Wooile Vs. SRB2

It was overall fun to watch this YouTuber's playthrough (I enjoyed his sidekick in particular) but it was a bit painful watching the last third of Woolie's campaign as he was still struggling with basic movement even at the end (due in part to skipping a lot of "lessons" with Tails)

If "Autobrake" can be a menu option for advanced players, I don't see why "Homing Assist" couldn't also be a menu option for relative beginner players, like Woolie.
 
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Your car racing analogy is pretty hilariously indicative of someone who's never driven a car fast outside of Mario Kart, but that's beside the point.


What does that extra layer of control offer, either to skilled players or new players, that makes up for complicating the process of coming to a stop? If I want to move at a speed below my maximum in the air, it's pretty simple to tap a movement key in a particular rhythm to stay there, and nothing in SRB2 that you'd expect a human to be capable of doing needs exacting momentum control beyond that. If I want to adjust to a specific angle outside of straight forward or diagonal, it's easier to adjust my camera to line up than to try to get there with gentle taps of movement keys. (Both of these even become easier when playing on an analog stick, which offers finer control.) If I'm moving above my maximum speed, momentarily releasing the movement key to slow down works exactly the same as holding backward would without autobrake anyway.


On the other hand, autobrake offers the ability to come to a quick stop without moving my finger out from above the W key, allowing me to get back to moving forward much quicker. It also gives the ability to come to a total stop in mid-air and drop straight down, which is practically impossible without autobrake if only due to how difficult is it to judge your precise momentum in the air. (Some shield abilities mitigate this, but they're situational and have their own tradeoffs.)


I can see disabling autobrake just as a preference because you've played the game for years and prefer it that way, but I don't think it actually offers any objective benefit to the gameplay to do so.
 
it was a bit painful watching the last third of Woolie's campaign as he was still struggling with basic movement even at the end (due in part to skipping a lot of "lessons"

This is often the Woolie experience honestly. I like the guy but he can be infuriating. Latches on to some things really hard and never lets go, or gets really disappointed when something he assumed on no evidence turns out to be wrong. He played through the whole of Knights of the Old Republic with combat automatically pausing after every turn just in case he needed to abuse the bug that lets you use two medkits in one turn. Not to discount his experience as there's plenty of other people who approach games like that out there, but be aware of where he's coming from.

E: Also, he will have been conscious of the audience and having to keep the momentum going for them, hence skipping platforming sections that he probably would have taken the time to figure out if he was playing it on his own time. Most people don't want to see the guy struggle and fail on the same couple of jumps over and over. It's his job to not bore them, after all.
 
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Fickle, I get that it's more complicated. There are additional steps involved in manual braking, and that's why it's not default! However all of the things you describe doing with automatic braking can indeed be done with the manual braking, and if you've practiced with it it's just as natural. Turning auto-brake on actively makes me play way worse. I actually rely on the manual braking, and I've seen others who feel the same.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with you for preferring the auto-brake. You are free to control the game however you'd like. However there is merit to the manual braking giving the player options that the auto-brake disallows. I object to your statements that manual braking provides no gains and auto-brake should be forced when in fact I know that for a significant percentage of people that's not the case. Just because a control method is less accessible does not make it inferior or useless.
 
Fickle, I get that it's more complicated. There are additional steps involved in manual braking, and that's why it's not default! However all of the things you describe doing with automatic braking can indeed be done with the manual braking, and if you've practiced with it it's just as natural. Turning auto-brake on actively makes me play way worse. I actually rely on the manual braking, and I've seen others who feel the same.
This is kind of what I was trying to elude to, though I don't think I explained it concisely.

It effectively comes down to muscle memory. Changing the autobrake is a lot like changing the air friction, and many players who've been around the block for a while may be used to how little friction Sonic has in the air and using that to their advantage to allow for more granular control, just as they're used to having to hold back to reduce it further.

I've tried autobrake on and autobrake off and I've found them both to play fine. While autobrake off does add an extra step, it isn't so complicated that I would say it is directly inferior; at the same time, Sonic's rate of change in air control is so granular either way that I don't think autobrake off provides anything incredibly unique over autobrake on. They're just two means to the same end.
 
