Spindash, Boost, their co-existence, and possible innovation moving forward

[Metool_Man]

All I have to say is Both Boost and Spindash can't co-existence as they both function as two different game-styles, Boost for Modern & Spindash for Adventure plus they can't be in the same game because Boost is/going to be definitely better than the spindash if they both in the same game together, they only way it can CO-EXISTENCE is to do what Frontiers did, function like the Boost but with momentum ONLY for Open-Zone (and as a unlockable), for traditional Boost games... don't add it lol because it's unnecessary, "But the Rush games has the spindash and THOSE was boost games!!!!" yeah, those was 2D games, not fully 3D, so my point still stands

The Boost and Spindash as we know them cannot co-exist, which why I attempted to balance both of them with the other in mind, but it looks like nobody really liked the idea, so I've nothing else to offer except, yeah, splitting them up again.

At this point, I'd relegate Boost gameplay to a Mach Speed-like section, where Sonic automatically Boosts forward, and you can hold B to enter a Spinboost-like state, in which state he can also drift (it also just looks cool), and he can also press X to Slide and Stomp.

Then the normal gameplay style would practically be Adventure 1 mixed with Adventure 2, with A to Jump, Homing Attack and Airdash, B to Spin/Dropdash, X to Bounce and Slide, and Y to do misc. actions such as the Light Speed Dash.

What do y'all think about this one?

---

Also, don't worry, time gear. You never came off as hostile. I'll highlight the same 3 points you brought up so we can see each other's views easily.

Spoiler: 3 Points

1. The Matter of the Boost vs. the Spindash
The moves ARE very similar, but no matter how many points are brought up, I just can't be convinced they're the SAME.
The Spindash I am specifically talking about is the incarnation of the Spindash from SA1, not the idea of Sonic Spindashing in general.

So, to clear things up, from here on out, I'll be referring to that specific Spindash as the Spamdash. I am not talking about Spindashing as a whole, I am talking about the Spamdash, where you hold B to charge up, and release to burst forward.

Now that I got that out of the way - I think the Boost and the Spamdash serve the same general purpose but differ in 3 major ways...


1a. Use Case
The Boost is to almost always be used during a Boost stage, whereas the Spamdash is to assist you periodically through Adventure Stages. The Spamdash (as in mashing B, not the specific KIND of Spindash I'm referring to) itself is a bit broken, but requires skilled application throughout the entire stage, plus is an unintended mechanic, differing it from the Boost's general speed Boost.


1b. General Mechanics
The Spamdash has a charge state, which you can use to build up speed to launch yourself forward, which you can bypass if you simply want to start spinning. The Spamdash only boosts you initially, and it's up to you after that. While spinning, Sonic gradually loses speed, but, when Sonic is going down a slope, he gains much more speed than if he simply ran down it. However, trying to spin uphill will get you nowhere.
The Spamdash also functions as an attack.

The Boost serves as a button to hold down to continually boost yourself forward, hence, the Boost. The Boost makes it that you travel a flat speed across all kinds and angles of terrain, and damages enemies, as well.

The Spamdash is a much more versatile mechanic, as you can tell from the differing lengths in the paragraphs.


1c. Power
The Boost is a much more powerful tool than the Spamdash, because it has less cons and more pros. We'll quickly go over that...

Spamdash:
Pro: Versatile
Pro: Not tied to a meter
Con: You must hold the button to gain speed from a standstill
Con: Only gains speed initially
Con: Slows down after a bit
Con: Slower in comparison

Boost:
Pro: Very fast
Pro: Continually keeps you at that speed
Pro: Easy to use - just hold the button
Pro: If you ever start slowing in the state, you're pushed back to the top speed
Pro: Meter is actually incredibly easy to maintain
Con: Tied to a meter

The Boost has many more pros that the Spamdash, which explains why they can't coexist in the same kit, if we implement them as they currently are officially.


2. The Matter of which Design Mentalities are Better
"Ultimately any one person is going to like what they like, and that's fine." This is inarguably a huge part of this whole general argument between the Spamdash and the Boost, and I mean outside of this - I'm talking about the myriads of other Sonic fans arguing between them.

"However, there is a little bit of objectivity that can be drawn from; the series roots and what design mentalities have resulted and larger popularity and sales. Innovation is an iterative process that relies heavily on feedback, and it's always important to remember from where you've come so as to not lose your way."

After coming back and rethinking my first proposition, I'm not quite sure it really needs much innovation anymore (see the top of the post).

Honestly, combining both playstyles by having each stage finish off with a chase-scene sort of set piece, in where Sonic Boosts forwards automatically (with the lack of a meter now, I might add) might just make both sides happy without really compromising either playstyle in any way.


3. What Your Proposition Actually is
I'm gonna have to resort to using the ("previous retort" - retort) strategy to respond to some of your points here, if I deem it necessary.

Your whole post, along with my responses will be contained in this sub-spoiler...

Spoiler: time gear's Proposition

I think a big part of the pushback against my proposition is born of the bias of thinking of boost and spindash as being different abilities, and then holding preference towards one or the other and then seeing the flaws of whichever thing you don't prefer in my idea. The issue with this is that my proposition ultimately isn't about boost or spindash; it's about an ability that utilizes the same core concept that makes up both of them and innovates beyond what either of them were in the past. I firmly believe it's important that for games to innovate and improve, you can't be stuck in the past. At the same time however, you can't forget your roots either.

Spoiler: Point

You make a very good point about biases towards one ability or the other. However, I just don't see how the Spindash, specifically the Spamdash and the Boost are the same ability. They just aren't. Again, with the Mario comparisons, just because the Jump and Long Jump serve similar purposes and look similar does not mean they are the same - and while the differences between the Spamdash and the Boost aren't quite the same as the differences between the Jump and the Long Jump, they're still comparable enough to get my point across.

I don't believe that neither the Spamdash nor the Boost need to be innovated on any further, after looking back on my old proposition and providing my new one (see the top of the post). The Jump hasn't been innovated on in years, and if a new mechanic were suddenly tied to it or if it was suddenly changed into some odd version of itself, I'm sure a lot of people would be upset.

It's the Boost VS. the Spamdash. The fans want one or the other, perhaps both, if contained in separate environments. Your proposition has many good ideas within it, but I'm not sure it's going to fix the problem.

These are two core principles in what I am proposing; the ability that I am suggesting is reminiscent of both boost and spindash, and serves the same purpose in a practical sense. However, functionally my proposition is different; speed is tied to rings, there's no boost meter, skillfull play is rewarded with more speed, which also introduces more risk but rewards those who can overcome that risk with faster clear times. It draws from how the "spindash" has been handled in the past in regards to physics interactions with the environment, but also draws from how the boost has been handled in regards to risk vs reward and interacting with hazards and obstacles.

Spoiler: Point

See the point above, too. Even though you propose many good ideas, it's the Spamdash VS. the Boost. This might make many happy, but some others will still be advocating for the pure return of the Spindash.

I realize that when you want to try and solve this problem, you got to ask yourself - will this stop people from asking for SA3? Of course, only factoring in the gameplay.

This mechanic might actually result in a 3rd ability for fans to target in an argument too, Spindash Vs. Boost Vs. Ringburst?

