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Old 04-09-2020   #61
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Originally Posted by XleederTH View Post
You said it yourself, NEWCOMERS; these are the people who just got into the game and have to get used to the way it's played, and also Sonic is described as an advanced Character and that it's harder to use because it's "uncontrollable".
"Newcomers" are under no obligation to master the game. If they do not like how the game plays when they play as the main character, a very significant percentage of them will drop the game and badmouth it rather than attempting to master the game or switch characters.
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Old 04-09-2020   #62
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"Newcomers" are under no obligation to master the game. If they do not like how the game plays when they play as the main character, a very significant percentage of them will drop the game and badmouth it rather than attempting to master the game or switch characters.
In my experience people who play games tend to try at least one different character if they are having trouble with their first choice. Whenever I play a game with someone, or recommend something and hear back from them, this is exactly what I witness or is described to me. This is also how things tend to go when I watch people play games on Youtube. It's very basic gamer logic that if there are multiple characters available and your first pick isn't working for you, to try something else.
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Old 04-09-2020   #63
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I've never had as much difficulty with Sonic as many people here are making it sound like. People in my social sphere confirm that they haven't had any problems with him. Even people that I have suggested the game too and tried it out have varied in which character is their favorite, but aren't actually complaining about Sonic. Granted, the people I hang around aren't children, but I certainly was one when I first started playing. I may have bumped into walls a lot at first, but I have zero recollection of it being frustrating or difficult as a result. If it was, I probably wouldn't have stuck around all these years, I would have dismissed the game as trash and moved on.

I don't know what data you have available, but Sonic is a simple character to grasp. An ability that propels you forward at great speed might have some subtle advanced applications for those who look for them, but it's not inherently complex to the point that it should be making the game too difficult for anyone. Sonic is only hard in comparison to Tails simply because Tails can fly, so of course Sonic is going to seem difficult when that's the standard people are comparing to.

I do agree that the movement in SRB2 as a whole could probably use some work though, not only in regards to acceleration and the like, but also in regards to how momentum works. 2.2 made great strides towards making the game feel more like the 2D classics, but it's not quite there yet.
You used the word "data", but I should point out in regards to your first paragraph that the plurality of anecdote is not data.

What's also missing from your anecdotes is an analysis of how far they got into the campaign, what control scheme they used, how many characters they had unlocked and whether they've had enough playtime to get an opinion on Sonic compared to the other characters etc. Opinion census is generally not as useful as the hard data itself, and I'm not seeing it on your end either.

I will not claim to have hard data on my side, as I haven't bothered conducting controlled experiments. But I will appeal to the fact that Youtube playthroughs are available for us to look over, and we can observe how many times Sonic players have gamed over in the campaign, how many obstacles they have skipped over with Tails AI, how many times they have used thok, and most of the time we can also observe the control schemes these players are using.

We can also reasonably deduce from the map design how much more difficulty Sonic is going to have getting through the campaign as opposed to Tails and Knuckles. Look at ACZ1 and tell me that Knuckles' playthrough is anything at all comparable to Sonic's. Look at the ERZ2 disappearing blocks section and tell me that Sonic's lower jump and lack of flight options doesn't make him the most difficult character for this section. Look at RVZ1 and the spikier areas of CEZ and tell me that Fang is unquestionably more difficult than Sonic.

Saying that Sonic is "simple" doesn't mean anything. Playing sniper in an FPS is simple, but that doesn't mean that everyone can just pick it up and get consistent headshots.

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In my experience people who play games tend to try at least one different character if they are having trouble with their first choice. Whenever I play a game with someone, or recommend something and hear back from them, this is exactly what I witness or is described to me. This is also how things tend to go when I watch people play games on Youtube. It's very basic gamer logic that if there are multiple characters available and your first pick isn't working for you, to try something else.
Then there's no point in debating whether any character is correctly designed since you can "just try another character".
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Old 04-09-2020   #64
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Saying that Sonic is "simple" doesn't mean anything. Playing sniper in an FPS is simple, but that doesn't mean that everyone can just pick it up and get consistent headshots.
Perhaps "Simple" isn't the right word, but the general intention I am going for is that Sonic's ability isn't really all that complicated either. It's instant speed at the press of a button twice. It's effectively the airboost, complete with the player being in a state ready to damage enemies should they come into contact with them. My instinctual assumption therefore is that the reason it's getting players hurt or killed is because they are using it in situations unsuitable for it, such as during tricky platforming above bottomless pits or around moving stage hazards, situations in which instant speed isn't necessarily your top priority.

