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Old 12-13-2019   #41
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Someone in this thread mentioned that ERZ(both acts) suffers from a lack of a real guitar now, and I want to echo that. I think a real guitar is exactly what it needs, as there's just a somewhat hollow feeling in the current instrumentation. I'm not a musical genius I can't really describe it any other way.

Something I'm surprised no one has brought up are the Special Stages:

I *really* miss the old Mystic Realm themes, especially in how they were remixed for the Music Remade soundtrack. In that, Magma Caves was by far my favorite song in the soundtrack, but now it's probably the most forgettable, to the extent that I went and copypasted it into 2.2's vanilla music file so I could have something I was happier with.

Egg Satellite is an entirely different vibe altogether, and while I actually like it quite a lot, I still preferred when it used Mystic Realm Zone's theme, especially Cobalt's remix of it. I liked the more triumphant feeling of racing against the clock yet being cheered on by the hopeful sound of the music to finally get that last emerald.

Toxic Plateau, though, OH BOY. This one is an underrated banger from start to finish, and is definitely a star in the new soundtrack. I jam out to this one all the time. The guitar line is just so energetic and rocks out like nobody's business, it's stellar.

tl;dr it's ok i guess
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Old 12-14-2019   #42
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Originally Posted by Puppyfaic View Post
Someone in this thread mentioned that ERZ(both acts) suffers from a lack of a real guitar now, and I want to echo that. I think a real guitar is exactly what it needs, as there's just a somewhat hollow feeling in the current instrumentation. I'm not a musical genius I can't really describe it any other way.
People keep saying it needs real guitar, but it already has it! In fact, I can show you what it sounded like with sampled guitars before Shane performed it live:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oq...lxBIvm4cLFbOtA
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1tj...weBdMI-Mi3XxIo
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Old 12-14-2019   #43
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Oh I absolutely love the new soundtrack as a whole - it feels so cohesive stylistically and the motivic use throughout is excellent. Highlights for me were DSZ, CEZ (especially the bridge collapse!), and BCZ - oh man, both Metal Sonic themes are amazing. The only track that really felt out of place to me was ACZ2; I like the music, but it keeps feeling a little too relaxed for the level and relative to the rest of the OST. Of course I have some nostalgia for certain old tracks (old ACZ1 had really nice charm to it, and the electric guitar in old ATZ is so aggressive and I love it) but even in those cases the new tracks live up to their predecessors very very well. Kudos to all involved.

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P.S.: ACZ3 is a banger!!
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Old 12-14-2019   #44
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I've enjoyed 2.2's soundtrack a lot. I definitely still have nostalgia for 2.1's tracks, and don't remember 2.2's soundtrack by heart yet, but I still very much like 2.2's soundtrack.

However, while I like Deep Sea Zone Act 1's music on its own, it doesn't feel right in Deep Sea Zone to me. The style and/or overall melody feels far too different from 2.1's DSZ1/DSZ2 music, and even from 2.2's DSZ2 music, to me. Which makes sense, considering that...
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[...] The irony is that this track was never meant to be a serious proposal for [DSZ1]; Shane described it as a "joke track" he made in a few hours to make Deep Sea Zone sound like Ecco the Dolphin. [...]
...but it still doesn't feel right in Deep Sea Zone to me, even if the music itself is nice.

All of the other music feels appropriate for its use to me, it's just this one act that feels odd.
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Old 12-14-2019   #45
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...but it still doesn't feel right in Deep Sea Zone to me, even if the music itself is nice.
Really? Deep Sea Zone feels like the most Ecco-ish of all the levels in the game, and I'm not just saying that because of the water. There's a lot of exploration, the pacing is a little more slow, the architecture itself FEELS dark and deep... even if its a little less puzzle oriented than the last one (although I did find a couple simple puzzles).

If you want to talk musical dissonance, I think Sonic 1 is actually a far worse offender with Labyrinth Zone. Nothing like drowning, getting speared, and shot by waterproof fireballs while listening to such happy music. (shudders)
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Old 12-14-2019   #46
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Really? Deep Sea Zone feels like the most Ecco-ish of all the levels in the game, and I'm not just saying that because of the water. There's a lot of exploration, the pacing is a little more slow, the architecture itself FEELS dark and deep... [...]
Yes, but I haven't played Ecco, so any resemblance to Ecco's soundtrack doesn't affect me positively (nor negatively).