Ringburst is a name I came up with just to show you an example.

Regarding the matter of rings, it's rather apparent that the lives system is on its way out and score doesn't always show up either. The score time rings system of the original games and how it tied together with your lives count was a carefully constructed system that rewarded the player for playing well by allowing them to grow a safety net, while playing poorly would punish you as incentive to get better so that you could see parts of the game you hadn't been able to reach yet. It often gets compared to the quarter eating tendencies of old arcade games, but I don't see it that way. It wasn't about artificial difficulty to rip you off of your hard earned cash, it was about introducing a relatively strict skill floor to make progress itself a reward for the players that could prove their mettle to get that far.

Spoiler: Point

I believe that if Sega were to go through with rings boosting speed without being extremely punishing, redundant, or awkward, Sonic being damaged would result in him dropping 20 rings, with the inability to pick those rings back up.

Other than that addition, I have no contrasting opinions with this section.

However, that design is clearly being phased out, and so the interwoven mechanics of the system are becoming unraveled. Rings rewarded players who could hold onto them with a 1-up every 100 rings they could hold onto without taking a hit. Even if you couldn't pull that off, holding on to just 50 was all you needed to get into a special stage, and later to transform into your super form. The only one of these that's really still around in modern games is Super Sonic, and even that doesn't feel as rewarding as it used to. This introduces a problem in my opinion; holding onto more than a single ring doesn't really hold much meaning anymore. As long as you can keep picking it up or collecting at least one more, you can't die in most circumstances, and there's borderline no reward to holding onto more of them beyond that point.

Spoiler: Point

Yeah!

I believe this solves the 1-Ring problem, a less urgent problem, but still a very big one!

See the point above, as well. I believe integrating that as well entirely fixes it. Even if it does cause a bit of outrage, I see this as a mechanic that does need to be innovated upon, and that it's worth it.

That's where my idea behind tying speed to rings comes in. The idea is to repurpose the concept of rewarding players for holding onto rings without losing them by tying how fast the "boost" can take you to your ring collection, all the way up to 100 rings in reference to collecting a 1-up.

Just going fast and reacting to incoming obstacles and hazards has some fun value but it also leaves a lot of room for improvement. In the past, the spindash has been used to interact dynamically with the environment. Going downhill increases your speed, going uphill reduces it, and flying off a ramp or jumping off a hill at the right angle could send you flying with a limited amount of control afforded to the player to steer themselves to where they want to land. I think this is important to bring back, not just in reference to the series roots but in service to the gameplay itself and achieving an enjoyable flow state. There's an intuitive simplicity to this design that easily makes sense and clicks for players without too much in the way of explanation needed, and that's indicitive of good design. The process of getting good at manipulating the physics to your advantage and using them to craft your own shortcuts to cut down on your clear times despite taking risks in doing so is something that will always be satisfying in just about any game that knows what it is doing with it, and this is the big thing that recent 3D entries have largely forgotten.

Spoiler: Point

This.

This is what I want.

If this is what your ability provides, I might not be entirely opposed to it, but I still don't think it can replace either the Spamdash or the Boost.

Y'know, it just occurred to me that if Sega were to test this in a real game, they could try tying it to Metal Sonic, or a character like that.

To get back to the matter of point number 2; I don't think that boost games or spindash games are inherently better or worse than each other. I think they both do things that the 3D games have been needing to do for a long time now, but that no 3D game has ever brought together in just the right way. Both design mentalties are two halves of a larger, greater whole that can only be brought to its full potential when pieced together. Spindash never reached its full potential in 3D. Boost design mentality was the answer they came up with, but while it addessed many of the issues they were having with spindash design it also came with eliminating some of the appeal. Instead of getting caught up in nuances that worked for specific games, I think it's important to look at all of the games that did well regardless of whether they used spindash design mentality or boost design mentality, ask what players thought did and didn't work from each of these games, and then also ask how this could be learned from to make Sonic's controls in future titles feel better and more fun to play instead of emulating the mistakes of the past.

Spoiler: Point

Yes - the best Spindash game (SA1) and the best Boost game (SonG) are about the same quality in gameplay, but differ in mechanics.

As for the matter of cosmetically emulating both boost and spindash, this is also inspired by the perspective of remembering and paying homage to the series roots. There are always going to be those who prefer a spinning animation or a running animation during gameplay and honestly I don't really see any reason why it can't be either or. Spindash is always always represented as starting from a standstill while boost is mostly used while already in motion, so it makes a lot of sense to choose which animation set to use based on that despite the move itself not functioning any differently either way.

Spoiler: Point

This is what's most iffy for me.

The way the Rush games handle the infinite boost meter has always been my favorite of their attempts so far; rewarding the player for interacting with the game mechanics while also having an element of only lasting for as long as the player can keep it up. This is more fun than simply drawing an infinity symbol and then having an invisible timer or having to be paranoid of taking hits due to not being able to collect rings. I've already explained my perspective on the issues the meter simply existing has brought to the series, and spindash design never relied on a meter anyway, but I wanted to represent that fun and addicting aspect from the Rush games in some way, so that's where the max boost concept I came up with comes from. I combined the idea with the max boost from Frontiers and the end result was for it to be a system in which you can buff the speed of your boost, but only for as long as you can keep it going. The idea is that if you play well, you are given the opportunity to take bigger risks for the chance of faster clear times that are more satisfying to pull off.

Overall, our opinions seem to be coming closer and closer.

 

[time gear]

Regarding the matter of Boost and Spindash being the same, it's important to note that when I say that I'm talking about their purpose within Sonic's toolkit. The entire debate of "Boost vs Spindash" only exists because of this basic fact of the matter; their actual purpose is the same and so they inherently clash and compete with each other when attempted to be used together separately in the same moveset. When it really boils down to it, there's nothing that one can do that's truly exclusive to it in such a way that the other could never have it. They juggle back and forth between one being better than the other, and so the way I see it it would be better for the franchise if they weren't just purposefully the same move but got truly reconciled together into something that can do what each of them does right, and ideally even more.

I particularly have a distaste for boost that can't hurt enemies as this amounts to just a sprint button which feels out of place in Sonic. I didn't like the run button in Lost World and I don't like boost in Frontiers much better. However, I have grievances with Spindash design in previous 3D games too. In particular, the lack of truly dynamic physics based interactions with the stage design. There's a few fangames here and there that do this somewhat decently but as far as the official games are concerned the best we ever got was SA1 which although fun was kind of a janky mess that felt like a far cry from the classic 2D counterpart. The spindash only continued to get shafted and more janky from here until it was finally replaced with the boost, which fixed a lot of the jank and somewhat innovated on the concept but also missed the point of what was fun about spinning in the original trilogy. Boost design and Spindash design have been desperately needing to come together, and it keeps not quite happening.

Regarding the idea of boost being relegated to mach speed sections, that's a hard no from me. I don't really like the idea of Sonic having moveset options in his toolkit that are exclusive to mach speed sections or anything similar, especially something that has become an iconic franchise staple. It's kinda like... Imagine they brought back the SA1 spindash, toned it down to remove the spamdash, and then had proper physics based stage interactions instead. Now imagine you can only use it in special sections for a minute or so right at the end of a stage, and even then these sections only show up a few times through the course of the game. Does that convey what I mean? It would be very jarring for something as iconic as boost to be relegated only to brief mach speed sections.

