Are the Classic spin off canon in the Mania universe

time gear

Eternity in an hour
since if we take into account the Japanese dialogues of Sonic Forces it is mentioned that all copies of Ruby are weaker than their original versions at the beginning of Forces and in Mania since as mentioned in the battle against the Death Egg Robot Eggman overclocked the Phantom Ruby which means that the Phantom Ruby seen in forces is an improved version of the one seen in Mania and at the beginning of the same game
Where is it ever mentioned that Eggman overclocked the Ruby? The game itself doesn't have dialogue and the manual doesn't mention anything about this.
 

Lightnik

Lord of lights and shadows
Where is it ever mentioned that Eggman overclocked the Ruby? The game itself doesn't have dialogue and the manual doesn't mention anything about this.
Is mentioned in the Japanese dialogues in Forces by Tails during the Deat Egg Robot fight
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
Because that means he knows how to properly use it in Forces due to having it for several years, whereas in Mania he’s only had it for a couple hours
That's not necessarily true. It just means that he had more of a solid plan in Forces. The Ruby literally pretty much fell on his lap in Forces, whereas he had to track it down in Mania and Sonic and the others were already there to witness it's retrieval. He still makes adequate use of it pretty much immediately in Mania after retrieving it. Arguably even moreso than in the Modern timeline, as Modern Eggman only ever used it to augment his allies and machines while Classic used it directly to send others away.
 

Chezi

Chili Dogs
That's not necessarily true. It just means that he had more of a solid plan in Forces. The Ruby literally pretty much fell on his lap in Forces, whereas he had to track it down in Mania and Sonic and the others were already there to witness it's retrieval. He still makes adequate use of it pretty much immediately in Mania after retrieving it. Arguably even moreso than in the Modern timeline, as Modern Eggman only ever used it to augment his allies and machines while Classic used it directly to send others away.
That is necessarily true and you’re ignoring plain ol evidence
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
That is necessarily true and you’re ignoring plain ol evidence
Nonsense, all you are presenting me is headcanon that you are insisting must be true. All I'm saying is that it isn't necessarily true. This entire thread I'm the one who's been trying to base things on evidence, such as based on how we have actually seen the ruby being used. I've been pointing out that Metal Sonic in Mania is most likely not the real one based on evidences of what we know about both games, and all I get in response is a barrage of headcanon that he must be the real one 100% because a few things in your head happen to line up vaguely right for it to be a possibility.

Honestly at this point we seriously just aren't getting anywhere. This is one of those situations where we would all probably be better off agreeing to disagree, rather than fruitlessly trying to convince each other who is right.
 

Linlam

That's cool and all but u should watch Evangelion
I think the Metal Sonic from Mania is the real one because we've never seen a clone/illusion use the power of the ruby to transform. From what I remember, the illusions can't harness the power of the ruby by themselves, and we clearly see Metal Sonic using the phantom ruby to become more powerful in the second phase of the fight in Mania's Stardust Speedway.

I think the Metal Sonic fight in mania might be an alternative timeline of CD created by the phantom ruby. Eggman wants Metal Sonic back, so he goes back to Little Planet (with Sonic by accident) to retrieve Metal Sonic and destroy Sonic. However, Sonic also goes back and foils Eggman's plan by defeating Metal Sonic. After that, Eggman uses the phantom ruby again and throws Sonic in Hidrocity.
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
From what I remember, the illusions can't harness the power of the ruby by themselves, and we clearly see Metal Sonic using the phantom ruby to become more powerful in the second phase of the fight in Mania's Stardust Speedway.
There is actually evidence that the Infinite Sonic and the playable avatar defeat in Forces could be a Phantom Ruby Illusion. He kinda flickers like he's fading away after his defeat, just before he gets pulled off by a mysterious force. Meanwhile, the Ruby's signature effects glow around him. Throughout the fight itself, he's clearly using the power of the Ruby to power himself however.

It pulls into question why Infinite would send a Ruby clone of himself to fight though, and where he disappeared off to. Perhaps all that was intended as sequel bait?
 