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Then there's no point in debating whether any character is correctly designed since you can "just try another character".
That's absolutely silly. Yes, if a character isn't right for you then you can just try another character. That doesn't however mean that balance isn't a valid topic of discussion, as once you start treading into that water there's no reason why any of the characters should be designed around game balance.

Both of these things have to work together. Each character is designed around a gameplay style that is balanced within the levels, but that isn't necessarily right for everyone. Even if Sonic were to be made easier, he still wouldn't be right for everyone, and trying to make him a universally liked character by all who play him just because he's likely to be people's first choice is a futile endeavor.

I do feel like there may be ways to make Sonic more accessible, but I do not feel as though a drastic change such as replacing the thok with the homing attack is the way to do it. The thok itself could probably use some tweaks, but nothing that drastic. There's a number of things that could be tried: Changing how momentum is preserved on the ground, giving it a cooldown, playing around with camera angles, changing Sonic's jump so that his sprites always face the direction he will thok in, etc. However, to go so far as to rip it away from him entirely in favor of a move that only hits things at a set speed and makes you bounce an unchanging distance up with no horizontal momentum remaining just feels like a great way to replace a perceived problem with a new one.
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Old 04-09-2020   #65
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Originally Posted by Magnemania View Post
"Newcomers" are under no obligation to master the game. If they do not like how the game plays when they play as the main character, a very significant percentage of them will drop the game and badmouth it rather than attempting to master the game or switch characters.
I didn't mean to obligate them to master the game, I mean that's what the thok is for, people who master the game. Now, if the devs want more players or whatever, it's a different thing and they might have to change it (some old players might quit, who knows and before it's taken out of context... again, I don't mean old players are what matter the most). It all depends on the devs, but if you ask me as a players who loves this game and has been playing since started gaming, I'd say the thok has to stay or if it changes I'd like a jump-thok instead of something else.

---------- Post added at 03:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:05 PM ----------

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Then there's no point in debating whether any character is correctly designed since you can "just try another character".
I agree for the most part, I actually don't like Fang, Amy, Metal Sonic's play-style, that's why I just stick to Sonic or Tails (Knuckles is too clunky for me but don't dislike it) it doesn't mean they (devs) gotta change them because some players don't like it, they might not even like the game.
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Old 04-09-2020   #66
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Originally Posted by time gear View Post
Perhaps "Simple" isn't the right word, but the general intention I am going for is that Sonic's ability isn't really all that complicated either.
Yeah that's generally what "simple" means. My rebuttal stands. Just because an ability is simple doesn't automatically mean that players are going to have an easier time using it. Knuckles is much more mechanically complicated than Sonic but he's a lot easier to use at a base level because of how his abilities make the campaign easier.



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That's absolutely silly. Yes, if a character isn't right for you then you can just try another character. That doesn't however mean that balance isn't a valid topic of discussion, as once you start treading into that water there's no reason why any of the characters should be designed around game balance.

Both of these things have to work together. Each character is designed around a gameplay style that is balanced within the levels, but that isn't necessarily right for everyone. Even if Sonic were to be made easier, he still wouldn't be right for everyone, and trying to make him a universally liked character by all who play him just because he's likely to be people's first choice is a futile endeavor.

I do feel like there may be ways to make Sonic more accessible, but I do not feel as though a drastic change such as replacing the thok with the homing attack is the way to do it. The thok itself could probably use some tweaks, but nothing that drastic. There's a number of things that could be tried: Changing how momentum is preserved on the ground, giving it a cooldown, playing around with camera angles, changing Sonic's jump so that his sprites always face the direction he will thok in, etc. However, to go so far as to rip it away from him entirely in favor of a move that only hits things at a set speed and makes you bounce an unchanging distance up with no horizontal momentum remaining just feels like a great way to replace a perceived problem with a new one.
I feel like you keep using fallacious arguments to make your point without grappling with the substance of the critique.