I'm not saying that Deep Sea Zone Act 1's music doesn't fit in the level style or trope of Deep Sea Zone Act 1... but when I think of "Deep Sea Zone music", I think of the main piano melody featured in 2.2's act 2 and both acts of 2.1. Neither that melody nor even a piano in general seems to be in 2.2's act 1 music, based on my memory of having played the first act for over half an hour just now to collect emblems, which is why I don't feel that it fits in "Deep Sea Zone".

(And in 2.2, Deep Sea Zone seems to have a completely different main melody and theme in the music of act 1 and the music of act 2; In my opinion, the other zones have a slight difference in melody or theme from one act to the other, not really much difference in both at the sime time, let alone as much difference as between Deep Sea Zone's acts.)


TL;DR: 2.2's DSZ1's music fits nicely in the style/trope of Deep Sea Zone, just not in Deep Sea Zone specifically, in my opinion, because that I'm used to the main piano melody from 2.1.
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Old 12-14-2019   #47
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I think right now Deep Sea act 1's theme is my favourite off the soundtrack, I criticized it before but it's a song that grows on you with repeated listens (I also never played Ecco btw).


While I replaced a huge part of the new soundtrack with the old one, and playing through it, I've learned to appreciate both soundtracks so much more, and more equally! (Though I'm still meh about arid canyon, I've found a few remixes in the old soundtrack of it and damn, they sound so much better.)


I love both old and new now. Yeah it did sound off to me hearing such a different melody for act 1, and act 2 suddendly having the more faithful feel to it, but it eventually grows on you. I've said it too many times at this point but, big props to Shane and Cobalt for this arrangement!
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Old 12-14-2019   #48
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Originally Posted by CobaltBW View Post
People keep saying it needs real guitar, but it already has it! In fact, I can show you what it sounded like with sampled guitars before Shane performed it live:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oq...lxBIvm4cLFbOtA
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1tj...weBdMI-Mi3XxIo
I think when we say this, we (or at least I) refer to ERZ2's section that reprises the old main guitar riff melody that was present in the old versions of both acts. Currently, that part is done via synth(?) and it doesn't sound as nice, and doesn't happen as often in the song as it should IMO :(
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Old 12-14-2019   #49
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I think when we say this, we (or at least I) refer to ERZ2's section that reprises the old main guitar riff melody that was present in the old versions of both acts. Currently, that part is done via synth(?) and it doesn't sound as nice, and doesn't happen as often in the song as it should IMO :(
Oh! I understand now. In truth, that section originally wasn't going to reference the old solo at all, but I did so because I wasn't satisfied with the solo line I had built up to that point, and the old solo seemed like an appropriate callback. The reason it's represented with a saw synth lead, besides putting a new spin on the old solo, is because that gelled better with the rest of the composition, which was already predominantly guitar. I prefer not to stick with one lead instrument for too long, or else it causes the song's tone to become stale. If I were to replace the instrument with guitar, then I would want to reconsider other elements of the song in context, such as the verse leading up to the solo.

I also avoid using the same solo more than once as a general rule, because solos are rambling in nature and usually do not focus on a central idea or motif to help orient the listener. For that matter, if the song is going to ramble at multiple points in the song, you may as well have different rambling melody lines as opposed to the same one over and over. The old solo is way too long in order for me to just copy and paste it anyway.
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Old 12-15-2019   #50
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Honestly ERZ doesn't sound bad. I just keep telling myself they don't fit THIS Egg Rock Zone, and the tracks will be better suited in the remade versions, and it's all fine, mostly.

The rest of the OST is a banger, though. Deep Sea 1 is my favorite - it just sells the underwater temple theme so well!
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Old 12-15-2019   #51
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TL;DR: 2.2's DSZ1's music fits nicely in the style/trope of Deep Sea Zone, just not in Deep Sea Zone specifically, in my opinion, because that I'm used to the main piano melody from 2.1.
So basically you've just become used to the old tune and prefer it. That's a matter of taste and I can respect that. I expected to feel the same way about ACZ because I have a lot of memories tied up to that tune and the level in general... but I think a lot of the changes in the game have been for the better.