I also don't like the idea of boost being forced on as a constant during these sections. In fact, I don't like the idea of being forced to run during these sections at all short of when there's something Sonic is actually actively running from. The way I see it, the difference between a mach speed section and a normal level segment should be the stage design, not Sonic's actual controls and/or moveset. Mach Speed sections would be designed from a layout perspective very similarly to how they were in 06 with them being largely linear but in a way that feels very big and open. I'd try to avoid quickstep being prominent in these sections as well and focus more on manual steering to avoid incoming hazards. If quickstep was to get used, it would only be for particular portions such as Sonic just running straight forward on a bridge. Given my philosophy on what the main stage layout design should be, the big contrast between the two would be that main stage portions would have a lot more physics based opportunities to create your own shortcuts and progress at your own pace whether that be slow and exploratory or breakneck speeds. Mach Speed on the other hand wouldn't have much in the way of exploration aside from the occasional split path and would function more as a linear action segment with fewer physics based opportunities that's a lot more straightforward point A to point B. Kinda like traditional boost stages, but generally wider.

On that note, I'd like to see drift brought more to its potential as well. It kinda feels like they've never really quite known what to do with drift, which is a shame as I'd love to see it become more viable in general rather than getting phased out. Pulling off a drift just right has always been immensely satisfying, and yet it's slowly disappearing from Sonic's toolkit rather than getting better over time.

 

[Metool_Man]

Regarding the idea of boost being relegated to mach speed sections, that's a hard no from me. I don't really like the idea of Sonic having moveset options in his toolkit that are exclusive to mach speed sections or anything similar, especially something that has become an iconic franchise staple. It's kinda like... Imagine they brought back the SA1 spindash, toned it down to remove the spamdash, and then had proper physics based stage interactions instead. Now imagine you can only use it in special sections for a minute or so right at the end of a stage, and even then these sections only show up a few times through the course of the game. Does that convey what I mean? It would be very jarring for something as iconic as boost to be relegated only to brief mach speed sections.

I also don't like the idea of boost being forced on as a constant during these sections. In fact, I don't like the idea of being forced to run during these sections at all short of when there's something Sonic is actually actively running from. The way I see it, the difference between a mach speed section and a normal level segment should be the stage design, not Sonic's actual controls and/or moveset. Mach Speed sections would be designed from a layout perspective very similarly to how they were in 06 with them being largely linear but in a way that feels very big and open. I'd try to avoid quickstep being prominent in these sections as well and focus more on manual steering to avoid incoming hazards. If quickstep was to get used, it would only be for particular portions such as Sonic just running straight forward on a bridge. Given my philosophy on what the main stage layout design should be, the big contrast between the two would be that main stage portions would have a lot more physics based opportunities to create your own shortcuts and progress at your own pace whether that be slow and exploratory or breakneck speeds. Mach Speed on the other hand wouldn't have much in the way of exploration aside from the occasional split path and would function more as a linear action segment with fewer physics based opportunities that's a lot more straightforward point A to point B. Kinda like traditional boost stages, but generally wider.

I used to think

Spoiler: this

I don't really like the idea of Sonic having moveset options in his toolkit that are exclusive to mach speed sections or anything similar

too, but I think the Boost fits incredibly well into a Mach-Speed like situation.

It'd be much more jarring the other way around, having Sonic Boost in normal stages and having special parts where Sonic Spamdashes instead.

Also, the Boost may be iconic - but is it creative? It's such a basic concept, that it can be smoothly relegated to these sections. Also, who said the sections had to be short? Or few and far between? If Sega wanted to, every stage could have a Mach Speed section, or in this concept, a Boost section.

I freakin' love the Boost as its own concept, dashing through things incredibly fast, dodging obstacles, it's great! And I don't think I conveyed that I do think the Boost is really fun - and I think this is a great way to keep the Boost as-is for the people who love it as such and reintroduce the Spamdash back into the Sonic games.

I don't reeeeally see how this is jarring - it's really a fancied up Mach Speed section. Sonic just has an aura around him, is going significantly faster, and damages enemies.

Plus, you'd be able to use that Spinboost to drift, like I proposed? Remember? I thought it was a pretty cool little idea - hold B to Spinboost, and you can use that to drift, and maybe even do something else? Other than that, Sonic can still slide by pressing X like in normal gameplay, and press X in the air to get a dive kick - functionally a stomp but it keeps up the pace.

It's really not all too different to your proposition - it also lacks a meter; Sonic just dashes forwards automatically - like the Mach Speed sections.

Sonic's moveset isn't really different either - B is still Spindashing, albeit in a different way due to the speed, and X is still sliding and stomping - practically identical to his base moveset.

 

[time gear]

I used to think this too, but I think the Boost fits incredibly well into a Mach-Speed like situation.

It does, but it shouldn't be exclusive to such stages/sections.

It'd be much more jarring the other way around, having Sonic Boost in normal stages and having special parts where Sonic Spamdashes instead.

It'd be jarring regardless of how you flip this. The thing that makes it jarring is suddenly changing up Sonic's moveset for a special stage/section instead of maintaining a sense of consistency. At most I could accept quick step being exclusive to portions of mach speed, but even then only if it doesn't fit into the normal stages very well.

Also, the Boost may be iconic - but is it creative?

Spindash isn't inherently any more creative. The creativity comes from implementation, not from the base concept. Both moves amount to "go fast" and "attack" buttons. The creativity comes from what you do with that. Boost was an incredibly creative and novel concept back when it was introduced in the Rush games and Unleashed, and while you could argue that's largely worn off from repeated use, the same thing is doublefold so for Spindash given how much older it is and how many more games feature it. Whatever creativity could have been attributed to the spindash back in 1992 has long since worn off along with the novelty.

Also, who said the sections had to be short? Or few and far between? If Sega wanted to, every stage could have a Mach Speed section, or in this concept, a Boost section.

Mach speed sections work best when they're short. They're very linear sections that are designed to be challenging in short bursts without overstaying their welcome. A sort of finale to end off the stage rather than a whole stage in and of themselves. They're not at all the main focus; they're bonus sections. Restricting boost to this just wouldn't be fair to the boost, and it especially wouldn't be fair to the players. Players who like the boost are getting shafted because the thing they like is barely getting any real use, and players who don't like the boost are getting shafted because now they're suddenly having to use it when up until now it wasn't even available.

This is why consistency is important. If the boost is a consistent part of Sonic's moveset, players who don't like the boost just won't buy the game and players who do like the boost will feel satisfied from its presence, especially if it's handled well. Much like the separation between Open Zones and Cyberspace in Frontiers; if you could only boost in Cyberspace and only had SA1 Spindash in Open Zones, players would feel the jarring inconsistency.

I freakin' love the Boost as its own concept, dashing through things incredibly fast, dodging obstacles, it's great! And I don't think I conveyed that I do think the Boost is really fun - and I think this is a great way to keep the Boost as-is for the people who love it as such and reintroduce the Spamdash back into the Sonic games.