You mentioned before how SRB2 is about momentum-based platforming, and this was already addressed via the fact that both Tails and Knuckles' abilities allow them to disengage from this. When it's mentioned that Sonic is too hard and is risking putting off players who are attracted to the title character, you dismiss this by saying "he's supposed to be harder", then "they'll just try somebody else". You've said before how you don't want Sonic to be "easy" mode, but I've already pointed out how this doesn't have to be the case. You're still doubling down on the idea that Sonic's moveset is right for what you'd expect from his character, when it's already been stated numerous times how Sonic's gameplay in SP is way harder than one would expect compared to Tails and Knuckles. And you're also presenting "thok vs homing attack" as if it's the only thing that's been discussed, but I brought up the double jump in my first post and I'm sure at least a couple other people have brought up the dropdash.

I've also pointed out how the thok doesn't need to go away; it could easily go onto Metal, who is described as an "expert" character but doesn't correctly represent that role. But moving the thok as it functionally stands off of Sonic is almost necessary if Sonic's ability is to assist him through the campaign in the way that it needs to, and meager tweaks around the edges aren't going to be sufficient in addressing the needs of players attempting to get through the campaign as him.

I'm not sure how interested you are in being persuaded against your case, considering the arguments you've been using. My main concern is the accessibility of SRB2 to outsiders, and based on whatever observable evidence I could find, it seems pretty clear to me that Sonic's thok is a hindrance to that. I can try to bend over backwards to appease veterans and come up with ways to make the transition as painless as possible, but it's much harder to work with parties who are only interested in making sure that nothing fundamentally changes.
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Old 04-09-2020   #67
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I feel like you keep using fallacious arguments to make your point without grappling with the substance of the critique.

You mentioned before how SRB2 is about momentum-based platforming, and this was already addressed via the fact that both Tails and Knuckles' abilities allow them to disengage from this. When it's mentioned that Sonic is too hard and is risking putting off players who are attracted to the title character, you dismiss this by saying "he's supposed to be harder", then "they'll just try somebody else". You've said before how you don't want Sonic to be "easy" mode, but I've already pointed out how this doesn't have to be the case. You're still doubling down on the idea that Sonic's moveset is right for what you'd expect from his character, when it's already been stated numerous times how Sonic's gameplay in SP is way harder than one would expect compared to Tails and Knuckles. And you're also presenting "thok vs homing attack" as if it's the only thing that's been discussed, but I brought up the double jump in my first post and I'm sure at least a couple other people have brought up the dropdash.

I've also pointed out how the thok doesn't need to go away; it could easily go onto Metal, who is described as an "expert" character but doesn't correctly represent that role. But moving the thok as it functionally stands off of Sonic is almost necessary if Sonic's ability is to assist him through the campaign in the way that it needs to, then meager tweaks around the edges aren't going to be sufficient in addressing the needs of players attempting to get through the campaign as him.

I'm not sure how interested you are in being persuaded against your case, considering the arguments you've been using. My main concern is the accessibility of SRB2 to outsiders, and based on whatever observable evidence I could find, it seems pretty clear to me that Sonic's thok is a hindrance to that. I can try to bend over backwards to appease veterans and come up with ways to make the transition as painless as possible, but it's much harder to work with parties who are only interested in making sure that nothing fundamentally changes.
My position on the issue is that I don't feel as though the thok is as problematic as it's being made out to be. I'm not entirely against the idea of Sonic being given something else, though what I would suggest it be changed to probably wouldn't make anyone any more happy given that the objective seems to be to make Sonic more of a beginner friendly character. This is because if it was a matter of the thok needing to be replaced, what I would replace it with would be the instashield. This would however only make Sonic more advanced and even less mobile, and I would much prefer it was added to his moveset as a secondary ability than outright replacing the thok.