Chezi

Chili Dogs
Nonsense, all you are presenting me is headcanon that you are insisting must be true. All I'm saying is that it isn't necessarily true. This entire thread I'm the one who's been trying to base things on evidence, such as based on how we have actually seen the ruby being used. I've been pointing out that Metal Sonic in Mania is most likely not the real one based on evidences of what we know about both games, and all I get in response is a barrage of headcanon that he must be the real one 100% because a few things in your head happen to line up vaguely right for it to be a possibility.

Honestly at this point we seriously just aren't getting anywhere. This is one of those situations where we would all probably be better off agreeing to disagree, rather than fruitlessly trying to convince each other who is right.
I haven’t been giving you any sort of headcanon. I don’t even like having headcanons about games. I’ve been attempting to support all my claims with evidence from the games and when Linlam comes in with,
From what I remember, the illusions can't harness the power of the ruby by themselves, and we clearly see Metal Sonic using the phantom ruby to become more powerful in the second phase of the fight in Mania's Stardust Speedway.
you still choose to ignore it even though that this is an accurate claim. Illusions themselves cannot harness energy from the Phantom Ruby. Even if they could, why wouldn’t Eggman just start Metal out in his Giga Form? There are so many loose ends to your claims and they’re closer to headcanon then what I’ve been claiming
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
I haven’t been giving you any sort of headcanon. I don’t even like having headcanons about games. I’ve been attempting to support all my claims with evidence from the games and when Linlam comes in with
You are formulating an unconfirmed theory by piecing together things in your head. That's headcanon. No matter how much you try to say it's not, it still is.

you still choose to ignore it even though that this is an accurate claim. Illusions themselves cannot harness energy from the Phantom Ruby.
You claim I'm ignoring evidence, yet you seem to have ignored the entirety of my previous post. Perhaps you like to ignore evidence that doesn't suit your headcanon?

Even if they could, why wouldn’t Eggman just start Metal out in his Giga Form? There are so many loose ends to your claims and they’re closer to headcanon then what I’ve been claiming
There's no such thing as "closer" to headcanon. Any particular theory either is or isn't headcanon. There's no halfway.

Your logic works both ways. If Giga Metal is so inherently better, why not just upgrade the real Metal Sonic to have been in that form from the start? The reality of the situation is that regardless of whether Metal was an illusion or not, Giga Metal is a huge, slow target. He only uses the Ruby to activate the form in a last ditch effort when Metal has already otherwise lost the fight.

Again, this is seriously going nowhere. Why the stubborn insistence on this pointless argument? We have clearly both grown tired of this yet here we are still going back and forth with this.
 
Don't all the ruby illusion characters do that glitchy effect at one point or another? At least when defeated usually while also disappearing. Why does Mania Metal Sonic need to hook up to a machine to fire projectiles and summon robots when the Forces Metal Sonic is already larger than usual and can conjure things and make things float around him? Seems generally more powerful than the Mania one to start.
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
Don't all the ruby illusion characters do that glitchy effect at one point or another? At least when defeated usually while also disappearing. Why does Mania Metal Sonic need to hook up to a machine to fire projectiles and summon robots when the Forces Metal Sonic is already larger than usual and can conjure things and make things float around him? Seems generally more powerful than the Mania one to start.
There's more than one Metal illusion in Forces. The one in the early game for example is normal sized. Additionally, each of the illusions in that scene display the Ruby effects on entry, but then the effects fade and only reappear briefly on occasion. It's worth noting that the Ruby looks slightly different in Mania, including it's effects. Even when it's used for a power up, it doesn't do the same effects that are present on Infinite or etc. or really any effects at all aside from the transformations themselves.
 

