Are the Classic spin off canon in the Mania universe

[Darknik]

Well I have seen everyone take the Spin off of the Classic Sonic as Knuckles Chaotix as canon in the Mania universe which for me does not make sense since these games are contradicted with Mania

for example according to the manual of Knuckle Chaotix this occurs just after Sonic 3 and Metal Sonic is repaired and on the Earth

which contradicts Sonic Mania since this game also occurs after Sonic 3 and Metal Sonic is on the Litle Planet and it is in the events of the game where Eggman Repairs Metal Sonic

so it is impossible that Knuckles Chaotix had a place before Sonic Mania

The same can be applied to Sonic Chaos Triple Trouble The Fighters or even Sonic R or any game in which Metal Sonic appears

 

[time gear]

The Metal Sonic in Mania is probably not "real". It's unclear if the Phantom Ruby in Mania works the same as the one in Forces. If it does work the same, the Metal Sonic in Mania is likely an illusion similar to the one in Forces, but as a copy of Metal Sonic as he was in CD rather than the upgraded Modern Metal Sonic. If it's actually sending Sonic and the others through time and space, then the Metal Sonic in Mania is likely actually the Metal Sonic in CD in that Sonic and the others have actually time traveled to the events of CD to visit Stardust Speedway, similar to in Generations. As such, if Metal is real, he's probably still from the past.

Sonic 4 obviously doesn't share canon with Mania, so the explanation of Metal's repair in those games doesn't apply. However, Chaotix could still be canon if you place it before Generations. This would mean the Mania timeline goes like this: Sonic 3&K > Chaotix > Generations > Mania. If we assume the Ruby in Mania is causing travel through time and space, this places this as the second time Sonic has time traveled back to the fight against Metal in CD. If it's an illusion, he's still technically re-living the same fight as it's Metal as he was from back then.

 

[Darknik]

The Metal Sonic in Mania is probably not "real". It's unclear if the Phantom Ruby in Mania works the same as the one in Forces. If it does work the same, the Metal Sonic in Mania is likely an illusion similar to the one in Forces, but as a copy of Metal Sonic as he was in CD rather than the upgraded Modern Metal Sonic. If it's actually sending Sonic and the others through time and space, then the Metal Sonic in Mania is likely actually the Metal Sonic in CD in that Sonic and the others have actually time traveled to the events of CD to visit Stardust Speedway, similar to in Generations. As such, if Metal is real, he's probably still from the past.

Sonic 4 obviously doesn't share canon with Mania, so the explanation of Metal's repair in those games doesn't apply. However, Chaotix could still be canon if you place it before Generations. This would mean the Mania timeline goes like this: Sonic 3&K > Chaotix > Generations > Mania. If we assume the Ruby in Mania is causing travel through time and space, this places this as the second time Sonic has time traveled back to the fight against Metal in CD. If it's an illusion, he's still technically re-living the same fight as it's Metal as he was from back then.

The Metal Sonic from Sonic Mania is the real since in Press garden it is seen how Eggman tries to locate Metal Sonic in the Litle Planet which implies that this Metal Sonic is the Real

 

[time gear]

The Metal Sonic from Sonic Mania is the real since in Press garden it is seen how Eggman tries to locate Metal Sonic in the Litle Planet which implies that this Metal Sonic is the Real

That could simply be interpreted as Eggman using a machine to feed data into the Phantom Ruby in relation to Metal Sonic in Stardust Speedway during CD. The Ruby then either creates an illusion of the time and place using this data, or actually sends Sonic and the others back to this time and place.

 

[Darknik]

That could simply be interpreted as Eggman using a machine to feed data into the Phantom Ruby in relation to Metal Sonic in Stardust Speedway during CD. The Ruby then either creates an illusion of the time and place using this data, or actually sends Sonic and the others back to this time and place.

In the game it implies that it is not necessary to give data to the Phanton Ruby for it to create illusions and that it works simply with the thoughts also the Phanton Ruby do not have the ability to time travel.

 

[Chezi]

The Metal Sonic in Mania is probably not "real". It's unclear if the Phantom Ruby in Mania works the same as the one in Forces. If it does work the same, the Metal Sonic in Mania is likely an illusion similar to the one in Forces, but as a copy of Metal Sonic as he was in CD rather than the upgraded Modern Metal Sonic. If it's actually sending Sonic and the others through time and space, then the Metal Sonic in Mania is likely actually the Metal Sonic in CD in that Sonic and the others have actually time traveled to the events of CD to visit Stardust Speedway, similar to in Generations. As such, if Metal is real, he's probably still from the past.