I'd rather the boost not get left as-is. It's lived up to its potential in its current form, more of the same is only going to feel old and tired. It needs to innovate, provide an experience that feels familiar enough that players can adapt quickly through the sense of familiarity but also do new things so that players don't feel like it's just the same old thing again. Particularly as mentioned repeatedly up until now, there's a need for it to interact with the physics and stage design more dynamically akin to the spindash from the original games.

I should also be a bit more clear on this matter, I do not want to ever see the spamdash return even given its popularity. I don't want to mash a button to go fast, I'd rather just hold a button down. This is something that boost gets very right. I can acknowledge the fact that a lot of people like the spamdash and have ported it into newer games, but frankly I just do not understand the appeal of giving yourself carpal tunnel syndrome instead of the much easier on your hands boost method of going fast. Boost achieves the same thing, but better.

Plus, you'd be able to use that Spinboost to drift, like I proposed? Remember? I thought it was a pretty cool little idea - hold B to Spinboost, and you can use that to drift, and maybe even do something else? Other than that, Sonic can still slide by pressing X like in normal gameplay, and press X in the air to get a dive kick - functionally a stomp but it keeps up the pace.

I've avoided getting into the matter of hypothetical control bindings up until this point, and I'm going to continue to do so. Aside from the fact that there's no less than three major brand controllers out there on the market plus kb+m, there's also the distinction between legacy modern controls and well, lets just call it Frontiers modern controls which also returned as an option in Shadow Generations. I'm just not about to get into that complicated clusterpluck.

Sonic's moveset isn't really different either - B is still Spindashing, albeit in a different way due to the speed, and X is still sliding and stomping - practically identical to his base moveset.

Your proposition isn't only cosmetically different though, you are proposing consequential differences in what the "go fast" button does based on whether you are in a mach speed section or not, which at the very least is going to create a muscle memory headache if not have far worse implications for the gameplay. This is another reason why consistency is so important. You want the player's experiences controling Sonic from one moment to the next to be as fluid and intuitive as possible, and not do anything that's going to cause the player to feel like their experiences up to the present moment taught them bad lessons and developed bad habits regarding their control the character.

 

[Metool_Man]

It does, but it shouldn't be exclusive to such stages/sections.

Not sure why - again, it's basically a Mach Speed section, but Sonic has a fancy glow aura, and he damages enemies.

It'd be jarring regardless of how you flip this. The thing that makes it jarring is suddenly changing up Sonic's moveset for a special stage/section instead of maintaining a sense of consistency. At most I could accept quick step being exclusive to portions of mach speed, but even then only if it doesn't fit into the normal stages very well.

Eh - not really. The Boost sections would just feature Sonic going much faster than in normal gameplay, in a way that just so happens to be almost identical to the Boost. Sonic is just going really fast automatically during this part, providing the game with a thrilling high-speed set piece.

I also really, and I mean REALLY value consistency within my games, and I see zero problems with this.

Spindash isn't inherently any more creative. The creativity comes from implementation, not from the base concept. Both moves amount to "go fast" and "attack" buttons. The creativity comes from what you do with that. Boost was an incredibly creative and novel concept back when it was introduced in the Rush games and Unleashed, and while you could argue that's largely worn off from repeated use, the same thing is doublefold so for Spindash given how much older it is and how many more games feature it. Whatever creativity could have been attributed to the spindash back in 1992 has long since worn off along with the novelty.

Wdym the Spindash isn't more creative? The Boost is just a run button with a hitbox, while the Spindash features the ability to charge it, and increased gravitational effect on slopes, plus, the character is freakin' spinning. Not once have I seen anything like the Spindash EXCEPT MAYBE the roll in Super Mario Odyssey, which completely lacks the charging aspect. Of course, you can also look to Sonic clones, but those directly ripped from Sonic, and those are very clearly just different iterations of Sonic's own Spindash.

The Spindash is something so iconic and exclusive to Sonic, that a lot of other people point out a character even TRYING to spin as a "Spindash." I've seen it happen! Some dude rolled along the ground? HE SPINDASHED!

...sorry that came out so aggressively.

The point is that there's no way that the Spindash isn't a more creative and unique concept than the Boost. You can SUMMARIZE the moves to make them similar, but I still don't see why they're the SAME.

...are we just back at the "Boost and Spindash are the same" argument? Oh boy...

Mach speed sections work best when they're short. They're very linear sections that are designed to be challenging in short bursts without overstaying their welcome. A sort of finale to end off the stage rather than a whole stage in and of themselves. They're not at all the main focus; they're bonus sections. Restricting boost to this just wouldn't be fair to the boost, and it especially wouldn't be fair to the players. Players who like the boost are getting shafted because the thing they like is barely getting any real use, and players who don't like the boost are getting shafted because now they're suddenly having to use it when up until now it wasn't even available.

This is why consistency is important. If the boost is a consistent part of Sonic's moveset, players who don't like the boost just won't buy the game and players who do like the boost will feel satisfied from its presence, especially if it's handled well. Much like the separation between Open Zones and Cyberspace in Frontiers; if you could only boost in Cyberspace and only had SA1 Spindash in Open Zones, players would feel the jarring inconsistency.

So, do you want long Mach Speed sections or not? I'm getting mixed signals here.

Theres no reason entire stages can't be dedicated to this style. Picture SA2 in this style. Imagine the entirety of Green Forest as a Mach Speed stage. Pretty cool! I'm just not seeing the downsides, other than 2 gameplay styles being somewhat awkwardly meshed into one character, which is why I made Sonic Boost forward automatically - to sorta circumvent the similarities making switching between them LESS jarring, which may sound counterintuitive on surface level, but making them more starkly different contrasts them, and allows you to learn how they work separately, ultimately making things MORE consistent. I may or may not have worded that poorly, but that's how I see it.

There was one Dreams game (the PlayStation scratch, basically) and there was one Sonic fangame that had Boost and Spindash sections. It seemed awkward to switch between them. The thing is, it probably would've felt fine if the Boost parts just had Sonic Boost forwards automatically, sorta like a Mach Speed section. Honestly, this concept '06 came up with is pretty darn good.

I'd rather the boost not get left as-is. It's lived up to its potential in its current form, more of the same is only going to feel old and tired. It needs to innovate, provide an experience that feels familiar enough that players can adapt quickly through the sense of familiarity but also do new things so that players don't feel like it's just the same old thing again. Particularly as mentioned repeatedly up until now, there's a need for it to interact with the physics and stage design more dynamically akin to the spindash from the original games.

I should also be a bit more clear on this matter, I do not want to ever see the spamdash return even given its popularity. I don't want to mash a button to go fast, I'd rather just hold a button down. This is something that boost gets very right. I can acknowledge the fact that a lot of people like the spamdash and have ported it into newer games, but frankly I just do not understand the appeal of giving yourself carpal tunnel syndrome instead of the much easier on your hands boost method of going fast. Boost achieves the same thing, but better.

This was kinda implied at the way I described the proposition's Mach Speed sections, but it's totally easy to miss, so I'll make it clear - Sonic would totally still have his physics intact. He'd be able to launch himself off of objects in these sections! You could still do the things you're requesting.