Chezi

Chili Dogs
There's more than one Metal illusion in Forces. The one in the early game for example is normal sized. Additionally, each of the illusions in that scene display the Ruby effects on entry, but then the effects fade and only reappear briefly on occasion. It's worth noting that the Ruby looks slightly different in Mania, including it's effects. Even when it's used for a power up, it doesn't do the same effects that are present on Infinite or etc. or really any effects at all aside from the transformations themselves.
Having just played that fight, I can tell you multiple things that prove my point. First off, there’s a giant Egg man building that wasn’t present in CD. Second off, when Giga shatters you can clearly see regular Metal Sonic fall down out of the illusion. If he was an illusion to begin with, he would have shattered along with his Giga form. Third off, when Eggman is locating Metal in Press Garden, you can see him check on Metal’s vitals to make sure that he’s still running. All of this seems to point that this is a return visit to Stardust Speedway (Little Planet’s time travel functions differently than what we’ve seen in Generations) and that this is the same instance of Metal that we already know
 
There's some other oddities I noticed, at the start of Mania, Egg Robos are transformed just being in proximity, but was it Eggman's thoughts or the Egg Robos themselves giving these forms (this might be silly to think cause they're machines though)

Later instead of using the Ruby on Metal Sonic by proximity, he just gives him the Ruby. Why did he need to do this? is Metal Sonic using it as a power supply like the final boss in Forces or is Metal Sonic using it directly himself? Again if it was Eggman it'd be weird he had to toss the Ruby at him when he didn't need to do that before for the Egg Robos. If it was as a power supply I'd find that redundant unless it's the only way to get a more powerful form but Chezi made me realize it had to be directly from the Ruby cause why would he pop out of his form shattering like it was some giant exosuit? Maybe it's both though since he seems to keep it in some dome and fires pink lasers.
 

lnferno

Blazing Creator
You are formulating an unconfirmed theory by piecing together things in your head. That's headcanon. No matter how much you try to say it's not, it still is.
All I'll say is that this is a double-edged sword. It also drags you down to just making headcanon, as you're also making an unconfirmed theory by piecing together things in YOUR head.

Both of you are using similar evidence types, so both of you would be just arguing over your preferred headcanons by your logic.
 

time gear

Eternity in an hour
All I'll say is that this is a double-edged sword. It also drags you down to just making headcanon, as you're also making an unconfirmed theory by piecing together things in YOUR head.

Both of you are using similar evidence types, so both of you would be just arguing over your preferred headcanons by your logic.
The difference is I've only been saying Metal is likely to be an illusion and backing it up with evidence, not saying he 100% must be real and here's evidence being used as if it's proof to debunk him being an illusion. Sure, maybe we are both arguing headcanon, but I was never trying to force anyone to believe anything to begin with. Just backing up my viewpoint with evidence, which I can easily still do.

Having just played that fight, I can tell you multiple things that prove my point. First off, there’s a giant Egg man building that wasn’t present in CD.
There's also an entire section to the fight taking place in a room that wasn't in CD. In what way would this hurt the chances of it being an illusion?

Second off, when Giga shatters you can clearly see regular Metal Sonic fall down out of the illusion. If he was an illusion to begin with, he would have shattered along with his Giga form.
How do you know? It's clear things are visually different in Mania.

Third off, when Eggman is locating Metal in Press Garden, you can see him check on Metal’s vitals to make sure that he’s still running. All of this seems to point that this is a return visit to Stardust Speedway (Little Planet’s time travel functions differently than what we’ve seen in Generations) and that this is the same instance of Metal that we already know
Metal doesn't have vitals. He's a robot. He definitely is displaying information of some type on the screen, but to go so far as to say these are vital signs is a huge logical stretch. And before you say it, it doesn't make sense in the slightest he would have a flicky or anything powering him from the inside. That little critter would have died a long time ago. It's clear that Metal is an ordinary robot (comparatively speaking) and not a badnik.

There's some other oddities I noticed, at the start of Mania, Egg Robos are transformed just being in proximity, but was it Eggman's thoughts or the Egg Robos themselves giving these forms (this might be silly to think cause they're machines though)
Considering robots like Metal Sonic made by Eggman exist, it's not so unreasonable that the Egg Robos could have had a rather complex AI that gives them free thought. It's hard to say for sure though regarding their transformations. We barely even understand how the Chaos Emeralds work in regards to different characters transforming, let alone an entire new maguffin.