This is often the Woolie experience honestly. I like the guy but he can be infuriating. Latches on to some things really hard and never lets go, or gets really disappointed when something he assumed on no evidence turns out to be wrong. He played through the whole of Knights of the Old Republic with combat automatically pausing after every turn just in case he needed to abuse the bug that lets you use two medkits in one turn. Not to discount his experience as there's plenty of other people who approach games like that out there, but be aware of where he's coming from.

E: Also, he will have been conscious of the audience and having to keep the momentum going for them, hence skipping platforming sections that he probably would have taken the time to figure out if he was playing it on his own time. Most people don't want to see the guy struggle and fail on the same couple of jumps over and over. It's his job to not bore them, after all.

I haven't watched him before, but you're right that a lot of other people who approach games like he does. (I don't, personally, but I'm also not recording my play-throughs and narrating over them.)

It's valuable to see him play as a "rookie" though because it gives you some additional empirical data of where beginners get frustrated.

It's not that the customer/player's complaints are always valid — usually the opposite, right — but if the same note keeps coming up in different places, then it's probably worth looking into.
 
It's kind of frustrating how lots of new players completely miss the Simple controls option, and once they learn that it exists, they are already used to the standard, gamepad-unfriendly controls. And it's quite telling how almost every complicated platforming segment was skipped over via tails...

Gotta say, I definitely agree. Simple controls should be a much more accessible option for new players. I use them and the game controls like a dream, I love it.

Maybe upon booting the game up for the first time, or starting a new game, the game presents the option of "Simple" vs "Standard," or maybe it can be presented as "GamePad" vs "Mouse & KB."
 
Gotta say, I definitely agree. Simple controls should be a much more accessible option for new players. I use them and the game controls like a dream, I love it.

Maybe upon booting the game up for the first time, or starting a new game, the game presents the option of "Simple" vs "Standard," or maybe it can be presented as "GamePad" vs "Mouse & KB."
Yeah, I agree that the name needs to be changed. "Simple" just sounds patronizing, and I know that if I didn't know better I'd never pick it just cause of the name. It sounds like it would dumb down the game for idiots, when it's actually just a different camera style.


Maybe "Manual Camera" and "Auto Camera" would make more sense, with the default changing based on which controller (KB/Pad) is being used to navigate the menu. The descriptions of these modes don't need to be a whole paragraph either - simply describe that manual camera is best for using KB/M and that auto camera is best for using a controller. "Legacy mode" should be removed from this menu and directionchar should be its own menu option.
 
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Yeah, I agree that the name needs to be changed. "Simple" just sounds patronizing, and I know that if I didn't know better I'd never pick it just cause of the name. It sounds like it would dumb down the game for idiots, when it's actually just a different camera style.


Maybe "Manual Camera" and "Auto Camera" would make more sense, with the default changing based on which controller (KB/Pad) is being used to navigate the menu. The descriptions of these modes don't need to be a whole paragraph either - simply describe that manual camera is best for using KB/M and that auto camera is best for using a controller. "Legacy mode" should be removed from this menu and directionchar should be its own menu option.


I absolutely agree with this. I always got somewhat of a condescending tone feeling when seeing Simple vs Standard. I don't want to repeat what Krabs said too much, but all things considered this is a change I can absolutely vouch for. Word choice is incredibly important, and I hope that this gets changed in a future update.
 
Yeah, I agree that the name needs to be changed. "Simple" just sounds patronizing, and I know that if I didn't know better I'd never pick it just cause of the name. It sounds like it would dumb down the game for idiots, when it's actually just a different camera style.
Forreal. The last thing a Sonic the Hedgehog game should do to its players is patronize them, lol.

Maybe "Manual Camera" and "Auto Camera" would make more sense, with the default changing based on which controller (KB/Pad) is being used to navigate the menu. The descriptions of these modes don't need to be a whole paragraph either - simply describe that manual camera is best for using KB/M and that auto camera is best for using a controller. "Legacy mode" should be removed from this menu and directionchar should be its own menu option.
Definitely. Maybe every time you start a new game you can be presented those options, with the 3rd additional option of "Custom" or something, wherein you are brought to the control options menu and can create your default playstyle.

