Unofficial v2.2 Discussion Thread

Analog hasn't actually been removed, but it's been depreciated, both renamed and not in the menus anywhere. Thus when release happens it'll be hard to enable it, on purpose, because we've obfuscated its existence and it only still exists purely for those that find they cannot adjust to a proper control setup even after trying out the standard setup with the changes. We highly recommend the standard setup for all control options, including keyboard-only play.

Like, really, analog mode is super bad. Stop using it guys :(

tabu said:

so with analog going bye-bye, does that mean people playing keyboard-only are just kinda screwed? analog is by far the most comfortable way to play that way imo

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No, because you can definitely play the game keyboard-only just fine with the non-analog controls even in 2.1. I would know, I play keyboard-only. =P

Mystic said:

Like, really, analog mode is super bad. Stop using it guys :(

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it's actually pretty nice to have a non-tank controls mode where the camera mostly just works without any adjustment

Monster Iestyn said:

No, because you can definitely play the game keyboard-only just fine with the non-analog controls even in 2.1. I would know, I play keyboard-only. =P

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how? do you just put up with having to manually shift the camera around constantly? and having to manually stop and slowly turn resident evil-style every time you want to see what's in front of you is unacceptable for a sonic game imo

The reason they're getting rid of Analog Mode is bc. Directionchar exists, which has the character automically face any direction you push

Just think of it like Analog Mode but with better control

Twins'R'Awesome said:

The reason they're getting rid of Analog Mode is bc. Directionchar exists, which has the character automically face any direction you push

Just think of it like Analog Mode but with better control

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afaik all that does is just change the sprite relative to the direction you're moving. doesn't affect the camera at all which is my whole issue

i'm really not sure where all this insistence about better control is coming from anyway. it's a complete hassle keyboard-only. i know because it's what i used for years before switching on analog on a whim and vastly preferring it right off the bat

tabu said:

how? do you just put up with having to manually shift the camera around constantly? and having to manually stop and slowly turn resident evil-style every time you want to see what's in front of you is unacceptable for a sonic game imo

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So, what we've found is that a lot of players don't actually understand what's going on in our default controls, and most crucially many players are not using strafe and leading to a shitty tank-like setup that's absolutely awful and exactly what you're describing. This lack of understanding and frustration with the controls is the reason why we have created a proper control tutorial in 2.2, which will teach you how to use the default control scheme correctly. We've also redone a huge amount of the visuals, names, and other related stuff to make it easier to understand how it works. Basically all we ask is that you try it out again with the tutorial and give it a fair shake, because once you actually understand how to use the default control setup, you'll understand exactly why I'm saying that analog is super terrible and that you shouldn't use it.

Mystic said:

So, what we've found is that a lot of players don't actually understand what's going on in our default controls, and most crucially many players are not using strafe and leading to a shitty tank-like setup that's absolutely awful and exactly what you're describing. This lack of understanding and frustration with the controls is the reason why we have created a proper control tutorial in 2.2, which will teach you how to use the default control scheme correctly. We've also redone a huge amount of the visuals, names, and other related stuff to make it easier to understand how it works. Basically all we ask is that you try it out again with the tutorial and give it a fair shake, because once you actually understand how to use the default control setup, you'll understand exactly why I'm saying that analog is super terrible and that you shouldn't use it.

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no. my point there was that the only way i can somewhat efficiently play without analog, the bubsytank controls, are obviously terrible in their own way like you just described. the only reason i'd even have to use them is because the default controls are even worse for my keyboard-only setup

again, my issue here is that i, a keyboard-only player, don't have an efficient means to constantly fidget with the camera so i can play the game with strafing enabled like the default. my grievance is that my solution to this, analog, is kinda going away for what in-so-far seem to be not particularly convincing reasons.

please don't tell me i don't know how to use the default controls either when i just explained that they're what i forced myself to use for the vast majority of my time playing srb2. i just flat out don't think they work for keyboard-only (or even just simpler controller) setups and think that the one solution that somewhat fixed it should still be an easily-accessible option. and no, a tutorial explaining things i already understand, a completely visual lua script that changes sprite direction, and a tweak on how braking work all do absolutely nothing to fix my issue here. i'm pretty sure i already know i'm not going to like the default 2.2 controls i'm now going to be borderline forced to use.

tabu said:

it's actually pretty nice to have a non-tank controls mode where the camera mostly just works without any adjustment

how? do you just put up with having to manually shift the camera around constantly? and having to manually stop and slowly turn resident evil-style every time you want to see what's in front of you is unacceptable for a sonic game imo

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The whole point of the advocation for tank controls is that analog's camera doesn't "just work well without any adjustment" in the upcoming version, as explained on the previous page. You'll likely have to move your hand to the camera rotation keys often to manually rotate the camera and see what's in front of you—in which case you may as well make it part of your control scheme, which just so happens to be pretty much what the default controls are. :P

But in any case:

tabu said:

my grievance is that my solution to this, analog, is kinda going away for what in-so-far seem to be not particularly good reasons.