Later instead of using the Ruby on Metal Sonic by proximity, he just gives him the Ruby. Why did he need to do this? is Metal Sonic using it as a power supply like the final boss in Forces or is Metal Sonic using it directly himself? Again if it was Eggman it'd be weird he had to toss the Ruby at him when he didn't need to do that before for the Egg Robos.
I'd assume one makes the most out of it by having it near, but doesn't need it to stay near just to transform to begin with. Effectively, it's broken down into two separate things. The first is the transformation itself, the second is whether or not the Ruby is being used like a battery to juice up the transformation once you have it. Eggman was going to considerable lengths to try to make sure Sonic and friends didn't make it out of this fight, that much is clear from him triggering the transformation to begin with. As such, if he was that desperate doesn't it make sense he would want the Ruby to be there making the form stronger to help boost it's odds of winning?

If it was as a power supply I'd find that redundant unless it's the only way to get a more powerful form but Chezi made me realize it had to be directly from the Ruby cause why would he pop out of his form shattering like it was some giant exosuit? Maybe it's both though since he seems to keep it in some dome and fires pink lasers.
As much as I'd love to use the lasers as an evidence of being an illusion, I can't do that. Lasers come in all kinds of colors naturally, and pink/purple happens to be a common color Metal uses in addition to yellow. I've already covered the "popping out" thing as probably just being a visual difference with how Mania handles defeats as opposed to Forces, so this is all fairly inconclusive in either direction. Though, thinking about it, it does kinda boost the illusion theory in that if it is a Metal illusion and it can't actually transform, it would have to wear an illusion of the transformation around itself to mimick said transformation. It's not a very big boost though, because we don't even know for sure if the real Metal Sonic could transform with the Ruby to begin with, so all it suggests is that Giga Metal is probably an illusion.
 
That is true Metal does use pink/purple a lot, though I was more thinking it was just giving him additional firepower in the Giga form, or he's just keeping it for storage in which case, why didn't Eggman keep holding on to it?

I can't actually rule out an illusion Metal Sonic using a magic transform on top of itself as opposed to a power sourced "natural" transformation the latter case you'd definitely get no Metal popping out regardless if Metal himself is an illusion or not, maybe this was to actually protect himself in some way?
It's worth noting I think illusions can do anything the originals can, they're just weaker, usually fading away in a case where the original would just be passed out, so the Metal in the Giga form could still be an illusion and faded away off screen, or he's still at large but what would he do?

I think it's very much possible for Eggman to be checking a machines vitals remotely, like how you'd check a ships vitals by checking the status of important components but it is pretty weird there appears to be a heart monitor like zig zag on his monitor in relation to Metal and I wouldn't think he was a badnik either.
 

lnferno

Blazing Creator
Metal doesn't have vitals. He's a robot.
I'd just like to point out that the term "vitals" is indeed used for computers to indicate their performance in several areas.

Even if this isn't relevant, we know what Chezi meant: Robotnik was likely checking to see if Metal Sonic was even still functional.

Why would he need any information and statistics from the original Metal if he could just conjure up a illusion Metal with what he remembers? Illusions are already stated as being weaker IN Forces, so it's not like knowing exact stats would make a difference.

On top of this, the Phantom Ruby uses different powers in Forces compared to Mania. In Mania, it can warp space-time. In Forces? It's stated as only being able to create Illusions. Unless all of Mania is an illusion, there's a disperancy here. You COULD state that the Terminal in Forces was simply stating all Robotnik knew.. Robotnik had the gem for longer than he did in Mania (A few months before his conquest, and the 6 months that he ruled the planet). It seems unlikely to me that he wouldn't run into the warping properties by sheer accident, like he did in Mania extremely quickly.

And no, the sun doesn't quite count; if it did, they'd all instantly be dead, as a star would be RIGHT above the planet, and even further, everyone on the planet would die. Unless we throw out all logic.

So, putting all that together... I find it unlikely that the Metal in Mania is an illusion.
 

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