Also, I think your take on the Spamdash is a little misinformed. See - the Spamdash's ability to be - well - spammed wasn't in mind when creating the stages, while the Boost stages was built around the Boost (obviously). The appeal of the Spamdash is bending the game to your will and taking advantage of its mechanics to go faster and cut down on time. It's an exploit that requires skill and control to maintain, and that's why it's so fun to use.

Honestly, if the Spamdash were to return, the spamming aspect would probably be nerfed, by, as I mentioned before, adding a delay to when the Spamdash will actually start charging speed, resulting in quickly tapping the button netting Sonic no speed, practically being a curl-in. Though there are arguments for keeping it.

I've avoided getting into the matter of hypothetical control bindings up until this point, and I'm going to continue to do so. Aside from the fact that there's no less than three major brand controllers out there on the market plus kb+m, there's also the distinction between legacy modern controls and well, lets just call it Frontiers modern controls which also returned as an option in Shadow Generations. I'm just not about to get into that complicated clusterpluck.

It's kinda hard to avoid key binds when concepting a new game. You need to be clear on how it controls, after all. It's fine if you continue to avoid it, but laying out some controls might help. Here, I'll even lay out mine...

Spoiler: Controls

Normal Gameplay:

A: Jump, Airdash, Homing Attack
-All self-explanatory

B: Spindash, Dropdash
-The Spindash functions as it does in SA1, with the added spamming nerf. The Dropdash would be activated by holding B and would instantly release upon touching the ground, practically identical to Sonic Mania.

X: Slide, Stomp
-I'm not super sure about these 2, but it's kinda what Sonic '06 did, so oh well. They function pretty much as they do now. Slide under gaps and Stomp to reach the ground quickly.

Y: Light Speed Dash, Trick
-The Light Speed Dash is normal. As for Tricking, I've got an idea, as stated before, but still not quite sure it fits into this concept, so I'll put it on hold.


Mach Speed Sections:

A: Jump, Airdash, Homing Attack
-Same stuff. Homing Attack continues your speed forwards, sorta like those Additive Homing mods for some Sonic games, to keep up the pace.

B: Spinboost
-Sonic would enter a Spinboost-like animation, that doesn't do much except let Sonic enter a drifting state by turning. Perhaps he could also use it to gain a little more speed downhill, but I don't think that's necessary, nor does it fit into Mach Speed.

X: Slide, Divekick
-The Slide is still the Slide, and the Divekick is literally just the Stomp, but Sonic maintains speed during the fall and during the landing, basically a "get to the ground" button, kinda similar to Unleashed's Stomp.

Y: Light Speed Dash
-Literally no note.

The controls in concept are identical but adapt a little based on the gameplay style. Now, in cases where it's done wrong, this triggers OCD and pisses me off, but I honest-to-God think this is an example of it being done right. Perhaps the Divekick could forego its new label and simply be the Stomp, but it functions a little differently.

Anyways, for the controller in mind, it's the Nintendo Switch Pro Controller. If you're an Xbox or PlayStation guy, you can look up and compare the controllers. For Xbox, literally just swap A with B and X with Y and you're pretty much set. For PlayStation, I got no freakin' clue what crack they're smoking over there.

Your proposition isn't only cosmetically different though, you are proposing consequential differences in what the "go fast" button does based on whether you are in a mach speed section or not, which at the very least is going to create a muscle memory headache if not have far worse implications for the gameplay. This is another reason why consistency is so important. You want the player's experiences controling Sonic from one moment to the next to be as fluid and intuitive as possible, and not do anything that's going to cause the player to feel like their experiences up to the present moment taught them bad lessons and developed bad habits regarding their control the character.

Oh, come on, it's not that hard. Having the same button do a slightly different thing based on if they're in an entirely different gameplay style isn't going to screw with any muscle memory. It's not like Sonic will abruptly switch from Normal to Mach Speed anyways, there would be a transition of some kind to make it clear. Plus, Sonic will have a bright blue aura constantly surrounding him during these segments, so again, how is this gonna mess with muscle memory? The muscle memory will know when the button will do a different thing.

Again, I love me my consistency, and I'm seeing no problems with this.

Plus, the Spinboost in the Mach Speed would make itself clearly different from the normal Spindash that Sonic uses in normal gameplay by using that leaned-oval shape constantly (like Frontiers) instead of just the charging part, making it clear that Sonic is using the same technique in a different way. Heck, even make it play that skidding sound all the time from Generations (albeit turned down a bit, it gets annoying) to make it even clearer this is the Spinboost he is using and not the Spindash. He's putting his all into going fast.

I do feel it fluidly transitions - Sonic's abilities are ramped up so he can get the heck out of there as fast as he can. He's really putting his back into it.

 

[time gear]

So it definitely seems as though either you aren't very receptive to the "addressing direct quotes" method or you skim read when I do that or something along those lines. I'll explain things out and you still don't get it and ask me questions I already answered in the very thing you are responding to, so I'm going back to the more broad method of replying. It seems to be working a lot better. I'll only address direct quotes when absolutely necessary to make my point, which I will do at the end.

Spoiler: Big post again

Instead of going over the entire list of reasons I already gave for why relegating boost to only mach speed sections isn't such a great idea, I'll just point out that it seems to me as though your desire to go in that direction is brought about by your heavy bias in favor of the Adventure design mentality. It's not the first time you've suggested sidelining boost in favor of spindash, and at this point I'm starting to think that you're more interested in getting Sonic Adventure 3 than you are in allowing the series to innovate. Perhaps this is your way of trying to compromise by having boost still show up in some form?

But here's the thing. Great games aren't built on these types of compromises. Innovation isn't about spreading out breadcrumbs for people who like certain things while molding the rest of the experience after something you liked in the past. It is about improving over what came before, not trying to replicate it. The point I've been trying to make this whole time is that boost and spindash alike both have their own flaws, and innovation requires inspecting what they each got right and what they each got wrong and using that information to make something better.

The next big mainline game isn't going to be Sonic Adventure 3. It just isn't. Instead of being stuck in this idea of doing whatever it takes to replicate the Adventure days, you're better off accepting that aside from maybe a smaller side project the adventure formula is a thing of the past, and that's okay. Sonic can be better than that. Sonic can be better than Unleashed. Sonic can be better than Frontiers. But to innovate Sonic up to that potential, the series is going to need to shed off the things that didn't work from each of these games, bring together things that did in a way that's harmonious from a design perspective, and even do completely new things. That means that aside from a smaller budget nostalgia title akin to Mania, the Adventure formula needs to stay in the past. This could still end up being a good game, but it's a different concept entirely from innovating the big mainline titles moving forward.

Control consistency requires keeping Sonic's core toolkit pretty much the same throughout the entire experience. That means that if you're giving him some form of boost, it's going to be a part of his toolkit through the entire game, not just special mach speed sections. It's just like how in Frontiers you always have the boost regardless of if you are in the open zones or cyberspace, and the same is true for spindash when you unlock it. Not having boost be available in the open zones and just relegating it to the cyberspace stages would have been bad design, and the same is true here.

Wdym the Spindash isn't more creative?

