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-   -   Two Small OLDC Notices (https://mb.srb2.org/showthread.php?t=36539)

darkbob1713 11-13-2011 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystic (Post 718876)
I'm not doing a Big Brother "I know what's best for you so sit down and shut up".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystic (Post 718876)
I'm saying it with the intent to do what's best in the long term for the OLDC as a whole.

Umm...really?

Also, I don't mean to insult you, but it just really bugs me how you always think you're right. Not once have I seen you consider anyone's opinion on anything before. And if you really can't fix the netcode, then why not? SRB2CS was able to do it, and I was able to netgame properly for the first time in years with few flaws that were easily ignored.

MascaraSnake 11-13-2011 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkbob1713 (Post 718880)
And if you really can't fix the netcode, then why not? SRB2CS was able to do it, and I was able to netgame properly for the first time in years with few flaws that were easily ignored.

SRB2CS trades off latency for accuracy. I wouldn't call tons of unregistered hits "easy to ignore flaws".

darkbob1713 11-13-2011 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiritCrusher (Post 718882)
SRB2CS trades off latency for accuracy. I wouldn't call tons of unregistered hits "easy to ignore flaws".

Well, it's better than being unplayable. In a platforming heavy game like this, I'd rather be able to jump when I hit the button and have occasional ring misses than jumping when the game feels like it and shooting when the game feels like it.

MascaraSnake 11-13-2011 01:41 AM

Oh come on. This discussion is age-old and well all know that the solution is to either host yourself or only join servers with a ping you consider tolerable. It's not like all netgames lag so much that they're unplayable.

Mystic 11-13-2011 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkbob1713 (Post 718880)
Umm...really?

Also, I don't mean to insult you, but it just really bugs me how you always think you're right. Not once have I seen you consider anyone's opinion on anything before.

You probably weren't aware, but this was actually discussed at length in #srb2fun before I posted this announcement trying to gauge how much hatred it would generate. The only reason we're even AT this point is because of years of public opinion and public discussion about circuit and what to do about it. I actually decided I wanted to make this change four MONTHS ago but decided to wait to make sure that it was the right decision to make, and look more at the public opinions and whether my personal opinion matched public opinion. A lot of people seem to think that because I don't immediately back down upon negative feedback that I'm not listening to them or I don't respect their opinion. This is most definitely not the case, but just because I respect your opinion doesn't mean I agree with it, and while a few decent points have been thrust forward against what I'm doing, I really haven't seen anything significant enough to make me want to reconsider removing the circuit division from the OLDC. Remember that the people that tend to reply to topics like this are those that really don't like the change. Those that are on the fence or like the change aren't nearly as likely to reply to the thread because negative emotions tend to be the ones that get people up in arms on the internet. Don't take the relative ratio of posts in this thread to mean that there is some kind of majority opinion against the change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkbob1713 (Post 718880)
And if you really can't fix the netcode, then why not? SRB2CS was able to do it, and I was able to netgame properly for the first time in years with few flaws that were easily ignored.

This statement is pretty laughable and if I were you I'd drop this train of thought before you make a fool of yourself. SRB2CS is horrifically buggy in its own way, only supports a few parts of the game, and introduces its own massive list of problems. Obviously there are better netcode implementations out there than the one we're currently using, and I'd love to use one, but SRB2CS is definitely NOT it, and we do not have the people with the technical expertise necessary to make a solution that actually is passable at solving the problem.

darkbob1713 11-13-2011 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiritCrusher (Post 718884)
Oh come on. This discussion is age-old and well all know that the solution is to either host yourself or only join servers with a ping you consider tolerable. It's not like all netgames lag so much that they're unplayable.

Hosting my own server is a solution, but I have to wait at least 20 minutes before I get a reasonable sum of players. If I'm lucky enough and don't quit out of boredom because I realize I could be playing something else.

Servers with tolerable ping don't matter.

First of all, most of the servers have low playercounts, high pings, are casual servers, or are coop servers with 14 wads I don't want to download. So I join the obvious choice on this list: ClockWork's Server. It has a nice ping, nice playercount, and is on CTF.
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9150/serversr.png
The game froze up every 5 seconds or so, had a considerably annoying control lag, and was indeed unplayable.

I'd really appreciate it if CS was at least supported as an alternative for people like me so it gets the respect it deserves.

Mystic 11-13-2011 02:05 AM

Well, it's in the releases section so you can go ahead and use it if you'd like. The fact of the matter is that most people don't use it because it doesn't implement all of the basic parts of netplay, never mind operate properly. If you're having a bad experience with our shitty netcode, I'm quite sorry, but unless you're going to tell us that you have the miraculous talent to fix it yourself, it's not like we can do a whole lot about it.

Now honestly, I'd suggest dropping this train of thought because I REALLY doubt you want to argue the point "You guys can't fix SRB2's netcode, so you guys should just give up on netplay entirely and not fix problems in the netplay that you CAN deal with", even as a devil's advocate. Even with all of the persistent netcode problems, I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that 2.0's netplay isn't an improvement over, say, Demo 4.