Sonic 4 obviously doesn't share canon with Mania, so the explanation of Metal's repair in those games doesn't apply. However, Chaotix could still be canon if you place it before Generations. This would mean the Mania timeline goes like this: Sonic 3&K > Chaotix > Generations > Mania. If we assume the Ruby in Mania is causing travel through time and space, this places this as the second time Sonic has time traveled back to the fight against Metal in CD. If it's an illusion, he's still technically re-living the same fight as it's Metal as he was from back then.

The Metal Sonic in Mania is real. Here’s how the games connect

Modern/Solaris Timeline: Sonic 1, Sonic CD, Sonic 2, Sonic 3&K, Sonic 4, Chaotix, and then continues up to 2006/Forces.

Classic Timeline: Sonic 1, Sonic CD, Sonic 2, Sonic 3&K, Generations, Mania, Chaotix.

I know this is the case because Knuckles leaves Angel Island for the first time in Chaotix. Metal Sonic is also recovered much more quickly in the Classic timeline due to Classic Eggman being aware that the events of Sonic 4 didn’t work out for him and Metal Sonic eventually betraying him in Heroes. We can also tell that Eggman is making more usefulness out of Metal Sonic because he lets him collect some of the emeralds in Mania Adventures.

It’s also reasonable to say that Chaotix takes place after Generations in the Classic Timeline because Knuckles and the rest of the crew weren’t involved with that. It’s also plausible that Knuckles Chaotix simply doesn’t happen in the Classic Timeline due to different circumstances and only happens in the Modern Timeline after Sonic 4 when Metal has returned

 

[DiscardedBiscuit]

I'm confused if Team Chaotix or the Classic Chaotix them selves are even canon for that matter, doesn't seem like SEGA likes to reintroduce classic characters into modern or modern into Classic. There's a archived Sonic Heroes interview where Iiizuka explains they "recreated those characters from the ground up", does that mean they only count as Modern characters now and are less likely to appear in the"Classic world"?

All the weird PR speak Iizuka has made in the past really confuses me. Also I tried to see if the museum descriptions in Sonic Generations says anything about the Chaotix past in the classic games but Steam is butt and won't run the game.

 

[time gear]

In the game it implies that it is not necessary to give data to the Phanton Ruby for it to create illusions and that it works simply with the thoughts also the Phanton Ruby do not have the ability to time travel.

We don't know that for sure. It's unclear if the Ruby works the same in Mania as it does in Forces. If it does and it cannot Time Travel, that still confirms that it creates illusions, which confirms that Metal is an illusion in Mania along with the rest of Stardust Speedway, as it is after the Ruby activates that Sonic and friends end up there.

The Metal Sonic in Mania is real. Here’s how the games connect

Modern/Solaris Timeline: Sonic 1, Sonic CD, Sonic 2, Sonic 3&K, Sonic 4, Chaotix, and then continues up to 2006/Forces.

Classic Timeline: Sonic 1, Sonic CD, Sonic 2, Sonic 3&K, Generations, Mania, Chaotix.

I know this is the case because Knuckles leaves Angel Island for the first time in Chaotix. Metal Sonic is also recovered much more quickly in the Classic timeline due to Classic Eggman being aware that the events of Sonic 4 didn’t work out for him and Metal Sonic eventually betraying him in Heroes. We can also tell that Eggman is making more usefulness out of Metal Sonic because he lets him collect some of the emeralds in Mania Adventures.

It’s also reasonable to say that Chaotix takes place after Generations in the Classic Timeline because Knuckles and the rest of the crew weren’t involved with that. It’s also plausible that Knuckles Chaotix simply doesn’t happen in the Classic Timeline due to different circumstances and only happens in the Modern Timeline after Sonic 4 when Metal has returned

The Modern Timeline and Solaris timeline are separate, though considering Solaris itself isn't relevant to any game aside from 06 the only noteworthy footnote for the Solaris Timeline is that Sonic 06 takes place after Shadow 05 and ends with the timeline reset that creates the Modern timeline.