Exactly what I explained. Creativity isn't something permanently inherent to a concept. When the concept loses its novelty, reusing it again in the future just isn't creative anymore. Spindash predates boost by well over a decade, and appeared in at least four 3D titles before Unleashed. Spindash can be fun, and it's certainly iconic, and it can be incorporated into good design, but it's not creative anymore. That ship sailed a long time ago.

Think about it like this: When Pokemon Red and Green first came out, that sort of team building creature collection turn based RPG was a really creative and novel concept. We're 9 generations in now and there's over 1000 Pokemon in total. These games have been coming out for decades. There's nothing creative about the core concept anymore. It's been done again and again and there's even whole other series coming out doing the same thing such as Coromon, Nexomon, Monster Crown, Temtem, Cassette Beasts, Palworld, there's even a Final Fantasy game that got in on the concept. The same old thing again isn't creative. Spindash hasn't been creative in a long time.

You can SUMMARIZE the moves to make them similar, but I still don't see why they're the SAME.

...are we just back at the "Boost and Spindash are the same" argument? Oh boy...

That has nothing to do with the point I was making here so frankly I'm very confused, but don't you worry. We'll get to that next.

Also, I think your take on the Spamdash is a little misinformed. See - the Spamdash's ability to be - well - spammed wasn't in mind when creating the stages, while the Boost stages was built around the Boost (obviously). The appeal of the Spamdash is bending the game to your will and taking advantage of its mechanics to go faster and cut down on time. It's an exploit that requires skill and control to maintain, and that's why it's so fun to use.

You're somehow missing what my gripe with the spamdash is. The spamming. Button mashing to go fast just isn't a good mechanic. Holding a button to go fast is. There's nothing the spamdash can do within good game design that a well crafted physics based boost couldn't do better. Not only could you do the exact same thing of carving your own way forward, but you'd be able to spare your hands in the process, and maybe even make use of airboost to get some extra distance. There's nothing about the way the boost works that would stop it from being able to be used to take skill based shortcuts, and I'd rather they innovate the boost to be used like that rather than bringing back the spamdash.

I also don't really get your obsession with charging up the boost in speed, especially since it wastes time in a game all about going fast and netting yourself lower and lower clear times on successive playthroughs of a level. Sitting still for a few seconds doesn't serve a gameplay function, the appeal is entirely thematic and aesthetic which shouldn't take priority over practicality. The instantaneous nature of the boost isn't overpowered, it won't save you from boosting off a cliff or into spikes or in the wrong direction, all things that can still happen when you charge a spindash. The only difference is that boost gets going immediately and spindash... Well, doesn't.

You act adverse to boiling down boost and spindash to the core concepts, but the core concepts is all either one has ever been from one game to the next. There's been attempts at innovation in almost every single sequel, some more successful than others. Colors changed how the boost refills its meter, Generations made the drift + boost combination more viable, Forces wasted everyone's time by simply existing (and de-innovated back to the capsules), and Frontiers took away the ability to damage enemies and made the meter refill automatically when not in use. Spindash in 3D is an even more depressing story of getting watered down over time, at least until Lost World and Frontiers not only made it viable but made it better than boost by adding what boost does better than it straight onto it.

When it really comes down to it, boost and spindash really are the same thing and always have been. All boost ever was to begin with was a modified spindash with a cosmetic change and a new name. It's the spindash 2.0, using the fact that it's totally definitely a completely different ability because look see the name is different and it has a different animation as an excuse to finally take away the pointless charge up time and add in the trait of being able to keep up speed as long as you hold the button, a concept that has been demonstrated to actually be really good in both linear action stages and more open world type environments across multiple titles and even has started getting applied to the spindash itself now that people have gotten used to it being a thing Sonic can do. In an alternate timeline in which they never conceptualized the boost, Rush and Unleashed would have had the "spinboost" instead, as would every 3D game since. It would function exactly the same way as the boost in those games, but the animation would be different and they'd still be calling it the spindash instead of boost. We just happen to live in a version of events in which they decided for marketing reasons to treat boost as something new, and it worked, and because of that we now have two slightly different versions of the same thing in Frontiers mapped to separate buttons.

It's kinda hard to avoid key binds when concepting a new game. You need to be clear on how it controls, after all. It's fine if you continue to avoid it, but laying out some controls might help.

Anyways, for the controller in mind, it's the Nintendo Switch Pro Controller. If you're an Xbox or PlayStation guy, you can look up and compare the controllers. For Xbox, literally just swap A with B and X with Y and you're pretty much set. For PlayStation, I got no freakin' clue what crack they're smoking over there.

The whole problem with listing out hypothetical keybinds is to anyone who doesn't know anything about the controller I'm describing it just looks like I'm speaking in ancient hyroglyphics. The only way I could avoid this is to list out all the potential different buttons I could be referring to across all the different controllers and playstyles. Otherwise, people will need to go look up what's effectively a map to understand what I'm talking about, and by then I've already lost 90% of them. Even if I do list out all the different possibilities there's also things that are confusing such as the difference between Xbox and Nintendo face buttons and the ability to rebind controls in a menu on PC to whatever you want anyway.

It's much more efficient to just say "boost button" or "go fast button" rather than putting myself and any potential readers through the whole headache if they don't happen to share my controller preference and don't have all the major controllers and default control configurations memorized.

 

[Metool_Man]

First and foremost, I'm intending to wrap this up soon. I don't wanna drag it too long.

Instead of going over the entire list of reasons I already gave for why relegating boost to only mach speed sections isn't such a great idea, I'll just point out that it seems to me as though your desire to go in that direction is brought about by your heavy bias in favor of the Adventure design mentality. It's not the first time you've suggested sidelining boost in favor of spindash, and at this point I'm starting to think that you're more interested in getting Sonic Adventure 3 than you are in allowing the series to innovate. Perhaps this is your way of trying to compromise by having boost still show up in some form?

But here's the thing. Great games aren't built on these types of compromises. Innovation isn't about spreading out breadcrumbs for people who like certain things while molding the rest of the experience after something you liked in the past. It is about improving over what came before, not trying to replicate it. The point I've been trying to make this whole time is that boost and spindash alike both have their own flaws, and innovation requires inspecting what they each got right and what they each got wrong and using that information to make something better.

The next big mainline game isn't going to be Sonic Adventure 3. It just isn't. Instead of being stuck in this idea of doing whatever it takes to replicate the Adventure days, you're better off accepting that aside from maybe a smaller side project the adventure formula is a thing of the past, and that's okay. Sonic can be better than that. Sonic can be better than Unleashed. Sonic can be better than Frontiers. But to innovate Sonic up to that potential, the series is going to need to shed off the things that didn't work from each of these games, bring together things that did in a way that's harmonious from a design perspective, and even do completely new things. That means that aside from a smaller budget nostalgia title akin to Mania, the Adventure formula needs to stay in the past. This could still end up being a good game, but it's a different concept entirely from innovating the big mainline titles moving forward.

Control consistency requires keeping Sonic's core toolkit pretty much the same throughout the entire experience. That means that if you're giving him some form of boost, it's going to be a part of his toolkit through the entire game, not just special mach speed sections. It's just like how in Frontiers you always have the boost regardless of if you are in the open zones or cyberspace, and the same is true for spindash when you unlock it. Not having boost be available in the open zones and just relegating it to the cyberspace stages would have been bad design, and the same is true here.

