward 2 steps back" deal. Some people have actual legitimate reasons for not being able to play with a control scheme like that, whether it could be something like an actual handicap or simply the way their PC is set up to run the game (as an example I hook my pc up to a tv and use a controller on my couch, as using a mouse to control the camera in a third person game literally gives me motion sickness) so there is no feasible way to pull this of with even a bit of comfort. and it's a shame because for every fantastic change and improvement to 2.2 is immediately overwritten by how uncomfortable the controls are. It's almost Ironic that the update that added Closed-captions (which clearly shows that SOMEONE on the team cares about accessibility) removes the option for a standard 3d control scheme. I also don't even see a legitimate reason, because it would mess with the deathmatch mode?! so just make it so you can't use it in deathmatch!! There is even aspects of the game that feel way more natural on a controller ignoring the controls of the main game! Are you telling me that the default special stages, which are blatantly meant to play like NiGHTS, a game that pioneered and was designed around an analog stick is meant to be played with WASD? basically a glorified D-PAD?! Are you serious or are you expecting people to flipflop between control devices?! it seems completely unnecessary and very VERY close-minded. I haven't heard anyone be this stubborn about a clearly divisive control scheme since Star Fox Zero, where I also heard defenders say things along the lines of "you'll get used to it, give it time" and after 3 whole playthroughs it still felt as uncomfortable as the 1st time I picked it up (and clearly I'm not in the minority on this if you look at how THAT disaster went).
Its like there is a reason stuff like the gyro controls in all Nintendo's more recent stuff is optional, and whenever it isn't all you hear about it is complaints. I can imagine that even if something relatively popular like Splatoon suddenly made gyro mandatory a large majority of the player base would just drop it immediately because a lack of options only results in a lack of comfort/accessibility. Do you think everyone who plays Mario kart would still play it if the only controls were the Wii wheel? or if everyone who plays Smash bros would keep playing if the only way to play it was a single Joy-Con? It's like some people like playing FPSs with a Southpaw control scheme but if that was made not only the default it would end up as nothing more than a laughing stock. and why is this any different? Demanding people us a control scheme that you already know is uncomfortable and unorthodox when a perfectly functional option used to exist is just as, if not MORE, absurd. being in this kind of situation and staying this stubborn about it is not only foolish, but also elitist on a level that borders on toxic, and also ignoring what SRB2 has been first and foremost since it started.
A 3d Platformer.
But lets be real, even if you refuse to put it back in as a proper option it'll probably be a month at most until someone mods it back in, Because I guess even fangames need to rely on their fans to fix their own mistakes nowadays.
Its like there is a reason stuff like the gyro controls in all Nintendo's more recent stuff is optional, and whenever it isn't all you hear about it is complaints. I can imagine that even if something relatively popular like Splatoon suddenly made gyro mandatory a large majority of the player base would just drop it immediately because a lack of options only results in a lack of comfort/accessibility. Do you think everyone who plays Mario kart would still play it if the only controls were the Wii wheel? or if everyone who plays Smash bros would keep playing if the only way to play it was a single Joy-Con? It's like some people like playing FPSs with a Southpaw control scheme but if that was made not only the default it would end up as nothing more than a laughing stock. and why is this any different? Demanding people us a control scheme that you already know is uncomfortable and unorthodox when a perfectly functional option used to exist is just as, if not MORE, absurd. being in this kind of situation and staying this stubborn about it is not only foolish, but also elitist on a level that borders on toxic, and also ignoring what SRB2 has been first and foremost since it started.
A 3d Platformer.
But lets be real, even if you refuse to put it back in as a proper option it'll probably be a month at most until someone mods it back in, Because I guess even fangames need to rely on their fans to fix their own mistakes nowadays.
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Retroben
Bruised-up Disgruntled Bear
I would prefer to have the "not as good" "handicapped controls" for a "real frustrating" time and then apparently rage about the "bad controls" that I love a lot compared to the locked-down,actually frustrating/irritating/infuriating digital controls that I hate/despise/loathe because of how many features you lose with that from not being able to climb walls or glide efficiently or speed thok in a preferred direction intuitively,or have a live view of Tails flight as well to keep an eye on an enemy that is chasing and shooting projectiles at you.
