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-   Outdated Official Level Design Contest (2.0.X) (https://mb.srb2.org/forumdisplay.php?f=99)
-   -   Two Small OLDC Notices (https://mb.srb2.org/showthread.php?t=36539)

Monster Iestyn 11-03-2011 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrome (Post 718507)
-Change Circuit maps to Sprint type maps

Just design Circuit mode with a start and finish, and remove the whole lap system.

Uh, that would ruin the whole point of Circuit mode, wouldn't it? You might as well go for the Single Player levels themselves instead to Race like that.

Mystic 11-03-2011 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrome (Post 718507)
Just plain removing it from the OLDC isn't going to solve anything. It's the only time we ever got any interesting Circuit maps in the first place

I'm not trying to solve anything. I'm trying to sweep a mess under the rug. The suggestions you outlined don't really fix the problem, either. Ringslinger simply makes the start of the game interactive before quickly degenerating into the same thing, with each player out of sight of each other. Traps and other hazards will end up hitting everyone equally in the end, and removing the lap structure is even more pointless. Just play race on single player stages; they're more interesting anyways.

There is no quick fix to solve the problem in circuit, and to be honest nobody is really interested in spending the real time and effort that would be necessary to turn it into a fun, interactive gametype. To even put a dent in the problem we'd have to completely revamp the stage design entirely, put in a Mario Kart style of weapon system with weighted item odds giving the people in the back an advantage, and completely tear apart our character ability system. Even AFTER implementing all those changes, there's the definite possibility that the mode would STILL suck and not be any fun. To put it bluntly, the time and energy necessary to fix it are simply not worth the results.

Chrome 11-03-2011 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monster Iestyn (Post 718509)
Uh, that would ruin the whole point of Circuit mode, wouldn't it? You might as well go for the Single Player levels themselves instead to Race like that.

I would call it a last resort suggestion, since there haven't been many great designs for a Circuit map. And even if it were just a start and finish, it would still have the gates that close shortcuts and weapon panels scatted around the map.

Mystic, if the time needed to fix it is not worth the results, then why keep the gametype in the game?

ST218 11-03-2011 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrome (Post 718511)
Mystic, if the time needed to fix it is not worth the results, then why keep the gametype in the game?

Don't tempt him. He is the biggest proponent of axing Circuit like it's a condemned criminal, and for (obviously) fairly good reason.

Mystic 11-03-2011 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrome (Post 718511)
Mystic, if the time needed to fix it is not worth the results, then why keep the gametype in the game?

Because you all would whine and moan excessively, like when I had chaos axed.

Kitoko 11-08-2011 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrome (Post 718511)
Mystic, if the time needed to fix it is not worth the results, then why keep the gametype in the game?

Well, Chaos is still in SRB2, and you can still enable it too (It just takes work) Point is, why remove it when it has no replacement? There's no real valid basis on REMOVING it. Sure, it's one of those under-played game types like Classic Race, but why nix it? I don't know anyone who wants Circuit removed completely.

Mystic 11-08-2011 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitoko (Post 718671)
why remove it when it has no replacement? There's no real valid basis on REMOVING it.

Because it sucks. I'm not going to remove it at this point, but there are plenty of good reasons to remove it with no replacement. The first and most obvious one is that we don't want people to load up SRB2 multiplayer for the first time, select a mode at random and land on circuit, and discover it royally sucks. Many players wouldn't even TRY the other gametypes because that first one was so bad, and never try netplay again.

EternallyAries 11-08-2011 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystic (Post 718672)
Because it sucks. I'm not going to remove it at this point, but there are plenty of good reasons to remove it with no replacement. The first and most obvious one is that we don't want people to load up SRB2 multiplayer for the first time, select a mode at random and land on circuit, and discover it royally sucks. Many players wouldn't even TRY the other gametypes because that first one was so bad, and never try netplay again.

Never try netplay again? Well that kinda on the wrong side if you ask me.

Sure the circuit maps sometimes sucks. But it wont mean they wont ever play a netgame again.

They just will move onto the CTF or match maps for now. And play race later.
And look problem solve. ^_~

Mystic 11-08-2011 01:56 AM

That's not how it works. For most people, their first impression of something is extremely important. If your first impression of SRB2 netplay is "wow this sucks" or "I'm not having any fun", you're not likely to try again later.

EternallyAries 11-08-2011 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystic (Post 718684)
That's not how it works. For most people, their first impression of something is extremely important. If your first impression of SRB2 netplay is "wow this sucks" or "I'm not having any fun", you're not likely to try again later.

Well you do have a point indeed.

They most likely wont look at the game again if the netplay sucks like you said.

But there a good chance they will pick it up again and try it out for the hell of it. I seen other done that lots of times. So this really don't make much of a change at all.