The exact placement of Chaotix in the Modern and Solaris Timelines is irrelevant to whether or not Metal is real in Mania. It has to take place sometime before Mania in the Classic Timeline however, as Metal Sonic becomes Giga Metal in the patched version of the boss fight. This is achieved via the Phantom Ruby, indicating that if it works the same way as it does in Forces then this too is an illusion. It seems as though the Ruby is only able to create illusions of enemies Sonic and friends have encountered before, so Giga Metal must be being recreated from the memories of Knuckles and maybe Mighty. This would overall imply that the fight is an illusion created from the combined memories of Sonic, Knuckles, and Mighty.

I'm confused if Team Chaotix or the Classic Chaotix them selves are even canon for that matter, doesn't seem like SEGA likes to reintroduce classic characters into modern or modern into Classic. There's a archived Sonic Heroes interview where Iiizuka explains they "recreated those characters from the ground up", does that mean they only count as Modern characters now and are less likely to appear in the"Classic world"?

All the weird PR speak Iizuka has made in the past really confuses me. Also I tried to see if the museum descriptions in Sonic Generations says anything about the Chaotix past in the classic games but Steam is butt and won't run the game.

Vector, Espio, and Charmy are still Classic characters, they just didn't really have personalities before Heroes. As such, they were given the same reimagining treatment that Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, and Eggman did in Adventure. There's nothing stopping them from appearing in a future Classic Sonic game, though there's nothing forcing them to appear either.

 

[Darknik]

We don't know that for sure. It's unclear if the Ruby works the same in Mania as it does in Forces. If it does and it cannot Time Travel, that still confirms that it creates illusions, which confirms that Metal is an illusion in Mania along with the rest of Stardust Speedway, as it is after the Ruby activates that Sonic and friends end up there.

The Phantom Ruby from Forces is the same from mania since the Phantom Ruby ended up in the Modern dimension in the same way as the Classic Sonic

also I do not think that Metal is an illusion more than anything because as mentioned before in the game see how Eggman tries to locate it in Press garden obviously to bring him back and repair him to face Sonic and company

Classic Timeline: Sonic 1, Sonic CD, Sonic 2, Sonic 3&K, Generations, Mania, Chaotix.

Not according to the Japanese manual of Knuckles Chaotix the game happens after Sonic 3 & Knuckles since it was because of Eggman's actions in that game that the chaos rings exist in Chaotix

 

[time gear]

The Phantom Ruby from Forces is the same from mania since the Phantom Ruby ended up in the Modern dimension in the same way as the Classic Sonic

also I do not think that Metal is an illusion more than anything because as mentioned before in the game see how Eggman tries to locate it in Press garden obviously to bring him back and repair him to face Sonic and company

There's nothing in game proving that Eggman was trying to locate Metal Sonic with that machine. All that we know by looking at it is that he was trying to do something either to or with the Ruby using it. If we stick to the way the Ruby works in Forces, then the fact that Eggman was doing something with the machine regarding Metal Sonic and Little Planet, turns around, the Ruby activates, and then Sonic and friends find themselves in Stardust Speedway is all the evidence needed to conclude that both Stardust Speedway and Metal Sonic within it are Phantom Ruby Illusions.

Additionally, it was Eggman himself who busted Metal in CD accidentally as a result of Sonic winning the race against him. As such, he doesn't need to find Metal, he already knows exactly where he is.

 

[Darknik]

There's nothing in game proving that Eggman was trying to locate Metal Sonic with that machine. All that we know by looking at it is that he was trying to do something either to or with the Ruby using it. If we stick to the way the Ruby works in Forces, then the fact that Eggman was doing something with the machine regarding Metal Sonic and Little Planet, turns around, the Ruby activates, and then Sonic and friends find themselves in Stardust Speedway is all the evidence needed to conclude that both Stardust Speedway and Metal Sonic within it are Phantom Ruby Illusions.

Additionally, it was Eggman himself who busted Metal in CD accidentally as a result of Sonic winning the race against him. As such, he doesn't need to find Metal, he already knows exactly where he is.

As for there is no evidence, that you didn't see that he literally zoomed to where Metal Sonic is in a Litle Planet hologram, what else could it mean?

 

[Chezi]

Additionally, it was Eggman himself who busted Metal in CD accidentally as a result of Sonic winning the race against him. As such, he doesn't need to find Metal, he already knows exactly where he is.

He wasn’t trying to find Metal, he was contacting him to let him know that Sonic was headed that way, which is why Eggman used the Ruby to send them there.

