Sonic's Ability Discussion

[Unknownlight]

I think the new Comet Dash is my favorite so far. I particularly really like how it gives Sonic a vertical ability that level designers can easily restrict if they want to.



A couple of suggestions:

1. There needs to be a grace period between the Comet Dash ending and the ability to scale walls ending. These two situations look almost identical from the player's point of view, yet one time was a success and the other a failure:



2. I don't think I like how the Comet Dash recharge works. I'm not even sure it should recharge. A Sonic Colors-style mini double jump might be better, as it lets players who just barely miss getting to the top of the platform to still reach safe ground.

[Icarus]

I would say if it ain't broke don't try fixing it because many people are used to the controls here. I would say that mods do a good work to change Sonic without being a definitive one.

[LunickTMM]

I feel this just makes him into Knuckles-lite a bit, don't you think? Just lightly scaling walls isn't particularly interesting with that's half of Knuckles' character type.

[MRoach]

Originally Posted by Magnemania

Statements like this make it very difficult to take anything you say seriously.

That's the last thing I said, and you are going to completely ignore everything because you didn't like the sarcastic part... I'm not going to take this personally, if I'm being sincere.

[Unknownlight]

Originally Posted by LunickTMM

I feel this just makes him into Knuckles-lite a bit, don't you think? Just lightly scaling walls isn't particularly interesting with that's half of Knuckles' character type.

It feels fun to play, at least. If it zoomed up the wall a lot faster and allowed you to leap off, keeping momentum, it wouldn't feel much like Knuckles.

[MRoach]

Originally Posted by time gear

I'm not actually expecting this to get implemented, but for the sake of discussion I thought I would suggest this idea, see if maybe anyone can think of any improvements to the idea, etc.

Aimable thok: You can aim the thok up and down with the camera, rather than being limited to straight horizontal movement. Aiming it more up makes it weaker, whereas aiming it more down makes it stronger. Can be used to set up great badnik bounces.

I actually think this could be an amazing idea. It doesn't solve any issue, but these "issues" are most likely impossible to completely solve; some will be solved and some won't.
I might add a toggle-able reticle, sort of a crosshair that points where the thok is intended to land or where it where you are pointing your camera (even if you play in third person mode).
The problem comes when you prefer simple mode (no idea how to solve it though).

---------- Post added at 07:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:01 PM ----------

Originally Posted by time gear

Going to use spoiler tabs to save space and categorize the two different things I'm talking about.

Spoiler: Regarding the aimable thok idea to save space

I don't really think aiming Sonic's thok up/down would be that complicated to understand, it would just be really ugly in Software mode. It's incredibly obvious and intuitive that aiming up thoks up and aiming down thoks down, and that because of gravity aiming up is harder than aiming down.

However, if aiming via camera is too big of an ask, the only alternative to achieve the same result I can think of would be to make it so Sonic can cycle between three modes. Forward thok, Downward thok, and Upward thok. This could be cycled either via mouse wheel, 1 2 and 3 buttons, or by pressing spin midair without a shield. This method would lock Sonic in to three set angles rather than true aiming, but it would make it so that you don't need to use the camera to aim at all.

This would give Sonic a few different options to work with. Horizontal thok would be the best for gaining horizontal distance. Downward thok would be the strongest and be great for getting to lower areas in a stage more quickly or for badnik bouncing, and Upward thok would be the weakest but would allow Sonic to gain a little bit of height at the cost of distance.

There would need to be some sort of visual indicator as to which thok is currently enabled however. Overall, avoiding using the camera to aim ends up feeling a lot more complex to me than just aiming with the camera,

For Simple Mode, it could just function the way it already does. Horizontal only, but you can aim in directions other than where the camera is facing.

Spoiler: An alternative idea: Bounce Thok

Continuing with the theme of exploring alternative concepts, perhaps Sonic's thok could cause him to remain in ball form until the player presses jump again to uncurl? While in this state he could bounce off walls and gain a little height at the cost of speed, bounce off the ground, etc. Holding spin without a shield could perhaps even allow him to spin when he lands instead of bouncing for quick and easy access through breakable walls and through spin-only holes. It could become possible to remain in spin state for extended periods of time if a player knows what they are doing.