My stance is the same regarding the double jump. I'm not against Sonic being given a double jump entirely, but not as a replacement for the thok. The reason why I mention the homing attack specifically in my previous post is because that's specifically the thing I actually am outright against. I don't mind it on a character addon like Modern Sonic or attached to an unlockable character that requires you to complete most of the game before you gain access to it, but I just feel like the homing attack specifically introduces more problems than it solves and isn't the right way to go about "fixing" the thok.

I feel like there's a lot of potential behind Sonic having access to both a double jump and the thok, I have even suggested as much in other topics. Specifically, allowing him to use both once per jump while super would make for a really interesting upgrade to mobility, though potentially at the cost of not having the hover anymore. For his base form, I would prefer he be limited to one or the other per jump. To strip away the thok entirely from Sonic in favor of the double jump however feels rather limiting to me, as there are situations in which the thok is incredibly useful and satisfying.

I also am particularly against the idea of having to unlock the thok, as it's something that is perfect for a veteran player to immediately get back into SRB2 with after a new version comes out. It's familiar and satisfying to use, and replacing it just to satisfy new players who don't have the patience to give the game a proper chance doesn't feel like the right way to go about things. People viewing a review do generally take into account how long someone played a game, and they are much more likely to be swayed by decades long veterans feeling alienated by a drastic change made to the main character's playstyle than they are by some kid who game overed in their first playthrough and rage quit.

Basically what I'm trying to convey is that I feel like the thok has more merit to it than it's being given credit for in this topic. I don't really feel like me being "swayed against my case" is the right way to approach this, nor am I trying to tell anyone their opinions are invalid in turn. I feel like everyone should be free to make their viewpoints known without needing to be converted to another viewpoint, that sounds like total nonsense to me and is counter to the entire point of communicating viewpoints to begin with.
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Old 04-09-2020   #68
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I do feel like there may be ways to make Sonic more accessible, but I do not feel as though a drastic change such as replacing the thok with the homing attack is the way to do it. The thok itself could probably use some tweaks, but nothing that drastic. There's a number of things that could be tried: Changing how momentum is preserved on the ground, giving it a cooldown, playing around with camera angles, changing Sonic's jump so that his sprites always face the direction he will thok in, etc. However, to go so far as to rip it away from him entirely in favor of a move that only hits things at a set speed and makes you bounce an unchanging distance up with no horizontal momentum remaining just feels like a great way to replace a perceived problem with a new one.
Changing the thok is a hard thing to do and it's proved by the fact that it's always been discussed and also never changed.
A cooldown sounds like a bad idea, it'd repeat Minecraft's case and make SRB2 more tedious; waiting so you can have fun sounds artificial. The Jump-thok might make the game more appealing for players complaining about Sonic being uncontrollable, and also me (a veteran player).
But I guess none likes the idea of jump-thok so I can offer another one too (already proven to be fun): FSonic's jump boost could make sonic more flexible while also keeping him fast and cool, as he's always been.
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Old 04-09-2020   #69
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I would be against Sonic having a proper double jump, giving him more verticality would devalue the game's base jump height and encourage characters in general to have increased jump height or a vertical movement ability.

The jump thok Crum's Advance Sonic has is interesting in that it barely gives any height at all, but resets Sonic's vertical momentum, giving him more air time and flexibility. I feel like a thok with extra air time and altered speed (based on his max speed or current speed, whichever is higher) could be balanced out with the distance Sonic's classic thok covers.

(Basically I really like Advance Sonic's jump thok)

EDIT: I will add on though, losing the ability to keep vertical momentum means Sonic wouldn't be able to thok into things below him, which feels unnatural, at least after years of learning to use Sonic's thok and all the other character's jump abilities keeping vertical momentum.

Last edited by Turret 49; 04-09-2020 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 04-09-2020   #70
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1. What are your current feelings on Sonic's thok? Would you say with certainty that it's an unbalanced ability?
I like it; really reminds me of Sonic's air ability in Sonic Battle - was very useful for maneuvering in that game, same as here (but yeah, I know, two totally different games - one's a fighter and the other's a platformer). I don't think it's unbalanced - Tails, Knuckles, and Fang can all really toss themselves rather far with their abilities, so it seems fine. Do note, though, that I have no experience with multiplayer outside of co-op.