I think that very blatantly laid out control options can go a long way. I had to tinker with the options for a little bit before I found something that worked for me, but the only reason I did so was because I had years of hype predating me playing the game, that and I'm a huge Sonic fan. Trying to convince a casual platform game lover to play this game without coaching them through every step is very difficult.

I think a game such as this needs to be as simple as possible to jump into. "Easy to play, difficult to master" as they say. Not everyone needs to be a master player, but just about every gamer should be able to play a few levels and say "wow that was fun!"
 
Forreal. The last thing a Sonic the Hedgehog game should do to its players is patronize them, lol.
...
I think a game such as this needs to be as simple as possible to jump into. "Easy to play, difficult to master" as they say. Not everyone needs to be a master player, but just about every gamer should be able to play a few levels and say "wow that was fun!"

Strong agree, I've been saying the same. Sonic is not Sonic if he's not easy. If that part isn't right, the whole broth is spoiled. Or in this case, it's not spoiled, but requires a refined palette or a lot of patience and ideally both.

SRB2 is somehow both the most and least accessible Sonic game ever made, at the same time.

Fortunately, the things that make it less accessible are adjustable and correctable.

Unfortunately, I think those adjustments aren't included not for ignorance of the possibility but because the decision is already made.

The Tutorial is recommended and strongly advises KB+M, though also offers custom options and encourages you to give it some time to experiment and adjust. The controls are adjustable, the tutorial is a great accessibility feature, but you don't have the option to adjust the overall accessibility of the game.

In other words, the difficulty isn't a choice because it isn't an accident. The difficulty in each moment is a choice built on choice built on a series of choices that required a lot of time, care, consideration put into each choice by multiple people.

I think there's a detectable attitude in the DNA of SRB2 for whatever reason that is a bit patronizing... in the sense that it is catering to the patronage of the existing user base and SRB2 being mostly PC gamers on top of it, it becomes the thing of making the game for each other in a bubble. This is part of what makes it great, also. You can feel the love, care, attention, and thought put into every detail.

"Casual" and "Simple" and "Beginner" and so on... for some reason including these modes can be taken as a personal affront to the veteran gamer (and not without reason if the difficulty options aren't accessible from the beginning). The veteran gamer doesn't have the time or the patience to play this game again in "baby" mode. That's fair enough. And it should be as fair to the other version. The baby gamer doesn't have time or patience to play hard mode until they become hardened.

But even the easiest easy mode you could imagine would probably still be difficult to someone. And maybe that person needs to be in consideration as much as the player who makes the hardest hard mode look easy.

Until very recently (and still it's the prevailing attitude though I'm glad to see it changing), game developers worldwide seemed insistent for decades that Easy Mode was simply intolerable, and if it merited inclusion, it just couldn't also be real mode. SRB2 is this way about it — Tails is easy mode, but you're not really completing the game, you can get all the emeralds but you can't go Super. You beat it with an asterisk.

Some of the difficulty in SRB2 is over the top in a way that feels like an inside joke— moments like the elemental shield surrounded by coils in THZ (link to thread); backward springs in Castle Eggman 1; lava room in Black Core 1 — it's like... lol, why are you doing this? Who are you spiting here?

Those "aha! gotcha!" moments feel intended for advanced players, but to the new player, it feels like a sucker punch.

It's a version of gamer elitism that manifests as sort of nerdy snarky bullying. Penny Arcade, or every webcomic about gaming ever made, or any gaming community ever assembled. There's a gamer fetish for difficulty linked to satisfaction, not realizing what is satisfying to one is not necessarily satisfying to another.

And it can then feel needlessly cruel by forcing the player to essentially memorize the layout (BC1, EZ1) in order to advance. (See: Woolie video). To the dev or experienced player, these are very intentional, presenting a tricky test requires a strong degree of control over your abilities and lightning-quick reaction time, recognition, decision making, and coordination.

SRB2 is supposed to be hard, I understand. That "hard is good" is a matter of preference; I don't think SRB2 is good because its hard. It IS good, and it IS hard, but adding an easy mode doesn't make either of those less true. I think a lot of game developers see it as being an affront to their work, and the degree of care to which they put into each specific challenge.