I like the idea, but these really are complicated ones! I think Cobalt actually discovered a way of make your idea, with the 2nd ability them made; that one did make a double jump and a type of jump thok, but it didn't have the so-called down thok.

---------- Post added at 07:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Unknownlight

It feels fun to play, at least. If it zoomed up the wall a lot faster and allowed you to leap off, keeping momentum, it wouldn't feel much like Knuckles.

You are totally right, Sonic shouldn't climb walls, it has no explanation nor makes any sense with ANY Sonic game.

[Magnemania]

The new Comet Dash is generally an improvement? It feels a bit more thematically appropriate to Sonic now, and without walls, it is essentially the simple, easy to use, air dash I've wanted the Thok replaced with originally.



I'm not an enormous fan of how the comet dash enables low-speed skips. It's somewhat appropriate for new players, but it also allows new players to skip a lot of the basic, forgiving platforming challenges, which tends to result in them failing later on when the comet dash isn't enough to save them (whereas gliding/flying tend to scale all the way to Egg Rock).



I do like how this ends up being a nice tutorialization point for the move, though. I think it might feel a bit better if Sonic went up the wall a bit faster. I think it would flow a bit nicer if it felt more like one was doing a quick spindash up the wall, like a vertical drop dash.

Overall I still prefer Cobalt's air dash, though I'd take this over a double jump.

[Chuckles troll]

Originally Posted by Seaball

1. What are your current feelings on Sonic's thok? Would you say with certainty that it's an unbalanced ability?

2. Would you change Sonic's double-jump to something else if you could? If so, what would you replace it with?

3. Everyone has already been a beginner once. So, in your first ever playthrough of SRB2, how hard was it to get adjusted to Sonic's playstyle? Was the thok so weird you were forced to play as Tails first, or could you handle it normally?

1.The thok is great that why I use Sonic mostly on match

2.Nah it will make speedrun less interesting with Sonic

3.When I used to play with KB only the thok was really inconsistent for me until I use the FPS setup I was able to control it

[Unknownlight]

Originally Posted by XleederTH

You are totally right, Sonic shouldn't climb walls, it has no explanation nor makes any sense with ANY Sonic game.

You misunderstood me: I like the wall climb. While obviously completely different mechanically, it reminds me thematically of rolling up a half pipe in the classic games.

[CobaltBW]

Originally Posted by time gear

I don't really think aiming Sonic's thok up/down would be that complicated to understand, it would just be really ugly in Software mode. It's incredibly obvious and intuitive that aiming up thoks up and aiming down thoks down, and that because of gravity aiming up is harder than aiming down.

I don't think you understand the issue here. Proposing that an ability is controlled via adjustment of the vertical camera position is a concept that completely neglects the impact it will have on keyboard users and some gamepad users who are negatively implicated by it being required.

Mouse users can afford to aim the thok up and down, because all it requires is a flick of the wrist. But this would unnecessarily force gamepad users to modify their control schemes to allow for manual camera panning. I can give you a first hand example of this, as my gamepad control scheme entirely depends on the lock-on button as one of the shoulder buttons for camera movement, with actions on the four face buttons for a conventional platformer control scheme. There's no way I could ensure that it's possible to perform these actions while also touching the right stick, and so this feature would unnecessarily force me to reconsider my layout just in order to use all of Sonic's intended features at a base level.

This isn't even the biggest problem though, as any keyboard user who lacks a mouse must use the arrow keys to turn instead, and in doing so they'd be continuously repositioning the camera into/out of awkward positions by constantly transitioning between two arrow keys which slowly move the camera up and down; the fact that the vertical panning is visually smoothed also leaves the player with very little visual feedback on how long they'd need to hold the key down for to get the camera in the position they want, or (god forbid) back into neutral so that Sonic fires straight forward again.

The entire point of integrating ficklecam into the last update was to reduce the player's control load, and what you seem to be asking for would completely work against. It'd be bad enough for gamepad, but for keyboard-only it would be a complete disaster.

However, if aiming via camera is too big of an ask, the only alternative to achieve the same result I can think of would be to make it so Sonic can cycle between three modes. Forward thok, Downward thok, and Upward thok. This could be cycled either via mouse wheel, 1 2 and 3 buttons, or by pressing spin midair without a shield. This method would lock Sonic in to three set angles rather than true aiming, but it would make it so that you don't need to use the camera to aim at all.