2. Would you change Sonic's double-jump to something else if you could? If so, what would you replace it with?
I'm alright with it as-is, but maybe a double-jump would help with platforming; I really loved that ability in Colors/Lost World and made platforming enjoyable instead of "let's just thok as far as possible to avoid it all"

I don't really see the appeal of a drop dash in this; the thok is like an aerial drop dash, giving you instant speed, which is more useful, in my opinion.

3. Everyone has already been a beginner once. So, in your first ever playthrough of SRB2, how hard was it to get adjusted to Sonic's playstyle? Was the thok so weird you were forced to play as Tails first, or could you handle it normally?
Honestly, I was pretty rubbish at it (back in 2009 when I first played it on 2.0.6 - I played no versions between that and 2.2.2); he was super slippery and his acceleration would have me keep running off of ledges and into enemies. Now that Sonic doesn't always face forward by default, I would forget and thok the wrong direction out of habit of official games (I use a gamepad with xpadder to emulate keyboard inputs, since the game doesn't give the option to invert the camera's X-axis and that's a must for me) and didn't have it on Simple (which is a godsend for controllers) to accommodate the gamepad at the time - I would go to thok left and he'd go forward into a pit (but I honestly had the same issue with making Knuckles jump into pits and glide the wrong way due to actions going where the camera was pointed.) But after playing him for a while and changing the control style/remapping the buttons, I was just fine. I do admit that I used the Sonic+Tails combo for the first few levels on my first try of getting back into it after so long, but once I didn't need the literal hand-holding of Tails anymore as training wheels, I started a new file as Sonic solo. Overall, the thok is great for speed and bypassing certain areas; Sonic is definitely "gotta go fast" in this game, but I do agree that he has a bit of a learning curve. Sonic is a character that rewards skill - he's hard if you're not used to it but really good once you master it. I actually find Fang easier/more enjoyable to use, overall (he's my favorite of the base characters, oddly enough, but I tend to prefer exploring the levels instead of just rushing through them.)

But if the thok really needed to go, I'd say put it on Metal Sonic and give Sonic a double-jump. However, as misplaced as this sentiment is, the thok is almost iconic here; when I think of SRB2, I think of Sonic and his crazy air dash. XD But that's just because I've had this ingrained into me over like 10 years.

Last edited by Natakiro; 04-09-2020 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 04-09-2020   #71
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I really don't want characters to have jump/spin abilities, because it inevitably means that ability will be replaced when you put on a shield. I'm fine with having Mania replace the drop dash when Sonic puts on a shield because the three shield abilities are just as good for momentum as the drop dash if not better, and basically always better for mobility as well. Having a cool separate jump/spin ability means that if you don't want to compromise the characters' movesets when a shield is on, you'll need to add an extra button to the game's controls, probably one that's never used for anything when you're not wearing a shield.
This would be consistent with the shield abilities in all classic Sonic games, though. Mania's shields over-ride the Drop Dash, as you point out, and the 3K shields over-ride the Insta-shield.

Sonic/Tails/Knuckles having a jump+spin ability just means that the starting characters have a "default" shield ability, essentially. It makes them more powerful/versatile and therefore easier, which imo is the right way to position them in SRB2.

---------- Post added at 10:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Magnemania View Post
"Newcomers" are under no obligation to master the game. If they do not like how the game plays when they play as the main character, a very significant percentage of them will drop the game and badmouth it rather than attempting to master the game or switch characters.
I would also add that accessibility is as key to Sonic gameplay as running fast or rolling in a ball, imo. The idea that a player should need to earn or learn to use Sonic properly doesn't fit the ethos of the classic games that SRB2 is drawing upon.

---------- Post added at 10:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 PM ----------

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Basically what I'm trying to convey is that I feel like the thok has more merit to it than it's being given credit for in this topic.
I feel like everyone in this thread has been praising the thok??? If anything, I think the thok is maybe being given too much credit so as not to upset any apple carts.