If the biggest and most frequent complaint about the OST is just the fact that it's different and people have fond memories of the old versions, I'd say they did a good job.
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Old 12-15-2019   #52
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Frankly, I love the entire soundtrack, top-to-bottom, especially ACZ and ERZ. I really like how ERZ mixes in the boss motif too. And of course there's the special stage themes(I immediately changed Black Hole's song to SPEC8 btw.)
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Old 12-15-2019   #53
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For me, I disliked some of the new tracks at first (I loved the old ERZ and RVZ themes, and DSZ1 felt off to me at first), but they have grown on me quite a bit.

The only thing that disappoints me is the new NiGHTS special stage themes, as I was hoping for Mystic Realm revamps rather than, at least what I think are, new themes entirely. This is due to a biased reason, Tempest Valley/Cavern Fortress was hands down one of my favorite tracks on the pre-2.2 OST, if not my #1 favorite. That being said, I have only gone through each special stage once (Managed to beat Egg Satellite with only one second left lol), so I'm sure as I try to A rank them the tracks will grow on me.

Doesn't help either that despite downloading the 2.2 soundtrack I haven't been listening to them on my own time because DAGames released Press Start Together yesterday right after I downloaded the soundtrack, and I've been listening to that song non-stop.

Can I also say I love the decision to bring back the old 2.0 special stages and their theme for multiplayer? I don't like them as much as the NiGHTS ones, but I still enjoy them and love seeing them back with the same revamps that the main game got between 2.0 and now.
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Old 12-15-2019   #54
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Since this thread has kinda become the unofficial soundtrack discussion thread for 2.2, I might also give my two cents on this matter.

It is really difficult for me to differentiate between which part of a track I really like because of the overall quality of the composition and which parts I am primarily fond of for nostalgic reasons. There have been instances playing through 2.2 where I found myself being positively surprised by some of the extended tracks with higher sound quality and better instrumentation, at other parts I felt that the reimagined takes on classic tunes strayed too far from the originals even when considering the changes and additions made to the associated zones.

It has been mentioned before that some of the design decisions in 2.2 (not only regarding sound design) make Sonic Mania come to mind and that certainly isn't a bad influence. However, when looking at the music, I feel like some of the more adventurous compositions do clash a bit with the intended themes of the levels. ERZ2 sounds too upbeat, RVZ1 really suffers from the decrease in BPM especially considering the speed-oriented gameplay even in the remade version. AZ1 takes the components of the somewhat simplistic original and goes just that tad too far in the other direction, it's too busy for my taste. This criticism can be generalized somewhat, as I feel that overall some of the leads can seem a bit overindulgent, but maybe that's just me.

Other pieces like GFZ2 (great guitar), CEZ1 (very moody) and THZ2 (great use of synths) are absolutely fantastic however and really benefit from the added ideas.


One more note though that really veers into even more subjective territory: I'm absolutely not a fan of using elements from official Sonic games. While it was a real surprise to
Spoiler:
hear some Sonic 4 tunes off all things alongside Stardust Speedway for the Metal Sonic race,
I am simply not convinced that this a good stylistic decision.


I apologize if this comes off as overly harsh, that's just my way of analyzing things. It's very obvious that there are some mighty talented composers behind the new OST and I certainly wouldn't campaign for going back to the old one. I personally would reconsider some of the decisions made for the tracks of later zones of the game, but maybe that sentiment will also change over time.
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Old 12-15-2019   #55
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However, when looking at the music, I feel like some of the more adventurous compositions do clash a bit with the intended themes of the levels. ERZ2 sounds too upbeat, RVZ1 really suffers from the decrease in BPM especially considering the speed-oriented gameplay even in the remade version. AZ1 takes the components of the somewhat simplistic original and goes just that tad too far in the other direction, it's too busy for my taste. This criticism can be generalized somewhat, as I feel that overall some of the leads can seem a bit overindulgent, but maybe that's just me.
I feel that ERZ2 and RVZ1 are edge cases that could really go in either direction. ERZ2 does comprise of a lot more methodical gameplay, but there are other sections where the pressure is more constant and relies more heavily on speed. RVZ1's rolling rock sections in particular tend to play slower. Making a song that fully encapsulates the spectrum of moods in a level naturally becomes a difficult balance. I enjoyed the old RVZ1's tempo if only because of how different Red Volcano sounds with it. Ideally, I would have every zone where both acts utilize pacings, just because I enjoy the musical variety that creates. As you've said though, it's important that the pacing of the tunes are closely in sync with the levels they're built for.