I'm not going through the entire analog debate again, but the crux of the problem is that analog mode isn't good at doing its job. Players who use it simply do worse than players that use the default scheme, and this goes for all control methods, including gamepads. The control scheme where players just play by constantly hitting the shoulder buttons/right stick to emulate moving the mouse works incredibly well, although it's obviously not as good as WASD and the mouse, it's more than good enough to play well and have a great time.
By hiding analog from view we make our learning curve initially a little bit worse because players are being forced to use a control scheme they're probably not familiar with, but massively reduce frustration in the long-term when they get to the parts of the game that actually expect the player to have some skill and the control scheme isn't actively hindering them. Essentially, we think that players that perform better and don't lose as much will enjoy the game more. Analog mode actively is way less accurate and players that use it simply perform way worse, as determined by actual research and testing. Players that sit down and learn our weird hybrid control scheme have an initial learning curve before having a way better long-term experience, and that's why we've made the decisions we did here.
I get that you may not like the answer we have chosen here, but I assure you that this is backed up with serious time and energy spent determining what problems were making it so hard to get into SRB2 to begin with. Analog mode was actually the worst offender. This is also the reason for features like directionchar and autobrake, to help make what's going on in the default control scheme more intuitive and easier to learn.
By hiding analog from view we make our learning curve initially a little bit worse because players are being forced to use a control scheme they're probably not familiar with, but massively reduce frustration in the long-term when they get to the parts of the game that actually expect the player to have some skill and the control scheme isn't actively hindering them. Essentially, we think that players that perform better and don't lose as much will enjoy the game more. Analog mode actively is way less accurate and players that use it simply perform way worse, as determined by actual research and testing. Players that sit down and learn our weird hybrid control scheme have an initial learning curve before having a way better long-term experience, and that's why we've made the decisions we did here.
I get that you may not like the answer we have chosen here, but I assure you that this is backed up with serious time and energy spent determining what problems were making it so hard to get into SRB2 to begin with. Analog mode was actually the worst offender. This is also the reason for features like directionchar and autobrake, to help make what's going on in the default control scheme more intuitive and easier to learn.
azoo
Member
After playing with it for most of the game I can say I'm playing worse with the new scheme than I was before, for the reasons I mentioned. And 5-7 hours I imagine is more than enough time to learn how it plays.
It just doesn't feel very good on gamepad imo.
And again, the only times analog mode ever gave me trouble was because right stick maneuverability / camera centering doesn't work at all with it for some reason. That's a pretty big deal to gloss over, one'd think, especially if it contributes to it's axing.
It just doesn't feel very good on gamepad imo.
And again, the only times analog mode ever gave me trouble was because right stick maneuverability / camera centering doesn't work at all with it for some reason. That's a pretty big deal to gloss over, one'd think, especially if it contributes to it's axing.
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Zwip-Zwap Zapony
Member
Having played 2.2.0 as Tails for a little while... does the flying feel "off"? It's been very long since I last played 2.1, but it feels like that if I hold W first and then later also D while flying, Tails goes at maybe a 30-degree angle or such instead of a 45-degree angle, while I remember it feeling more like the latter in 2.1. (In both cases without analog mode).
Also, is there a way to play the game in borderless fullscreen mode? Using "-width 1920 -height 1080 -borderless -opengl" as launch options on my 1920x1080 display, it becomes borderless fullscreen when the game is not in focus, but it becomes "exclusive fullscreen" when the game is in focus (much like Doom (2016), unlike Team Fortress 2 (which I can get to be permanently borderless fullscreen)). I'm fairly (but not 100%) sure that I could get it to be borderless fullscreen in 2.1.X with the same launch options.