Even the posts suggesting an alteration are sure to include that the thok is a very fun ability, particularly once you learn it, and shouldn't be scrapped, but maybe it shouldn't be the default ability for the default character.

Quote:
I don't really feel like me being "swayed against my case" is the right way to approach this, nor am I trying to tell anyone their opinions are invalid in turn. I feel like everyone should be free to make their viewpoints known without needing to be converted to another viewpoint, that sounds like total nonsense to me and is counter to the entire point of communicating viewpoints to begin with.
I don't think the entire point of communicating is all talking and no listening. (And I don't think that's what you are trying to say, either). If we're all sharing the same goal of finding the best overall solution, a changing mind isn't a failure or character defect, but a step toward consensus.

I think what Cobalt was saying was that it seems like your position on Sonic's ability is that veteran players should be catered to more than new players, and any change would be fundamentally bad, because it would not be serving the correct audience. But improvements require change, which require flexibility, which is what he was asking for, I think.

Last edited by Moose the Fat Cat; 04-09-2020 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 04-09-2020   #72
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Originally Posted by Moose the Fat Cat View Post
I think what Cobalt was saying was that it seems like your position on Sonic's ability is that veteran players should be catered to more than new players, and any change would be fundamentally bad, because it would not be serving the correct audience. But improvements require change, which require flexibility, which is what he was asking for, I think.
It's not that I am against change, or that I think change is bad, or anything like that. I also don't think veterans should be catered to more than new players, but I also don't think new players should be catered to more than veterans. Or rather, how I feel about it is that Sonic's moveset is something that players have gotten used to over the course of multiple decades now. It is comfortable and familiar, and locking it behind an unlock wall or worse removing it entirely in favor of something entirely different just feels like the wrong way to go about it.

What I'm trying to say is I'm not against the thok being changed, I just don't feel like it needs to be replaced entirely. I would much prefer that the thok be altered and perhaps even Sonic's moveset expanded on, as that is what feels more like the right direction to me. I'm not trying to come off as this grumpy old fool who hates change of all kinds, because I'm not. I just don't feel like accessibility should come at the cost of alienation. I would rather it feel like a constructive update, not a replacement.

I'm all for Sonic being given the instashield or double jump or something else as a secondary ability, I even see a lot of potential in perhaps giving Sonic unique shield powers in addition to what he has currently, perhaps thok based abilities that allow him to do things none of the other characters can do such as the wind shield leaving behind a temporary small tornado that sucks in nearby badniks when he thoks or something.
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Old 04-09-2020   #73
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Originally Posted by Moose the Fat Cat View Post
I feel like everyone in this thread has been praising the thok??? If anything, I think the thok is maybe being given too much credit so as not to upset any apple carts.

Even the posts suggesting an alteration are sure to include that the thok is a very fun ability, particularly once you learn it, and shouldn't be scrapped, but maybe it shouldn't be the default ability for the default character.
That's 'cause it's true. I agree with making Sonic a more accessible character, but I would sooner give every character the thok than I would accept it being removed from the game entirely.

That might be a fun dumb Lua mod, actually. Set it to Custom 1 so you can thok straight into Knuckles's glide while keeping momentum.
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Old 04-09-2020   #74
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That's 'cause it's true. I agree with making Sonic a more accessible character, but I would sooner give every character the thok than I would accept it being removed from the game entirely.

That might be a fun dumb Lua mod, actually. Set it to Custom 1 so you can thok straight into Knuckles's glide while keeping momentum.
Ha, that sounds fun. (And, just to say it again, I also wouldn't want to see the thok removed and I don't think anyone does!)
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Old 04-10-2020   #75
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1. It's fine and definitely have its uses, really nothing else to say, get good get results basically.

2. I'm use to thok and with how the game is designed I can't really see any other ability working better unless you're specifically aiming for making Sonic easier. Thok isn't a beginner friendly ability, but Double Jump would be too good of a safe option for someone meant to be the harder of the trio.

It'd be cool if the game ever got ability options like Mania, where you could pick and choose what you want Sonic to have. Surprised there isn't a wad like this.