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It's still in the game. It's being hidden for "not particularly good reasons" that have been explained multiple times in this thread (analog's camera will not adjust well to the new level designs) for the purposes of keeping it away from new players. But if you (a veteran player) insist on using it, they've done you a favor by choosing to keep it as an option. It's okay to have personal preferences and you're more than welcome to disregard the recommendations offered to you! I don't see what's to be upset about.

so yes, kb-only players are screwed now. got it. you act as if i'm missing info here when that was my only question to begin with. what even set me off about this was the implication on the last page that the only viable way to play a sonic platformer was a "twin stick fps" setup which is just baffling to me and alienates any player (of which there have to be many) with a different setup right off the bat

also not sure why occasionally having to rotate the camera in analog is supposed to be a problem when it's literally your only option with the default control scheme. what i like about analog is that it mostly adjusts for you. it makes kb-only play viable

tabu said:

no. my point there was that the only way i can somewhat efficiently play without analog, the bubsytank controls, are obviously terrible in their own way like you just described. the only reason i even have to use it is because the default controls are even worse for my keyboard-only setup

again, my issue here is that i, a keyboard-only player, don't have an efficient means to constantly fidget with the camera so i can play the game with strafing enabled like the default. my grievance is that my solution to this, analog, is kinda going away for what in-so-far seem to be not particularly convincing reasons.

please don't tell me i don't know how to use the default controls either when i just explained that they're what i forced myself to use for the vast majority of my time playing srb2. i just flat out don't think they work for keyboard-only controls and think that the one solution that somewhat fixed it should still be an easily-accessible option. and no, a completely visual lua script that changes sprite direction and tweaks on how braking work do absolutely nothing to fix my issue here. i'm pretty sure i already know i'm not going to like the default 2.2 controls i'm now going to be borderline forced to use

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By describing them as Bubsy-tank controls, you're basically straight saying that the concept of strafing never clicked for you. We get that. It's almost certainly our fault for not explaining ourselves well and not forcing basic control features. When making 2.1, I put forth a conscious effort to make sure that you could still use those god-awful tank controls and succeed. This kicked this issue down the road and led to even more people thinking our game is garbage and controls like shit. I take full responsibility for that mistake and am sorry it led to you having a bad experience.

What I'm trying to tell you is that we've done a ton of work on new player understanding. We've completely revamped the default control scheme so that it makes sense immediately to anyone who's played a PC shooter, as well as make it impossible to use it in a manner resembling tank controls (if you actually want tank controls for some reason, you're going to need to change the controls to allow it). We've put in a tutorial to teach you how to play the game, explicitly explaining in words how to move, handle the camera, and more advanced concepts like circling around bosses while facing them, how to use the thok effectively, and that shields have abilities. We've redone the visuals to make the character face in the direction of your control input to help make the control actions you take feel more responsive and improve understanding of what control inputs are making a difference on your movement. We've improved the default camera settings to make things easier to see and understand.

We've done all this because we understand that a lot of people have had your experience starting out playing our game. The controls felt like shit and when you found analog, despite how crappy it is, it felt like an improvement. We understand that. What I'm trying to tell you is that, while yes, this is a change and it will take a little getting used to, if you give the new setup a real chance, I genuinely believe you will not want to look up how to enable analog again after a couple of hours of play.

i only called it bubsytank because someone else in the thread referred to it as that. i don't think the bubsytank controls are the new default, or that it's the only way to play besides using analog. you're still very much misunderstanding me. i've understood from the very beginning that the new control scheme is fps-esque. my point is that it invalidates both kb-only and certain controller setups that should very well be playable with a sonic platform game, and are with the analog control that's now being phased out. this screws people who play with these setups. that should not be a developer priority

The problem, quite simply, is that analog is very bad at what it's attempting to be. New players find the feature, attempt to play the game with it, and get massively frustrated because the game controls like shit. Basically, analog pretends to be a modern 3D platforming control scheme but it really isn't, and this leads to constant flying off into the wild blue yonder and wondering what in hell the designers were thinking with this "thok" thing. Just watch new players struggle to play SRB2 on YouTube and other places outside of the SRB2 community, and you can see this issue in action yourself.