The exact placement of Chaotix in the Modern and Solaris Timelines is irrelevant to whether or not Metal is real in Mania. It has to take place sometime before Mania in the Classic Timeline however, as Metal Sonic becomes Giga Metal in the patched version of the boss fight. This is achieved via the Phantom Ruby, indicating that if it works the same way as it does in Forces then this too is an illusion. It seems as though the Ruby is only able to create illusions of enemies Sonic and friends have encountered before, so Giga Metal must be being recreated from the memories of Knuckles and maybe Mighty. This would overall imply that the fight is an illusion created from the combined memories of Sonic, Knuckles, and Mighty.

A few problems with this: Metal is present on Angel Island after the events of Mania (Mania Plus is noncanon and what actually happens is in Mania Adventures), meaning he can’t be an illusion. Metal becoming Giga Metal only happens once he uses the Phantom Ruby, so that’s just a form he takes, similar to when the Hard Boiled Heavies become the Phantom Heavies at Titanic Monarch. Even if the Giga form was an illusion, Mighty’s memories couldn’t have contributed because Mighty wasn’t there.

Like I said earlier, Chaotix probably doesn’t happen in the Classic Timeline and happens after the events of Sonic 4 when Metal has returned to Eggman’s side

Post automatically merged: Jun 30, 2021

The Modern Timeline and Solaris timeline are separate, though considering Solaris itself isn't relevant to any game aside from 06 the only noteworthy footnote for the Solaris Timeline is that Sonic 06 takes place after Shadow 05 and ends with the timeline reset that creates the Modern timeline.

I had only mentioned the Solaris/Modern Timeline because the events that involve Metal Sonic are the same in both timelines

 

[Darknik]

(Mania Plus is noncanon and what actually happens is in Mania Adventures)

Mania plus is canon, the one that is not is Mania Adventures Tyson Hesse himself said it in Sonic Retro

 

[Chezi]

Mania plus is canon, the one that is not is Mania Adventures Tyson Hesse himself said it in Sonic Retro

I need a source on that. I would’ve heard about that by now. My line of thinking is that Mania Plus is like the Meta Knightmare and DededeTour modes from the Kirby games and was posed as a what if scenario. It wouldn’t make sense for Eggman to rebuild Titanic Monarch, rely on the Heavies, and just do everything that he just did if it didn’t work the first time. Mania Adventures poses a much more plausible scenario that literally shows Classic Sonic fading back in the same way he faded out in Forces

 

[time gear]

As for there is no evidence, that you didn't see that he literally zoomed to where Metal Sonic is in a Litle Planet hologram, what else could it mean?

As mentioned in one of my prior posts, Eggman could simply have been feeding info into the Ruby somehow. Do you not find it at all suspicious that Stardust Speedway, the last known location Metal has been to, is where Sonic and friends immediately end up after the Ruby activates after Eggman has been tinkering with a device locked in on that exact location?

He wasn’t trying to find Metal, he was contacting him to let him know that Sonic was headed that way, which is why Eggman used the Ruby to send them there.

Adding onto my previous paragraph, we don't entirely have any proof that the Ruby is capable of sending anyone anywhere aside from through it's illusions. If we assume that it doesn't create illusions in Mania then it's every bit as likely it's sending Sonic and friends through time, not just space. The safest bet is to assume the Ruby creates illusions, which places Sonic and friends in an illusory Stardust Speedway complete with a Metal Sonic illusion based on Sonic's memory of the location.

A few problems with this: Metal is present on Angel Island after the events of Mania (Mania Plus is noncanon and what actually happens is in Mania Adventures), meaning he can’t be an illusion. Metal becoming Giga Metal only happens once he uses the Phantom Ruby, so that’s just a form he takes, similar to when the Hard Boiled Heavies become the Phantom Heavies at Titanic Monarch. Even if the Giga form was an illusion, Mighty’s memories couldn’t have contributed because Mighty wasn’t there.

It's the other way around. Mania Plus is canon, Mania Adventures is just a series of promo videos to advertise Mania. As such, Metal Sonic was never on Angel Island. We've never been given any proof that the Ruby allows it's users to transform other than in a purely illusory capacity, though it is definitely interesting that it could turn Egg Robos into the Hard Boiled Heavies, and then even further into the Phantom Heavies. These are entities that didn't exist prior to the events of Mania as far as we know, so the only explanation I can think of is that Eggman created them himself at some point and then the Ruby was able to create illusions of them.

Mighty's memories contributing or not doesn't ultimately matter because Knuckles was there, but Mighty does have his own campaign outside of Encore Mode in which he fights the same boss so I'd say he was probably there anyway.