Also, is there a way to play the game in borderless fullscreen mode? Using "-width 1920 -height 1080 -borderless -opengl" as launch options on my 1920x1080 display, it becomes borderless fullscreen when the game is not in focus, but it becomes "exclusive fullscreen" when the game is in focus (much like Doom (2016), unlike Team Fortress 2 (which I can get to be permanently borderless fullscreen)). I'm fairly (but not 100%) sure that I could get it to be borderless fullscreen in 2.1.X with the same launch options.
Tails (and everyone else) had their stats normalized to Sonic's stat block in 2.2. There is also a feature in 2.1-on that normalizes your movement vector if you press a direction that would put you over the speed cap for your current action.
In combination, this means that because Tails is now running faster, you start flying with a higher forward momentum. Then when you press D to change direction, you would move more forward than you would in 2.1 when it normalizes the vector, and therefore you don't turn as hard.
I still don't see a reason not to make it an option, even if its 'the best way to play" and apparently somehow "a steeper learning curve" that "doesn't hinder the player" if that's how you feel about it fine, but make it default and have analog as an OPTION. most of the people that would have put the game down so quickly anyway also wouldn't bother with menus and settings either so there is literally no drawback. Also, I'd like to point out that it feels like an extra spit in the face that this update adds an option for orbital looking which makes the camera on the right stick behave in the perfect way for a more passive camera. something like ANALOG.
Zwip-Zwap Zapony
Member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in 2.1, Tails would change direction to fly exactly where you're pressing with the movement controls (even if it may take a little while to adjust the direction, depending on the current speed), whereas in 2.2, Tails moves some of the way, but not all of the way if you're going fast, to the direction that you press, being kind of a mix between 2.0's odd flight and 2.1's non-odd flight.
In 2.2, if I run north, start flying, and start pressing east-north-east on my gamepad, Tails feels like that he'll turn to north-north-east, and then stop turning more eastwards.
Even if Tails' stats were changed in 2.2, why wouldn't Tails still accelerate in the pressed direction, then "slow down" after the acceleration to be put back within the speed cap, and therefore always be moving slightly more towards the pressed direction than the previous tic (due to having the movement vector always be a slight mix of "current movement" and "pressed direction")?
(I don't know the exact math involved in the flight direction, but the above "example"/question sounds like "proper" behaviour to me.)
Didn't 2.1 feel like that (even if "just" due to different stats), or am I misremembering?
Unknownlight
Member
Where do you post bugs?
If you view the credits from the option on the main menu, there's no way to exit out of it without either watching the whole thing or quitting the game (as far as I can tell).
If you view the credits from the option on the main menu, there's no way to exit out of it without either watching the whole thing or quitting the game (as far as I can tell).
I wouldn't be surprised if in this case it's both: something else changed I've forgotten about and you're misremembering. There's a lot of concern about Tails on dev because he's insanely overpowered currently, especially for time attack, so it'll probably be addressed, although probably not soon.
Some advice to those who want to use a controller but are disappointed with analog's deprecation: Abandon the face buttons, they will make your life harder. Use the two triggers as jump and spindash and the shoulder buttons as whatever preferred Match or Custom buttons you desire - this will be significantly friendlier to your hands when combined with the twin sticks, I promise.
Honestly, I fully recommend this gets incorporated into the tutorial in future patches - it's downright comfortable AND playable!
Honestly, I fully recommend this gets incorporated into the tutorial in future patches - it's downright comfortable AND playable!
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Zwip-Zwap Zapony
Member
Triggers for jumping/spinning/any other "on/off" actions doesn't feel right for me; Triggers aren't "clicky" enough for easy telling of whether it's pressed or not, at least in my opinion with a DualShock 4 (PlayStation 4 controller).
But the bumpers/shoulder buttons feel nice. Assigning jump to the right bumper (R1) and spin to the left one felt... dare I say it, almost natural. Not even with much of a learning curve for it for me, even despite having played 2.1 with the face buttons for it (even though I didn't use analog mode), though other people might have a harder time getting used to it at first.
I still have the face buttons assigned to jumping/spinning too, though, and use the face buttons for the special stages, but other than that, I almost only use the bumpers for jumping/spinning now, and it feels good.