Dang, I've really been trying to avoid bias.

I don't necessarily want Adventure 3, nor really a return to the Adventure formula to the extent I may be suggesting, I want the Spindash that I know and love back in action. Kinda the whole point of why I came here to share my first proposition, later scraping it for the one I favor now.

As crazy as it sounds, due to the things I've been proposing, I didn't grow up with the 2 Adventure games. I came back and played them much later, and I love them, and think they contain the highest highs in the franchise, while admittedly having some pretty low lows sometimes. I think that Spindash they have there is fun, versatile, iconic, and doesn't need innovation, besides maybe a few tweaks to how it works. If what I'm saying sounds contrasting to what I've said before, I've been surfing the net on more opinions and mine might have shifted as well. Not sure if this is the case, but I wanna handle this with caution.

I don't mean this as a leverage in any way, but I want to point out that Takashi Lizuka has talked about the desire to create Sonic Adventure 3, though is unsure if such a thing will ever happen. There are no plans, but he expresses desire to create it. Just to let you know - the Adventure formula isn't out of the picture because it hasn't been used in a long time. Classic Sonic was dead for a while there, and after building up from Generations, now we've gotten another fully original game.

As another alternative, I'd like for Sonic Team to start releasing Spin-Offs in the Adventure style every so often. I'd really love that, and many others would probably really love that too. This would leave the mainline games free to continue to experiment, which is a further compromise between me views and your views - the "smaller side project" proposition. Just that, would make me happy.

Also, the Adventure style didn't ever not work - it was abandoned due to the failure of Sonic 2006. I'm 100% confident if that game got some more time in the oven and was instead one of the best Sonic games ever, Sonic '07, we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now.

Again, the Boost wouldn't really be "available" in the Mach Speed sections within my proposition in the traditional sense of a button input working here but not in normal gameplay, it'd be that when Sonic reached fast enough speeds in those sections, in which he also automatically accelerated, he'd break the sound barrier, resulting in a blue aura around him and the ability to damage enemies. Technically, it's actually always there, but you'll never reach those speeds (unless in scripted segments) in the base stages.

Exactly what I explained. Creativity isn't something permanently inherent to a concept. When the concept loses its novelty, reusing it again in the future just isn't creative anymore. Spindash predates boost by well over a decade, and appeared in at least four 3D titles before Unleashed. Spindash can be fun, and it's certainly iconic, and it can be incorporated into good design, but it's not creative anymore. That ship sailed a long time ago.

Think about it like this: When Pokemon Red and Green first came out, that sort of team building creature collection turn based RPG was a really creative and novel concept. We're 9 generations in now and there's over 1000 Pokemon in total. These games have been coming out for decades. There's nothing creative about the core concept anymore. It's been done again and again and there's even whole other series coming out doing the same thing such as Coromon, Nexomon, Monster Crown, Temtem, Cassette Beasts, Palworld, there's even a Final Fantasy game that got in on the concept. The same old thing again isn't creative. Spindash hasn't been creative in a long time.

Disproving point. No argument

You're somehow missing what my gripe with the spamdash is. The spamming. Button mashing to go fast just isn't a good mechanic. Holding a button to go fast is. There's nothing the spamdash can do within good game design that a well crafted physics based boost couldn't do better. Not only could you do the exact same thing of carving your own way forward, but you'd be able to spare your hands in the process, and maybe even make use of airboost to get some extra distance. There's nothing about the way the boost works that would stop it from being able to be used to take skill based shortcuts, and I'd rather they innovate the boost to be used like that rather than bringing back the spamdash.

I also don't really get your obsession with charging up the boost in speed, especially since it wastes time in a game all about going fast and netting yourself lower and lower clear times on successive playthroughs of a level. Sitting still for a few seconds doesn't serve a gameplay function, the appeal is entirely thematic and aesthetic which shouldn't take priority over practicality. The instantaneous nature of the boost isn't overpowered, it won't save you from boosting off a cliff or into spikes or in the wrong direction, all things that can still happen when you charge a spindash. The only difference is that boost gets going immediately and spindash... Well, doesn't.

You act adverse to boiling down boost and spindash to the core concepts, but the core concepts is all either one has ever been from one game to the next. There's been attempts at innovation in almost every single sequel, some more successful than others. Colors changed how the boost refills its meter, Generations made the drift + boost combination more viable, Forces wasted everyone's time by simply existing (and de-innovated back to the capsules), and Frontiers took away the ability to damage enemies and made the meter refill automatically when not in use. Spindash in 3D is an even more depressing story of getting watered down over time, at least until Lost World and Frontiers not only made it viable but made it better than boost by adding what boost does better than it straight onto it.

When it really comes down to it, boost and spindash really are the same thing and always have been. All boost ever was to begin with was a modified spindash with a cosmetic change and a new name. It's the spindash 2.0, using the fact that it's totally definitely a completely different ability because look see the name is different and it has a different animation as an excuse to finally take away the pointless charge up time and add in the trait of being able to keep up speed as long as you hold the button, a concept that has been demonstrated to actually be really good in both linear action stages and more open world type environments across multiple titles and even has started getting applied to the spindash itself now that people have gotten used to it being a thing Sonic can do. In an alternate timeline in which they never conceptualized the boost, Rush and Unleashed would have had the "spinboost" instead, as would every 3D game since. It would function exactly the same way as the boost in those games, but the animation would be different and they'd still be calling it the spindash instead of boost. We just happen to live in a version of events in which they decided for marketing reasons to treat boost as something new, and it worked, and because of that we now have two slightly different versions of the same thing in Frontiers mapped to separate buttons.

Quick correction - not a mechanic - an exploit. An unintended way to use the Spindash. That's why the Spamdash never returned, it was found and "remedied", although the way they did so in SA2 made the Spindash just unfun to use, the delay on being able to start spinning as a whole made it a slog to use.

Next paragraph - are you accusing me of describing the Boost to be faster than it actually is? Usually, it's much faster than the Spindash (Unleashed - Forces). In Sonic Frontiers it was a run button, but in Shadow Gens, that's hard to say. It might just be around the same speed - but I assume the Boost you prefer is the Unleashed - Generations one, as many do, and that's a mistake on my part. If you mean to discuss the Shadow Generations Boost, which does make sense based on your point of innovation, I apologize. My points still stand, I believe, but to a less extreme... extreme? Idk.

3rd-4th paragraph - Originally, I had another dozen things to say on this, but I'm stopping here, as the matter of the Spindash and the Boost being the same is opinionated in a way that I don't think continuing to discuss will get us anywhere new. I don't believe that the Spindash and the Boost are the same, even though they have the same underlying goal, to get Sonic to move forward. I have my reasons which I have highlighted in posts before.

All I really want from Sega is for them to give my Sonic Adventure Spindash to play with again. I sorta envisioned a "perfect world" while I was at it.