3. It's been so many years I don't remember. Knowing me I probably was wondering why the move that propels Sonic forward and does the homing attack sfx wasn't homing on enemies.
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Old 04-10-2020   #76
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Might as well weigh in and strike while the iron's hot.

1. After taking time to consider what's being said in this thread and think about how I actually play this game casually, I've changed my mind on the thok. I don't think Sonic having some kind of air dash is bad, it's been one of his signature moves since 1998. I just don't think this is the right way to do it. When I think of Sonic, I'm expecting him to run fast, not bunnyhop while spamming a weird air ability to avoid this game's ground speed cap. It's about as bad as the boost when it comes to ruining horizontal level design, turning any flat ground or wide open stretches into "thokfests." I introduced some of my friends to this game and one of them just asked me to replace the thok with the homing attack for them. And in my several attempts to play this game on controller, in both standard and simple controls, I avoided the ability like the plague cause it's just impossible to use effectively without the precision of FPS-style controls. I'm not gonna call it unbalanced though because I find the idea of that really stupid and it only has foundation in alternate game modes that are currently very flawed in design and not the focus anymore. Plus it's not ever going to beat out flight in single player, not by a long shot.

2. Lemme go over the options I don't like first.
  • Double Jump - Easily the most boring option and most people don't seem fond of it anymore, at least on the Discord server. I think the Colors-style short hop would be okay, just enough to let Sonic adjust himself in midair but not enough to break level design. It's still not terribly interesting though and would definitely be a sour point for veterans if it was ever in a future update.
  • Homing Attack - I've experimented with this stupid thing more than I've needed to. I don't think the homing attack is inherently flawed in a vacuum, I enjoy it, but it'll need a ton of work to make it good in this game. It's inconsistent on where it'll hit certain enemies, whether that'll kill them, hit a spring they're carrying, or damage you. SRB2's enemies are more often than not throwing out hitboxes so there's not much incentive to actually use it as a combat ability. Its targetting range is really excessive, often going sideways or straight down. And it breaks way more than the SA2 homing attack ever would, getting caught on any and everything. You'd need to recode this whole thing from scratch just to get it going and even then it won't fix interactions with enemies or getting flung into pain when you just meant to jump dash. Plus one of the main designers of the game is entirely against it, so you're not really gonna get that idea off the ground ever.
  • Drop Dash - I like this one a lot in 2D but it's just not the same in 3D. I find myself rolling into walls all the time and it still feels like spamming the thok.
  • Insta-Shield - Don't. This wasn't interesting or all that fun in 3&K and it won't be here. Trivializes boss fights like the homing attack does and now it'd do it to general enemy encounters too, on top of still not helping Sonic with the primary focus of this game: platforming.
  • Momentum Flip - This probably wouldn't stop being as unwieldy for newcomers when it comes to horizontal momentum, from what I've seen, but it'll still function as a double jump. I think that should just stay on Pointy Sonic.

I don't want to seem biased, but I'd prefer a sort of lite version of the moveset I gave Advance Sonic. Drop most of the moves, just leave him with the jump thok and boost mode. Make the jump thok have a super small vertical boost so that he can recover but not cheese platforming. Lower the horizontal speed to avoid thok spam as the primary method of movement, but at the same time let it scale with his speed so it never becomes useless. Tweak boost mode mechanically, maybe similar to the simple character rebalance mod, and then take it off of Metal and give it to regular Sonic. This would likely solidify his identity as the fastest character without having to violate stat normalization and make him more approachable to newbies without completely destroying serious platforming sections.