I had only mentioned the Solaris/Modern Timeline because the events that involve Metal Sonic are the same in both timelines

It would had to have happened in order for Giga Metal to even be a form Metal has by Mania.

 

[Chezi]

Adding onto my previous paragraph, we don't entirely have any proof that the Ruby is capable of sending anyone anywhere aside from through it's illusions. If we assume that it doesn't create illusions in Mania then it's every bit as likely it's sending Sonic and friends through time, not just space. The safest bet is to assume the Ruby creates illusions, which places Sonic and friends in an illusory Stardust Speedway complete with a Metal Sonic illusion based on Sonic's memory of the location.

I can tell you that this is all false because the first thing we see the Phantom Ruby ever do is send Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles from Angel Island to Green Hill and then the next time we see it, it transports them to Chemical Plant Zone. Saying it’s an illusionary Stardust Speedway is just flat out false.

It's the other way around. Mania Plus is canon, Mania Adventures is just a series of promo videos to advertise Mania. As such, Metal Sonic was never on Angel Island. We've never been given any proof that the Ruby allows it's users to transform other than in a purely illusory capacity, though it is definitely interesting that it could turn Egg Robos into the Hard Boiled Heavies, and then even further into the Phantom Heavies. These are entities that didn't exist prior to the events of Mania as far as we know, so the only explanation I can think of is that Eggman created them himself at some point and then the Ruby was able to create illusions of them.

Again, I need proof that says Mania Adventures is Non Canon and my reasoning for so was stated earlier

It would had to have happened in order for Giga Metal to even be a form Metal has by Mania.

You missed what I was trying to say completely

 

[Darknik]

I need a source on that. I would’ve heard about that by now. My line of thinking is that Mania Plus is like the Meta Knightmare and DededeTour modes from the Kirby games and was posed as a what if scenario. It wouldn’t make sense for Eggman to rebuild Titanic Monarch, rely on the Heavies, and just do everything that he just did if it didn’t work the first time. Mania Adventures poses a much more plausible scenario that literally shows Classic Sonic fading back in the same way he faded out in Forces

I'm trying to find that conversation but I can't because my internet is the slowest thing in the world and the page never finishes loading

but I can show you where I get the information from but I must warn you that it is a video in Spanish because it is my native language

 

[Chezi]

I'm trying to find that conversation but I can't because my internet is the slowest thing in the world and the page never finishes loading

but I can show you where I get the information from but I must warn you that it is a video in Spanish because it is my native language

He didn’t outright say it was noncanon. He just said that doesn’t think it needs to be canon. That means this decision isn’t up to him and Sega themselves are the ones that need to declare it as noncanon

 

[Darknik]

Adding onto my previous paragraph, we don't entirely have any proof that the Ruby is capable of sending anyone anywhere aside from through it's illusions. If we assume that it doesn't create illusions in Mania then it's every bit as likely it's sending Sonic and friends through time, not just space. The safest bet is to assume the Ruby creates illusions, which places Sonic and friends in an illusory Stardust Speedway complete with a Metal Sonic illusion based on Sonic's memory of the location.

As for there is no proof, at the end of Sonic Mania it is clearly seen how the Phantom Ruby transports Classic Sonic to the Modern Sonic Dimension

 

[time gear]

I can tell you that this is all false because the first thing we see the Phantom Ruby ever do is send Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles from Angel Island to Green Hill and then the next time we see it, it transports them to Chemical Plant Zone. Saying it’s an illusionary Stardust Speedway is just flat out false.

All that would mean is that Green Hill, Chemical Plant, etc. are also illusions. It doesn't disprove illusory Stardust Speedway in the slightest.

As for there is no proof, at the end of Sonic Mania it is clearly seen how the Phantom Ruby transports Classic Sonic to the Modern Sonic Dimension

Notice how it's not just the Ruby involved in this, but also the Chaos Emeralds. We already know the Chaos Emeralds are capable of sending you across Space, Time, and even Dimensions. Chaos Control can act as either a time slow/stop, a teleport, or a rapid burst of speed forward. They are used in Sonic 06 to time travel, and are used in the Rush games to cross the dimensional barrier.

On that note, it could also be that Sonic was sent directly to Encore mode, and the Classic Sonic that appears in Forces is actually an illusion created by the Ruby at Egg Reverie that was sent into Modern Sonic's timeline by the Emeralds. This doesn't need to be true as it doesn't really change anything, I just wanted to point it out as a neat possibility.