But the game is already difficult without also flogging the new player for not already being the veteran player. SRB2 is heavier on platforming than any Sonic game in 2D or 3D besides maybe CD, and each level's platforming challenges become more difficult than the last. You can see this in the Sonic Abilities thread, I think there's a cultural element of resistance to the idea of making Sonic significantly easier, or having clear difficulty options in the base game. There's some agreement that Sonic could be different, Sonic could be easier, or Sonic could be better, but not agreement on all 3 at the same time or how that works.

So it makes sense how the game's evolution would be shaped by these cultural preferences and attitudes, it's just a choice I disagree with and one that increasingly feels dated and exclusionary.

A friend of mine put it this way about a different platformer, sarcastically saying "You know what I love, is spending 30 hours playing a game to completion, only to be given a C and told I have to do better next time. It reminds me that I need to spend my time on a hobby that doesn't insult me for using it."

"Easy Mode" should be like subtitles. It is an accessibility feature. It's subtitles for motor skills.


tl;dr -- Let the hard ways die. Sonic should be easy!
 
tl;dr -- Let the hard ways die. Sonic should be easy!

I'm with you to an extent. I dont think this game should be easy, per say, but it should have a low skill floor. What this means is that picking up and playing the game should come naturally to the player, and the game environment should be able to foster the player practicing how to control the main character.

And guess what? This game accomplishes the latter in spades. Possibly better than any other 3D Sonic game. The first few zones, especially the first one, are playgrounds for the player to get used to controlling Sonic. I still just run around them for fun despite finding the emblems because they're just so damn fun to explore! It's just the opening moments of the game deciding your control scheme need to be streamlined for this to be a near perfect product.

IMO, the game should open up asking the player "How would you prefer to play?" - it then gives you the options of M&KB and GamePad, whichever you pick it puts you into either "Simple" or "Standard," but also reminds them that the controls can be changed whenever in options. This would go a long way towards providing easily accessible options for the player without patronizing them.
 
I'm with you to an extent. I dont think this game should be easy, per say, but it should have a low skill floor. What this means is that picking up and playing the game should come naturally to the player, and the game environment should be able to foster the player practicing how to control the main character.

And guess what? This game accomplishes the latter in spades. Possibly better than any other 3D Sonic game. The first few zones, especially the first one, are playgrounds for the player to get used to controlling Sonic. I still just run around them for fun despite finding the emblems because they're just so damn fun to explore! It's just the opening moments of the game deciding your control scheme need to be streamlined for this to be a near perfect product.

IMO, the game should open up asking the player "How would you prefer to play?" - it then gives you the options of M&KB and GamePad, whichever you pick it puts you into either "Simple" or "Standard," but also reminds them that the controls can be changed whenever in options. This would go a long way towards providing easily accessible options for the player without patronizing them.

I mostly agree. Especially with how fun it is to replay each Act as a playground.

It's so amazing because you literally cannot do that in any other Sonic game. I guess there's Sonic Utopia but that's just one level.

I've made the suggestion elsewhere that it would be fun to have achievement-based Missions as a bonus or an excuse to replay. Even just as a Mod. Like, I've never cared enough before in a Sonic game to "clean out" a level of all enemies or rings... but in SRB2 it's so much fun to just zip around, I find myself making up little objectives like that.

When just the act of movement is fun in a game... for me that's when a game is able to become GOAT tier.

PS4 Spider-Man
Zelda BOTW
Any 3D Mario
Rocket League
Sonic Mania / SRB2

That might be my desert island top 5 games, with indecision on which Mario and which Sonic.

So, you know, all of my suggestions/criticisms are coming from the same place -- a place of love, and the feeling that SRB2 could possibly be the most fun Sonic game in the franchise period, if not overall best.... I mean, it isn't. Or it isn't yet, in my opinion. It gets in its own way more than it needs to like I said in the above post. But frankly, it's not an impossible bar to clear; the Sonic franchise doesn't have that many peaks, certainly not in 3D, and beyond that you're competing against Mania and games from 1993 or earlier.

I'm not saying SRB2 is the best looking, showiest, most expensive. But as the most fun to actually play? On those merits, SRB2 has a shot at the crown, and maybe it gets there or maybe it doesn't... but even with the imperfections and incompletion, 2.2 might already have it, for me. For whatever that's worth.

Either way I feel like it could/should have a bigger audience to play and appreciate it.
 

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