3. I don't remember my first playthrough all that well. I did have to go to Tails for a bit to get a handle on the game, but the first time I beat the game was with Sonic. It took a good while to get used to Sonic's playstyle. Ringslinger helped with that back when I still played it.
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Old 04-10-2020   #77
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Originally Posted by Crum View Post
I don't want to seem biased, but I'd prefer a sort of lite version of the moveset I gave Advance Sonic. Drop most of the moves, just leave him with the jump thok and boost mode. Make the jump thok have a super small vertical boost so that he can recover but not cheese platforming. Lower the horizontal speed to avoid thok spam as the primary method of movement, but at the same time let it scale with his speed so it never becomes useless. Tweak boost mode mechanically, maybe similar to the simple character rebalance mod, and then take it off of Metal and give it to regular Sonic. This would likely solidify his identity as the fastest character without having to violate stat normalization and make him more approachable to newbies without completely destroying serious platforming sections.
I enjoy playing Advance Sonic quite a bit, but I think the boost mode is something that should be left to mods. I do agree that Advance Sonic's slower, more utility-focused jump thok would be an improvement over the current thok for Sonic as a vanilla character, and the jump thok concept is much more interesting than a bog-standard double jump. I don't think the jump thok would even need to scale with horizontal speed; having it slow down a max-speed Sonic would discourage players from using it on every jump they make, much as how Knuckles and Fang have speed penalties associated with starting up their abilities.

The only issue I'd have with the Jump Thok: we'd no longer have a character that serves as 'vanilla' for the game's platforming challenges until unlocking Thok Metal Sonic, since Tails can easily fly, Amy/Fang have higher natural jump heights, and Knuckles jumps lower than average.

Overall, I'd still fully support switching Sonic to the jump thok.
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Old 04-10-2020   #78
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Giving Sonic a jump thok and giving the thok to Metal Sonic basically means we have two characters with an extremely similar moveset though? I'd rather have M.S. keep the broken hover instead.
I also don't really know what to say about the jump thok; it's a really unique ability, sure - it's both a double jump and a thok at the same time - but imagine trying to jump thok into a platform only to overshoot it because of the horizontal speed gain. Seems like it'd just cause more controversy than a normal thok at this point...
I'll say it again but removing Sonic's ability and making him faster than the rest of the cast in base normalspeed is still my preference. It fits in with the Genesis-esque vision the game is being built in, and although it makes Sonic harder than the rest of the starting cast, well, he always has been, even back in 3K. I do not think that removing his ability is plausible - at the moment - though, especially because of the weird acceleration code, but I wanted to make y'all think about if Sonic being faster on foot again 'd be a good differential or not.
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Old 04-10-2020   #79
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Originally Posted by Moose the Fat Cat View Post
This would be consistent with the shield abilities in all classic Sonic games, though. Mania's shields over-ride the Drop Dash, as you point out, and the 3K shields over-ride the Insta-shield.

Sonic/Tails/Knuckles having a jump+spin ability just means that the starting characters have a "default" shield ability, essentially. It makes them more powerful/versatile and therefore easier, which imo is the right way to position them in SRB2.
I know it would be consistent with the classic games, I think you misunderstood what I said a bit. I was saying it's excusable for the drop dash to be replaced by a shield ability in Mania because the other shield abilities invite mobility just as well, which cannot be said about the SRB2 shields should they replace a jump-spin ability. Shields are power-ups and should ideally add new abilities, not replace an existing ability.
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Old 04-10-2020   #80
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I always thought that the thok just needed some changes, not that it needed to be completely replaced. I was thinking make it more like the air dash from existing 3D games, but better. The thok could be weaker but instead of kind of aiming to the ground it could aim slightly up so you get more air with it. The FSonic mod kind of has a thok like that, where it angles up more, and it feels way better for platforming. I think if the thok were weaker it would be more suited to saving the player from missed jumps by letting them dash back to platforms. You can already do this but the power and angle of the thok makes it hard for new players to control it without panicking and killing themselves. There's a few problems with this though, like how making the thok weaker slows you down when going max speed in the air. There's that great mod by Katmint though that changes the thok so it always at least boosts your speed by 10, this would be good but just a bit weaker so the thok could always be a bit of a jump extender. You could also roll out of a thok in that mod, which I also think is a great idea especially if the thok were nerfed in power. Another problem is that Sonic wouldn't have as much speed horizontally, and I don't know what do do about that. Maybe a drop dash just for speed or a stat increase to run speed or spin-dash? Sorry if this was poorly conveyed, I'm not very good at formulating my thoughts but I really wanted to give some input.
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