The core goal here is to improve new player experience. We want to minimize the time it takes from a new player picking up our game to that new player understanding the controls well enough to have genuine fun. Analog mode is actively detrimental to that cause because not only is it badly implemented, it makes players think they know what's going on because it's close enough to Sonic Adventure that the player thinks it actually operates like it, when it absolutely does not. If you would like to continue using it, we're leaving it in the game for exactly that reason, but we know for a fact that analog mode's existence is actively harming new player experiences, and this is why it needed to be hidden from view.

you keep insisting that analog is bad because it's bad when i vastly prefer it to default. personally i still have no idea what the big problem with it is. i think new players who struggle with analog would absolutely gruel through the default controls just the same

what about new players playing kb-only or with a simpler controller? what are their options now? the new default certainly doesn't accommodate for them. this was my whole point to begin with

tabu said:

how? do you just put up with having to manually shift the camera around constantly? and having to manually stop and slowly turn resident evil-style every time you want to see what's in front of you is unacceptable for a sonic game imo

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I never have to stop in order to turn around. I have no idea how easy the current default control scheme is to use keyboard-only, but I have a custom control scheme of my own and I can quite easily move forward, strafe and turn left/right all at the same time with it.

If you're wondering what my control scheme is, here is the basics of it:

Right hand:
* Arrow keys for moving forward, backwards, and turning left/right

Left hand:
* A/D for strafing left/right
* Space for jump
* Z for spinning

The only downside is that I can't turn the camera up/down very well without stopping, but in Single Player at least I don't need that as much as turning left/right anyway.

the cool thing about analog is that it mostly just does that all for me. adjusting the camera with keys is not fun, and if anything should be absolutely mitigated and certainly shouldn't be the only accessible way to play

The new default control scheme handles both keyboard only and using keyboard and a mouse. For keyboard-only play, the controls are WASD for movement, arrow keys for the camera, space for jump and shift for spin, as you would expect. Replace the arrow keys with a mouse for keyboard and mouse play. For controller-based play, the default suggestion is standard dual analog like any FPS made in the last 15 years.

We also have plenty of evidence that the players that use FPS controls learn the game way faster and become competent at the control scheme within half an hour. For instance, here is a competitive blind speedrun using the default controls from 2.1: https://mb.srb2.org/showthread.php?t=43338

You can see many of the issues we had with 2.1's control setup in that video, but it's obvious that those players became actively more skilled by the end of the video, and they were doing a blind speedrun so they didn't have time to take it easy and try to learn things slowly.

Also, I'll be completely blunt: Analog has never been a suggested control scheme. We've been pretty clear on how bad it is for over 10 years at this point. This is simply something we should have done a long time ago to put our best foot forward and show newbies a method of playing that isn't going to lead to massive frustration. We're absolutely not changing our course on this no matter how much you complain. Just because it works for you doesn't mean that it's something we would ever recommend other players use.

Speaking from personal experience: I found the concept of using FPS controls in a Sonic game to be wildly alienating at first, and so switched between bubsytank and analog for a long time, playing the game on and off. When I finally tried the FPS controls properly, I actually found moving the player and the camera with different sets of keys to be much more fun, and ever since then I've been way more invested in the game. I use a mouse to control the camera now, but whenever I don't have one on me I still occasionally use the arrow keys.

It's okay to prefer analog, but you aren't the entire playerbase. Moving the camera with the keys may not be your cup of tea, but from what I know the majority of keyboard players enjoy it.

Can't wait to try and reimplement Analog when it's fully gone.

Mystic said:

For keyboard-only play, the controls are WASD for movement, arrow keys for the camera, space for jump and shift for spin, as you would expect.

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and that's not a convenient or fun way to play the game at all. it requires much more adjustment to get used to when analog fixes most problems with this control scheme right off the bat. i get that the fps controls are made for other setups. my entire point is that i shouldnt need a kb+m or a dualshock 4 to comfortably play a sonic game with simple controls. especially when a convenient alternative already exists. and again, insisting that analog is bad because it's bad, even for 10+ years, isn't convincing.

i can almost guarantee you those new players and blind speedrunners would not be adjusting or enjoying themselves if they were in my situation and didn't know about analog. and with 2.2, new players aren't even going to have the option unless they happen to know about it and whatever obtuse method we have to use now to re-enable it

Lach said:

Speaking from personal experience: I found the concept of using FPS controls in a Sonic game to be wildly alienating at first, and so switched between bubsytank and analog for a long time, playing the game on and off. When I finally tried the FPS controls properly, I actually found moving the player and the camera with different sets of keys to be much more fun, and ever since then I've been way more invested in the game. I use a mouse to control the camera now, but whenever I don't have one on me I still occasionally use the arrow keys.

It's okay to prefer analog, but you aren't the entire playerbase. Moving the camera with the keys may not be your cup of tea, but from what I know the majority of keyboard players enjoy it.

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i really don't understand what's "fun" about manual camera movement, especially with keys. no less considering that you can still move the camera in analog anyway. it sounds to me like you never gave analog a fair shake, or that you've never actually had to play kb-only

Tried Analog mode once, made my stomach hurt because of how fast the camera turns whenever I do any fast action like Sonic's Air Thok or Knuckles' glide, and downright unplayable as tails because I couldn't turn the camera. even worse when I get the Speedsneakers.