My melody lines tend to be rather bombastic by default, so you have mostly me to blame for that. :p
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Old 12-15-2019   #56
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Hi, first and maybe only time poster. I don't really like engaging in forum communities, but I've been a big fan of the game for little over a decade, and I felt too strongly about this topic to just keep my opinions to myself.

I want to preface my complaints my first saying that I absolutely adore most of the new soundtrack. The tracks are great arrangements of the originals, adding their own touch while still being reminiscent of the soundtrack I already loved. Every act I couldn't wait to hear the new song awaiting me. And I eagerly anticipated Egg Rock the most. Act 1 and 2 were my absolute favorite tracks of the original by far, and I couldn't wait to hear what amazing things had been done with them. Then I got to the stages, where I was met by utter disappointment. That amazing guitar melody I loved so much was nowhere to be found. The original tracks managed to set an amazing tone for the levels, giving an air of menace and climatic finality while hearkening back to the best of Sonic Adventure's fantastic soundtrack, particularly tracks like Crank Up the Heat. And I don't understand why they were so radically changed. I can still hear old GFZ in new GFZ. I can still hear old ACZ in new ACZ. But what remains of old ERZ is so little the tracks are less new arrangements of the old songs and more entirely original songs lightly inspired by the old tracks. And while they're not bad songs, they just don't live up to the originals. Of particular note is the guitar that has so much electronic fuzz that I genuinely can't tell if its real or not. Fake guitar never sounds as good as the real deal, so I don't understand this choice. And I can't lie, when I found that Aerial Garden, a track I always found incredibly uninteresting and just another item on the list of things I don't like about that zone (which is bigger than the list of things I do like about that zone), got an incredibly faithful arrangement, yet ERZ didn't, I was a bit peeved.

I don't like the new Metal Sonic track, either. The original had this great sense of frantic urgency, perfectly encapsulating the desperate race against the bot. The new track just doesn't have that same tone. Additionally, in a time where the official franchise keeps pandering to nostalgia, I'm not a fan of the same thing happening in this game. I've heard Stardust Speedway so much I'm almost sick of it, which is quite an achievement, considering how good that song is. When the rest of the soundtrack is entirely original, aside from some of the bonus levels, it's jarring to hear one of the final tracks suddenly go all "remember these old themes?" on me.

I'd like to reiterate that I love the majority of the new soundtrack. The talent and effort behind it clearly shows. I'm just absolutely baffled and disappointed by the changes to what used to be my favorite songs in the game.
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Old 12-16-2019   #57
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One more note though that really veers into even more subjective territory: I'm absolutely not a fan of using elements from official Sonic games.
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Additionally, in a time where the official franchise keeps pandering to nostalgia, I'm not a fan of the same thing happening in this game. I've heard Stardust Speedway so much I'm almost sick of it, which is quite an achievement, considering how good that song is. When the rest of the soundtrack is entirely original, aside from some of the bonus levels, it's jarring to hear one of the final tracks suddenly go all "remember these old themes?" on me.

I'd like to reiterate that I love the majority of the new soundtrack. The talent and effort behind it clearly shows. I'm just absolutely baffled and disappointed by the changes to what used to be my favorite songs in the game.

I'd just like to put on the record that SRB2's theme being based on the 'Sonic & Knuckles' track from Virtual Sonic was discovered posthumously. We were several years on into development when I finally got my hands on that CD (young generation can't relate to the 'net back then and the inaccessibility of information) and was just piddling along, listening to the CD when all of a sudden HOLY SHIT.

A big design ethos of Sonikku's was to not lift anything from official games and to be totally original material. I got beat over the head a few times about this early on, actually.