Ice 11-08-2011 04:51 AM

"This sucks balls" was my first impression of circuit. Until I found out about F12 and started watching the skilled players. Honestly, some people can thok.

Which is not to say that I'm against removing it. Circuit has always been meh, IMO. It's a little ironic though, isn't it? Match and CTF gametypes work leagues better than RACING in a SONIC game. Doom's roots spread deep :D

kyllian1212 11-09-2011 05:09 PM

Nooo!
Dont remove the circuit division! D:

SRB2PlayerFan 11-09-2011 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyllian1212 (Post 718736)
Nooo!
Dont remove the circuit division! D:

The Circuit division is going to be removed wheter you like it or not. We are getting tired of arguing over what circuit is the worst and what circuit is the best. Plus, people who make circuit levels don't put too much effort into it.

Simsmagic 11-09-2011 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SRB2PlayerFan (Post 718741)
Plus, people who make circuit levels don't put too much effort into it.

I agree, I've never personally put REAL effort into any of my circuit levels.

Charybdizs 11-10-2011 04:51 AM

Seeing as no one else seems to have pointed this out to you yet, I'll take it upon myself to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SRB2PlayerFan (Post 718741)
Plus, people who make circuit levels don't put too much effort into it.

That is nonsense.

You don't think Blade puts a lot of effort into his many race maps?
You don't think Internet Explorer put much effort into her race map Lost Feelings Island?
You don't think KOTE and ThunderNova put a lot into Spring Factory Zone?
You don't think Fawfulfan tried very hard on Wacky Tesseract?
You don't think Kuba did his most on Sunken Cave Zone?

Think again. At very least, least don't talk in such silly extremes. Though there's been the doozies, there have been gems, just like any other gametype. It's unfair of you to discredit all the people who have put their hands and hearts into making a good circuit map.

Mystic 11-10-2011 04:58 AM

Yes, and for every outlier you just listed, there have been ten to twenty completely garbage maps with no effort put into them. Obviously he's not saying that every single person ever to attempt it is lazy; he's saying that the majority are.

Charybdizs 11-10-2011 05:11 AM

And how is that any different from match or CTF? We've had our fill of trash maps there too. Heck, most contests are on average 5-6 maps with only two of those being anything you could call good.

However, he did make an extreme, and knowing him, he probably meant it. :p

Mystic 11-10-2011 06:38 AM

I think it's more that bad circuit maps tend to immediately end up unplayable, while bad match and ctf maps just end up mediocre and boring, and sometimes even end up oddly compelling because they're flawed in a manner that actually makes them interesting to play even though they suck.

Fawfulfan 11-10-2011 01:16 PM

If I may give my two cents here, I grudgingly understand why Circuit should go (even though it means one less division to have fun with), but at the same time I think it should come back once the gametype itself has been cleaned up. The whole concept of Circuit is a mess right now, which is a large part of why bad Circuit maps break the gametype in a way that bad Match and bad CTF maps don't.

Having lives, for instance, is a terrible idea...as I understand it, this has already been fixed for the next version. Also, people who belatedly join a circuit round should exist as spectators only, so that they won't be on their first lap while everyone else is coming in for the big finish. For that matter, I don't even think we should allow the person in last place to complete the race.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystic (Post 718756)
I think it's more that bad circuit maps tend to immediately end up unplayable, while bad match and ctf maps just end up mediocre and boring, and sometimes even end up oddly compelling because they're flawed in a manner that actually makes them interesting to play even though they suck.

I understand where you're coming from on this, but I think you may be exaggerating a tad. Match may be pretty stable in this regard, but we've seen more than our fair share of CTF maps that totally break the game (Canyon CTF, Castle CTF) as well as some CTF maps that actually look decent but are still broken (Misty Mire). Come to that, there are nearly as many Single Player levels as Circuit levels which are broken beyond salvation (White Mountain, much of A Cat's old work). At the same time, we've seen plenty of badass Circuit maps (Thunder Factory, to name the most obvious example, and Lost Feelings Island), and plenty of bad Circuit maps which are still perfectly playable.

My biggest fear is that by dropping Circuit entirely from the OLDC, we'll discourage people with actual talent from working on such maps. When was the last time someone with a single straight-up level dumped it in Releases instead of submitting it to the contest? It happens, but it's pretty rare. I can certainly attest that without the contest format as a showcase, I wouldn't have bothered to make Wacky Tesseract or Girder Detour in the first place.

Shadow Hog 11-10-2011 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystic (Post 718756)
I think it's more that bad circuit maps tend to immediately end up unplayable, while bad match and ctf maps just end up mediocre and boring, and sometimes even end up oddly compelling because they're flawed in a manner that actually makes them interesting to play even though they suck.

MI.


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