To me, Sonic is at home with his Spindash - but I realize that's not how he is now, and he probably won't be either ever or in a long time. The testing they're doing on re-introducing the Spindash is great, but it's not quite what I want, but maybe I'm a minority. A lot of people love it. I'm more of a purist when it comes to this move. But hey, there aren't a whole lot of people out there arguing to combine the move quite in the way you suggested, so we both might be a bit of a minority when it comes to this argument.

 

[time gear]

Just to let you know - the Adventure formula isn't out of the picture because it hasn't been used in a long time.

That means that aside from a smaller budget nostalgia title akin to Mania, the Adventure formula needs to stay in the past. This could still end up being a good game, but it's a different concept entirely from innovating the big mainline titles moving forward.

I wasn't saying it will never happen, I was saying that the big mainline games aren't going to be using that formula. If it does happen, it's going to be a smaller side game.

Also, the Adventure style didn't ever not work

It does have its failings actually. It's fairly weak in regards to intentionally placed alternate paths, and while that could have been remedied through smarter level design what would have been a lot harder to fix is the pacing. The Adventure playstyle doesn't really allow for maintaining speed like classic and boost games do, you are relegated to your base running speed and occasionally spindashing for a brief burst of speed to take a small shortcut or attack an enemy. It gets half of the classic formula right, which is being able to slow down and explore just a smidge for hidden goodies, but the other half which is being able to keep going fast is very limited to them placing a huge downhill section or downwards pointing rail. They have to give it to you as a handout, and as soon as the stage levels out all that downhill speed vanishes into thin air unless you are on a rail, which doesn't give you any real control to direct that speed aside from jumping off which will quickly kill it.

are you accusing me of describing the Boost to be faster than it actually is?

No? When I say "Your obsession with charging up the boost in speed", I'm talking about this. Quite literally, releasing a spindash boosts your speed up from nothing to a lot, but you have to stop and charge it up. You've repeatedly talked about how you want this, and my point is that there's practical reasons why they've removed it. I'd recommend reading through what I said again with that idea in mind.

I assume the Boost you prefer is the Unleashed - Generations one, as many do

No. The boost works fine enough for what those games were going for, but those games already exist and are in the past, and don't contain the design that I want to see in the future. My favorite boost so far is the Frontiers Spindash because of the way you can interact with the physics and level design. I don't think even this is perfect, but it's the best so far and I want them to innovate the ability in that direction. Shadow Gens is a step forward and a step backwards. It's a step forwards in that they made the boost able to hurt enemies again and there's no brief pause in movement when doing so, but it's a step backwards in that they went back to it only really having linear use with not much in the way of physics interactions.

I don't really mind Shadow Generations regressing a bit though because it's meant to be a companion game to Sonic Generations and is very specifically going out of its way to recreate the same appeal that game had. It is (much like SA3 would be) a smaller side game.

 

[Metool_Man]

I wasn't saying it will never happen, I was saying that the big mainline games aren't going to be using that formula. If it does happen, it's going to be a smaller side game.

Cool, that's what I'd like.

It does have its failings actually. It's fairly weak in regards to intentionally placed alternate paths, and while that could have been remedied through smarter level design what would have been a lot harder to fix is the pacing. The Adventure playstyle doesn't really allow for maintaining speed like classic and boost games do, you are relegated to your base running speed and occasionally spindashing for a brief burst of speed to take a small shortcut or attack an enemy. It gets half of the classic formula right, which is being able to slow down and explore just a smidge for hidden goodies, but the other half which is being able to keep going fast is very limited to them placing a huge downhill section or downwards pointing rail. They have to give it to you as a handout, and as soon as the stage levels out all that downhill speed vanishes into thin air unless you are on a rail, which doesn't give you any real control to direct that speed aside from jumping off which will quickly kill it.

These are physics issues that can mostly be remedied with some adjustments and testing. The Boost has its weak points too (like lackluster low-speed control), but it still works, so having flaws isn't to the discredit of either.

No? When I say "Your obsession with charging up the boost in speed", I'm talking about this. Quite literally, releasing a spindash boosts your speed up from nothing to a lot, but you have to stop and charge it up. You've repeatedly talked about how you want this, and my point is that there's practical reasons why they've removed it. I'd recommend reading through what I said again with that idea in mind.

Ooooooh, okay, you were talking about the Spindash. Alright, that wasn't totally clear. A large part of the charge of the Spindash is the control and the satisfaction of using it, which both go away a bit when removing the charging part. Plus, it's just a part of the Spindash's identity.

No. The boost works fine enough for what those games were going for, but those games already exist and are in the past, and don't contain the design that I want to see in the future. My favorite boost so far is the Frontiers Spindash because of the way you can interact with the physics and level design. I don't think even this is perfect, but it's the best so far and I want them to innovate the ability in that direction. Shadow Gens is a step forward and a step backwards. It's a step forwards in that they made the boost able to hurt enemies again and there's no brief pause in movement when doing so, but it's a step backwards in that they went back to it only really having linear use with not much in the way of physics interactions.

I don't really mind Shadow Generations regressing a bit though because it's meant to be a companion game to Sonic Generations and is very specifically going out of its way to recreate the same appeal that game had. It is (much like SA3 would be) a smaller side game.

I'd be in heaven if we got a Shadow Generations-type game that was Adventure-styled. I'd buy that immediately. Anyways, this was built on an assumption, so my apologies.

 

[time gear]

These are physics issues that can mostly be remedied with some adjustments and testing. The Boost has its weak points too (like lackluster low-speed control), but it still works, so having flaws isn't to the discredit of either.

My point is exactly that both are flawed. The big mainline games moving forward shouldn't be a direct emulation of either, they should be something new that does new things while also trimming out what didn't work in the past and bringing back what did, ideally in a way that resonates with both the original trilogy's way of handling physics and an expanded version of the boost style level design. Something that feels a bit more open and allows you to make use of the physics to skip whole sections and take clever shortcuts if you get good enough with them. Another Story's cyberspace stages do a kinda decent job of this but I'd still say those are just a working proof of concept and not properly fleshed out. Still too linear, and very basic in implementation. Still, it's a step in the direction I want the series to move into.

A large part of the charge of the Spindash is the control and the satisfaction of using it, which both go away a bit when removing the charging part.

You don't get any additional control as opposed to the boost. To the contrary, charging up is less freeing because you need to stop moving to do it and it wastes time. Even if it's sped up to charge up borderline instantly which is what makes spamdash so spammable, you still encounter issues that are solved by the boost method of handling controls.

Though what did occur to me just now is that you could move the charging elsewhere instead. For instance, you could charge up a spindash while drifting around corners for an opportunity to speed up when you release. I could see that being very satisfying without the charging animation getting in the way of gameplay. It's even another opportunity to have the two things be in harmony rather than in competition with each other. You enter the drifting animation with more of an Unleashed/Colors style animation, and then it goes more Generations when you start charging up the spindash and then cosmetically maintains the spinning animation when you release akin to Lost World and Frontiers' spindash.

 

[MajorMajin64]

I think this is the most I've ever read in one sitting before, lol

 

[Metool_Man]

Lol

 

[time gear]

I think this is the most I've ever read in one sitting before, lol

Not a fan of novels I take It?

 

[MajorMajin64]

I like reading big books occasionally, but graphic novels are where it's at