The mousewheel and 1/2/3 isn't feasible, for some of the reasons stated above regarding control load. The "spin" method could theoretically be fit into the existing control scheme, but it would run into conflict with shield actives, which would make it not entirely ideal.

There would need to be some sort of visual indicator as to which thok is currently enabled however. Overall, avoiding using the camera to aim ends up feeling a lot more complex to me than just aiming with the camera,

For Simple Mode, it could just function the way it already does. Horizontal only, but you can aim in directions other than where the camera is facing.

Aiming in all horizontal directions isn't a feature, it's compensation for the fact that controller users don't have the most accessible or precise methods for redirecting their camera position. What you're suggesting here benefits mouse users exclusively to the detriment of gamepad and keyboard only users.

[MRoach]

I see what you mean, you like it but you think Sonic should climb walls faster; I agree.
But I don't feel like Sonic should be able to climb up walls, it feels weird and out of Sonic's capabilities; that's what I feel, at least.

---------- Post added at 10:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 PM ----------

Originally Posted by CobaltBW

...

So, do you think there is a possibility of implementing the ability you already made? The one ending with a D seems like a good idea, I tested it with a Xbox controller I got, tried it with the Mouse and Keyboard as it is the main way I play SRB2; it worked great, it could need some tweaks here and there.

[izzy]

Originally Posted by Chuckles the robo blaster

2.Nah it will make speedrun less interesting with Sonic

A mid-air dash with tons of speed that gets removed upon touching the ground again is the least interesting thing to add to speedruns. It almost makes the spindash totally useless for Sonic. Think about it.

[LunickTMM]

Originally Posted by izzy

A mid-air dash with tons of speed that gets removed upon touching the ground again is the least interesting thing to add to speedruns. It almost makes the spindash totally useless for Sonic. Think about it.

First off, it getting removed upon touching the ground is false, since you can maintain the speed with bunny hopping, which the same argument can be said for spin dash as well.

And there are plenty of reasons as to why the spindash isn't that good. Mostly because when using it, when you jump you have almost no control over your strafing, which means you have to have a very specific angle to get much use out of it without movement augmenting abilities like Fly or Glide.

Also, if you happened to see some of the cooler Sonic strats, thok is extremely key to them. Arid Canyon 1 showcases it well. Heck, it even shows applications the spin dash has that the thok lacks.

The tight angles you can make with thok is also really cool to see once you look at high level runs of Sonic. The only reason thok is viewed as "boring" in speedruns is this idea that you can beat any level fast by spamming thok, which is anything but the truth.

[time gear]

I've been doing some thinking regarding the topic of making Sonic more accessible for beginners, and I reached something of an epiphany. Perhaps we have been looking at it from the wrong perspective. Perhaps Sonic's air ability isn't what needs to be changed to make him more accessible to beginners. Perhaps it's something else that needs to be changed. Something such as... Tailsbot.

The idea I had is this: Perhaps it could be changed so that Tailsbot normally doesn't have quite as much free movement as he does now, but rather is "stuck" to Sonic similar to like in Sonic Heroes. He runs with Sonic, he jumps with Sonic, he even thoks with Sonic. By pressing Custom 1 at any time in the air, the player activates "Tails Assist" mode in which Tails grabs on to Sonic and carries him via flight or swim.

This new version of the carry would be more limited than Tails' normal flight/swim. He can't fly/swim for as long as usual and has a hard time with changing direction (It would keep the thing it has currently where it's forced to rise constantly too). This would be purely for gaining height as needed or acting as a corrective tool, depending on the current situation the player is in.

This would have the effect of making Tails more readily accessible for the Sonic and Tails combination to make use of instead of requiring coming to a dead stop to have Tails grab Sonic, making it more appealing to have Tails following Sonic around. This would act as a great way for new players to play as Sonic and have a height gaining/corrective tool without Sonic's actual moveset needing to be changed or expanded on. For example, if a player playing as Sonic and Tails accidentally runs off a cliff and doesn't have a wind shield, they can just press custom 1 and Tails will grab Sonic and start flying him up to safety.

[CobaltBW]

Originally Posted by XleederTH

So, do you think there is a possibility of implementing the ability you already made? The one ending with a D seems like a good idea, I tested it with a Xbox controller I got, tried it with the Mouse and Keyboard as it is the main way I play SRB2; it worked great, it could need some tweaks here and there.