I have. Having been a longtime-player of non-analog-mode 2.1, it didn't really teach me anything, but I can't say that there's anything in particular that's bad about the tutorial (I just knew it all in advance).
Goldenhog
Wandering Protagonist
Anyone got 200 emblems yet? I want to know what it unlocks besides Pandora's Box.
Happened to me as well.
Happened to me as well.
Aegix
Generally Friendly
Yeah that totally makes sense. He's never felt faster and more able to take insane shortcuts.
I'll be sad to see him nerfed, but I can totally see where that's coming from.
Well, if the data supports that hypothesis...
Then as that one movie once said: "Never. Argue. With. The data!"
Honestly, as someone who used to just use the arrow keys to move AND turn (no strafing), I'm finding that I'm MUCH more capable with the mouse and WASD controls this time around. Locking the Up-Down camera axis as you guys have REALLY helps.
Knuckles MetalMind
Member
Awesome job on the default controls!!!
Today I have finished my first playthrough as Knuckles, with a gamepad, without a single Game Over and the 7 emeralds. Until now, I only played on keyboard or keyboard + mouse, as playing on gamepad was impossible for me, as I lost all precission, which is awful on hard parts like ERZ2. Meanwhile, today I've done the "Megaman platforms" in the first try!! So really good job with the default gamepad controls!!
Like everybody, I had two big problems:
Thoking/gliding to the camera
I didn't like thoking or gliding to where you were looking initially, but I understand why it has been made, and I think it's better this way too. Anyway, this seems like a good suggestion:
Has this been tried? Or would the camera change too quick and disorient more?
Shoulders for jumping and spinning
I'm playing with a Xbox One controller, and IMO the shoulder buttons are the worse part of that gamepad (they are too hard to press for an action you perform so much). After changing both jumping and spinning on face buttons, I've played a lot better, but I learnt fastly why the face buttons aren't used: Once you are gliding or thoking fast, you can't press jump and use both analogs correctly.
I haven't tried triggers yet, but I will do it for sure!! They will feel better.
And... Tutorial?
What is really missing is a gamepad tutorial. Does it exist or just didn't work when I tried it? I had to play it with the keyboard instructions. Having one for the gamepad too would be perfect.
Anyway, they are all minor annoyances for me, and I'e really enjoyed my first playthrough. Playing as other characters feels great too :)
Today I have finished my first playthrough as Knuckles, with a gamepad, without a single Game Over and the 7 emeralds. Until now, I only played on keyboard or keyboard + mouse, as playing on gamepad was impossible for me, as I lost all precission, which is awful on hard parts like ERZ2. Meanwhile, today I've done the "Megaman platforms" in the first try!! So really good job with the default gamepad controls!!
Like everybody, I had two big problems:
Thoking/gliding to the camera
I didn't like thoking or gliding to where you were looking initially, but I understand why it has been made, and I think it's better this way too. Anyway, this seems like a good suggestion:
Has this been tried? Or would the camera change too quick and disorient more?
Shoulders for jumping and spinning
I'm playing with a Xbox One controller, and IMO the shoulder buttons are the worse part of that gamepad (they are too hard to press for an action you perform so much). After changing both jumping and spinning on face buttons, I've played a lot better, but I learnt fastly why the face buttons aren't used: Once you are gliding or thoking fast, you can't press jump and use both analogs correctly.
I haven't tried triggers yet, but I will do it for sure!! They will feel better.
And... Tutorial?
What is really missing is a gamepad tutorial. Does it exist or just didn't work when I tried it? I had to play it with the keyboard instructions. Having one for the gamepad too would be perfect.
Anyway, they are all minor annoyances for me, and I'e really enjoyed my first playthrough. Playing as other characters feels great too :)
sluggard
Formerly "RomioTheBadass"
I meant making the character face the same direction the camera is facing while the character is rolling in air so it at least gives us a better idea where thok / glide is directed or aimed at, not the other way around lol.
Knuckles MetalMind
Member
That sounds awesome! It would be a lot less confusing than now.