I'm not passing any judgement on what should be taken as design direction moving forward. From my personal taste, I think the Stardust Speedway felt out of place, but the Sonic 4 reference seemed to blend well. But that could just be because I played very little of Sonic 4.
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Old 12-16-2019   #58
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I don't like the new Metal Sonic track, either. The original had this great sense of frantic urgency, perfectly encapsulating the desperate race against the bot. The new track just doesn't have that same tone. Additionally, in a time where the official franchise keeps pandering to nostalgia, I'm not a fan of the same thing happening in this game. I've heard Stardust Speedway so much I'm almost sick of it, which is quite an achievement, considering how good that song is. When the rest of the soundtrack is entirely original, aside from some of the bonus levels, it's jarring to hear one of the final tracks suddenly go all "remember these old themes?" on me.
This is a really weird complaint to me. Why would a song for a Metal Sonic race not reference the closest thing he has to a theme song? It's not like Eggman, where's he had a myriad of themes over the years and thus you expect the game to have a new composition--Metal Sonic in a Classic Sonic context and Stardust Speedway Bad Future are nearly inextricable, for better or for worse. BRZ1 NOT referencing it would feel strange, to be honest.

Also Stardust Speedway leitmotif is an amazing track and I'll never get tired of hearing it to be blunt lol
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Old 12-16-2019   #59
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Just a little window into my thought process, for those interested in understanding the changes between the old and new. Generally speaking it is my philosophy to take elements which defined the original of a soundtrack and turn them into something more. Egg Rock is the one roadblock in the soundtrack where that strategy seemed to stop working for me.

Part of the reason I went with such a dramatic departure on ERZ is because I felt the old tracks didn't give me anything useful to work with. The identical solo taking up the entirety of both acts felt like bad form, so I didn't want that. The solos contained no leitmotif, so I couldn't draw anything from there. There was no variance in song progression, so that didn't help. The chords felt sloppy to me because the bass implies different root notes than the chords which come afterward, so I didn't want to copy that. That basically left me with the bass and the drumline. At the time, we were also expecting Metal Sonic to still be the third act of ERZ, so I wanted to tie those pieces together somehow. So I modified the bassline to incorporate more of the new Metal Sonic tune's bass "hook" which had been created.

So what little is left of old ERZ is sort or interspersed between the two tracks. ERZ1 still holds a similar tempo, incorporating the old bass line and similar percussion to its predecessor, and ERZ2 is much more aggressive in its deviation, only referencing the original solo about halfway through. I knew this would probably be a contentious decision, but I went through with it this way because I wanted ERZ to sound more appropriately like "Sonic" music, and I didn't feel I could do this while honoring the main sticking points set forth by the originals.
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Old 12-16-2019   #60
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Just a little window into my thought process, for those interested in understanding the changes between the old and new. Generally speaking it is my philosophy to take elements which defined the original of a soundtrack and turn them into something more. Egg Rock is the one roadblock in the soundtrack where that strategy seemed to stop working for me.

Part of the reason I went with such a dramatic departure on ERZ is because I felt the old tracks didn't give me anything useful to work with. The identical solo taking up the entirety of both acts felt like bad form, so I didn't want that. The solos contained no leitmotif, so I couldn't draw anything from there. There was no variance in song progression, so that didn't help. The chords felt sloppy to me because the bass implies different root notes than the chords which come afterward, so I didn't want to copy that. That basically left me with the bass and the drumline. At the time, we were also expecting Metal Sonic to still be the third act of ERZ, so I wanted to tie those pieces together somehow. So I modified the bassline to incorporate more of the new Metal Sonic tune's bass "hook" which had been created.

So what little is left of old ERZ is sort or interspersed between the two tracks. ERZ1 still holds a similar tempo, incorporating the old bass line and similar percussion to its predecessor, and ERZ2 is much more aggressive in its deviation, only referencing the original solo about halfway through. I knew this would probably be a contentious decision, but I went through with it this way because I wanted ERZ to sound more appropriately like "Sonic" music, and I didn't feel I could do this while honoring the main sticking points set forth by the originals.

I think ERZ is great, people need to get used to it, I really don't want to go back to the old one.
P.S. the synth preset for 2:20 in ERZ2 is SICK!
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