I won't say it's impossible, but there are some concerns that the directional thrust can throw off tight platforming, particularly for keyboard users. Perhaps with some additional tweaking maybe, but I couldn't give any reassurances.

[Frostiikin]

Originally Posted by Magnemania

What do you have the camera bound to? I can't imagine using it with the right stick; do you use the shoulders or triggers?

My camera IS bound to rstick. I have jump set to rt and spin set to lt, with custom 1 and 2 as my bumpers for use with mods. it's weird at first but after you get used to it i basically have almost as much precision with my thoks as someone with a kb&m setup, with the disadvantage of not being able to turn around instantly and not being quite as accurate, but it's nearly there. Plus, with controller, I have full analog movement, so I think that makes up for it. Being able to move slowly during tight platforming sections is a godsend.

---------- Post added at 12:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 AM ----------

Also, I just tried out the comet dash, and while I do quite like it, I stick by my sentiment that sonic NEEDS to have some way to be faster then the starting 3, and be able to somewhat keep up with metal. As it is right now, the comet dash doesn't allow for any extra speed gain, which with sonic is not a good thing. The easy fix for this would be simple s_skin edits to make sonic's normalspeed a bit higher then the vanilla cast (something around 45 would probably work) but ofc not make it as fast as abusing metal's thok, since use of metal thok takes more skill. what I think everyone is ignoring is that sonic is fast. that's his whole thing. a double jump has nothing to do with speed, and this comet dash has nothing to do with speed. In sonic 3, the insta shield allowed you to phase through enemies if you had enough skill so that you could keep moving even if an enemy is right in your way, and sonic mania's drop dash is well... the drop dash. This comet dash really doesn't do a lot in terms of speed, and that's a major issue. Hell, you could just give sonic dashmode and that'd work too.

[Spiky]

If I may be blunt, I absolutely hate the thok and never understood the logic behind it. Why make it so that Sonic goes faster by spamming a mid-air attack than by running? Kinda misses the point of his gameplay if you ask me. For all the flak the Homing Attack and Boost in the official 3d games get from classic Sonic fans, I find them less detrimental to the formula than the thok. At least they don't make running redundant and suboptimal in speedruns. Spamming Homing Attacks doesn't make you go faster than running, and you're still running on the ground when you use the Boost.


What would I replace it with? Well, how about giving Sonic greater air control? A good way of accomplishing that would be giving him a stomp, and either a double jump or an air dash (ie: a slower and shorter thok). I'd also make his air speed slower (ie: about on par with other characters) while still keeping him faster on the ground. I feel his air speed in older releases like v1.09 made his jumps easier to control and more platforming-friendly. I also find it quite silly how you can reach his max running speed on the air by jumping (even without thoking); you should only be able to reach it on the ground. Lastly, I'd increase his jump's height. The current height feels too gimpy compared to the official games.

I feel changes like those should make Sonic more accessible to beginners (especially when it comes to platforming), while also making running less redundant.

[RomioTheBadass]

To be honest the more I think about it the more I think Sonic doesn't really need a complete ability overhaul, just something like a weaker thok should suffice, some of the suggestions here are to change the ability to something so different, they change the simplicity of Sonic's gameplay style that they might as well just be for completely different characters.

[Rumia1]

I actually think Katmint's Comet Dash would be fine on its own, being tied to the speed the player is currently travelling at. I think that making it a one time use would be better off though as 3 feels a little overpowered. It's fun and feels like a cross between Modern Sonic's air dash and the thok, while making it feel fresh. The hangtime works well and assists in platforming making it a good fit for beginners, while the momentum based factor of it provides a high skill ceiling. Having it be one use per jump with the wall jump mechanic would be a perfect fit for SRB2's normal gameplay in my opinion. Say that he regains a charge of it when he bonks off the wall so you can aim somewhere else or get up a ledge you missed.

[softchassis]

I havent had time to try the comet dash but I'm assuming if you use it on a wall it'll make Sonic scale the wall indefinitely until he hits a ceiling or mounts a ledge? In which case I agree with Rumia's suggestion of tying the amount of wall scaled to the running speed Sonic is at.


(But I also think Sonic is fine as-is.)