Fawfulfan 11-13-2011 03:57 PM

Mystic, you're right to say that most people like Circuit better in theory than in practice (I am once such person). But I think we're kind of ignoring the elephant in the room here: Circuit is blatantly broken right now, and until we fix the glaring flaws, how are we supposed to say with certainty that the whole gametype is a failed experiment?

Seriously, why don't we ax the lives system, add a Spectator Mode for latecomers, and see what that does to Circuit's popularity? Maybe it'll do nothing, and maybe it'll foster a renaissance of interest in the gametype...we can't say for sure that people wouldn't want a fixed version of Circuit until we actually offer them one. All we can say right now is that Circuit in its current state is garbage.

If a new version of SRB2 features a polished Circuit, and nothing changes, then fine, I'll support its removal from the OLDC and its eventual death. If people actually take notice, and the Master Server fills up with crowded Circuit servers, then let's keep it.

Maybe it's just me...after all, I'm the guy who, for over a year, held out hope that I could transform Spacewalk Zone into something enjoyable. But I'm just saying I don't think it makes sense that we should consign Circuit to a slow descent into defunctitude without first trying to iron out its obvious problems and seeing what happens.

Monster Iestyn 11-13-2011 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fawfulfan (Post 718901)
Seriously, why don't we ax the lives system

Funnily enough, that's already been done for 2.1.

Ezer.Arch 11-13-2011 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystic (Post 718885)
Remember (...). Those that are on the fence or like the change aren't nearly as likely to reply to the thread because negative emotions tend to be the ones that get people up in arms on the internet. Don't take the relative ratio of posts in this thread to mean that there is some kind of majority opinion against the change.

Agreed, the relative ratio of posts can't be taken seriously to tell us what people think about.

Remember also that there are few people that gave up discussing [on it] or just find [it] meaningless doing so.

MascaraSnake 11-13-2011 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fawfulfan (Post 718901)
Seriously, why don't we ax the lives system, add a Spectator Mode for latecomers, and see what that does to Circuit's popularity?

Those are not the reasons why Circuit sucks. Sure, the lives system doesn't belong in Circuit (and has actually been removed for 2.1), but it can be easily circumvented by giving everyone 99 lives, so it's not really a game-breaking flaw. Likewise, there should be a spectator mode for people who join during a round, but if you really don't feel like waiting for the latecomers to finish, then skip to the next map manually. Not an elegant solution, and I agree that there should be a spectator mode, but again, this is hardly a game-breaking flaw.

No, Circuit doesn't suck because of any technical problems but because it's such a shallow gametype. I'm not gonna repeat everything said in this thread, just read through Mystic's several lengthy rants and you'll understand why he wants it removed. Of course, your mileage may vary; maybe you like Circuit despite being so shallow. But that's the reason why Mystic is trying to phase out Circuit, and it's not a flaw that can be fixed without more or less revamping the whole game.

Didn't we already talk about this before?

Ice 11-13-2011 07:26 PM

I guess we'll just have to see in this upcoming contest. Anyone who wants to keep circuit can put all their effort into making a map to prove their point. Who knows? Maybe the circuit entries in this division will be so overwhelmingly good that Mystic will completely change his mind and keep it forever! Or maybe they'll be unfun and inconsistent like usual and Mystic has a point. Onward to the next contest!

Fred 11-13-2011 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ice (Post 718907)
Mystic will completely change his mind

Hate to be a troll too, but hahahahaha

NeroTheArmadillo 11-13-2011 11:54 PM

Why no race maps?

Didn't anyone see it's gonna have LESS maps than the normal?

akb778 11-14-2011 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeroTheArmadillo (Post 718913)
Why no race maps?

Didn't anyone see it's gonna have LESS maps than the normal?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystic (Post 718357)
Effective for the January/February 2012 contest, the circuit division is discontinued. The November/December 2011 contest will contain the last circuit division in the OLDC. Circuit is an unbalanced game mode that nobody can really agree on what good levels are, so it really isn't a good choice of gametype for what is intended to be a feedback mechanism for improvement of level design skill.

^This.

10chars

NeroTheArmadillo 11-15-2011 04:10 PM

It's still a mode where people can vote.

D00D64 11-15-2011 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeroTheArmadillo (Post 718972)
It's still a mode where people can vote.

And nobody knows how to vote in it due to how varied the opinions on a "good race map" are. Perhaps you should actually READ the posts here to understand why, since you're obviously skipping the point entirely.

kyllian1212 11-27-2011 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiritCrusher (Post 718905)
if you really don't feel like waiting for the latecomers to finish, then skip to the next map manually.

Or you could just use exitlevel. Nah?

Mystic 11-27-2011 11:16 PM

That's what SpiritCrusher means by going to the next level manually.

Gemini Spark 12-03-2011 05:29 PM

There's still going to be Circuit maps in SRB2, right?


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