Why can only Sonic and Metal turn super?

good idea, though i believe the game might be too short for that.
but then again, the Super Emeralds could be obtainable if the player got the Chaos Emeralds as early as Techno Hill Act 2, since there's a lot of the game left by then.
 
BlueSmoke said:
No Super Cancelling and Super Cancelling all have it's own trade-offs. I say have it as an option in settings, so the player can choose which style they like.
Click to expand...

There is no tradeoff to super cancelling unless super cancelling explicitly comes with some sort of cost, like subtracting your total ring count.
 
Icarus said:
Super Sonic is supposed to be a reward, being able to cancel it should be a part of the reward (especially since he's hard to control in precise platforming sections).
Click to expand...
Yeah, super sonic is very annoying in precise platforming sections, especially in levels like Castle Eggman. I believe super cancelling could help incases like those.
I also think that while Super cancelling already has its pros and cons like the vanilla Super Sonic does now, it probably could use an extra trade-off. Something like a 30 second cooldown after cancelling, so that there's much more of a risk when it comes to losing your rings after cancelling, and having to collect 50 again. I think that'd be a neat idea.
And again, since the feature purely depends on player preference, it should be an option in settings, and since the mass majority (at least in this thread) prefers not to have super cancelling, it should be off by default.

---------- Post added at 08:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:28 PM ----------
There is no tradeoff to super cancelling unless super cancelling explicitly comes with some sort of cost, like subtracting your total ring count.
Click to expand...
__________________
Cancelling your super form does mean you get to preserve it, but you also risk losing all your rings and only being able to recover a small percentage, making you have to meet the ring quota again if you want to turn Super again.
Click to expand...
If you drop below 50 rings and cancel, you also can't change back until you get enough rings again.
Click to expand...
Super cancelling does come with its own trade-offs, including what you said.
A cooldown would also be another trade-off with the feature, it raises the stakes higher. Like, if the cooldown was set to like 30 seconds or so, the player would have a risk of getting hit during the cooldown, which means having to collect 50 again. Even if they decide to wait, on some stages that's not going to be an option since some badniks are very aggressive and water is in the game. You still miss out on some points as well, and if there's a time limit set, that means they also have a chance of dying because of the time limit. Super cancelling already has trade-offs, and cooldowns would mean more trade-offs as well.
 
On the topic of Super Canceling, one potential balance that comes to mind is allowing it, but giving it a ring cost. Say for example, 10 rings. So if you go Super and drop down below 10 rings, you don't have enough anymore to cancel the transformation and are forced to commit until you either lose the form or manage to get above 10 rings.

Alternatively, you could put a limitation on it where you need more than, say, 40 rings to cancel it but it doesn't cost anything. This would at least make it so that players aren't just canceling the form to retain their ability to take a hit when their number of rings gets low.
 
While I don't have any problems with super-canceling itself, I don't think it should be in vanilla (even as an option).
What makes Super Sonic interesting is not just the ability to be super fast and invincible, but also the tension of running out of rings. Not only do I need to consider whether transforming early is a good idea, but I'm also forced to collect rings quickly to maintain my super form when they are about to run out. Super-canceling just trades away this tension for convenience. Plus, it would require an extra button (you can't just press spin in midair because of Super Sonic's hover). If people really want to make use of it, well, they can just use a mod (I remember such mod existing for 2.1, not sure about 2.2).

As for super form ideas for Tails, Amy and Fang:

  • On top of infinite flight, I think Tails should be given a single flicky helper that functions just like Cheese, being able to target enemies and monitors by pressing Spin when Tails is not flying.
  • Amy could receive her super hammer jump from Adventure, by hammering the ground when running. Not sure what ability she could gain when pressing Spin in midair.
  • Regardless of what abililies Fang gains, I do not want him to ride the Marvelous Queen. It doesn't make sense for him to require all emeralds to make use of his bike. Perhaps the pogo jump could act as a stomp when activated, except it doesn't cancel horizontal momentum and causes a quake that destroys nearby enemies on the ground.
 
Last edited:
The main point I have in favor of Super cancel being a thing is that it's not actually impossible to activate it unintentionally, either through muscle reflex or just simply pressing the wrong button on accident. For example, if you just lost a shield you might still be in the mental habit of pressing spin in midair to do a thing, and in the process accidentally go Super.

In this case, the second of my previous suggestions would be incredibly helpful, allowing the player to de-transform in the event of accidental transformation so long as they are above 40 rings. That's 10 full seconds at least for the player to make up their mind that they don't want to use their Super form before they lose too many rings and are forced to commit.

Alternatively if being above a certain ring count isn't a viable compromise, simply placing a 5 to 10 second timer on the player when they transform during which time they can cancel the form could work better. The main difference with this approach is even if the player has 100 rings, they still only have a few seconds to decide to detransform before they are forced to commit. To balance this out further, perhaps another cooldown of, say, 30 seconds could be applied after the transformation is canceled during which the player is unable to transform again, so as to prevent abuse.

As for which button to map it to, I don't really think toss flag would conflict with anything, at least in single player. This way there's no need to start delving into the matter of the custom buttons.
 
Interesting action gameplay is about restrictions. Super may be a gameplay sanctioned god mode, but you still die in deathpits, crushers, drown underwater and get comically splatted on the wall in a minecart. You can't fly upwards and ignore level geometry entirely (which is reserved for Tails). You can't violate pathsplits with the new Super Knuckles, due to his jumpheight restriction remaining in place. And you can't stop the countdown before you reach 0 rings and become vulnerable. So why would that change?

A good comparison is probably the Elytra in Minecraft, which I've been playing a lot of lately. It's an endgame reward which allows you unparalleled control of the player, but there are drawbacks. The game had traditional freeform Creative Flight implemented already, but these didn't introduce it into Survival. Instead, it's more of a glider - height converted to momentum, unless you have Fireworks - a limited resource. The item has durability - a limited resource which means you could run out while high in the air and hit the ground hard. And you can't get round its other drawback, which is that it hogs the chestplate inventory slot, not allowing players to maintain their practical Protection V powerhouse gear that would make them practically invulnerable. Every one of the drawbacks I've pointed out has been complained about and had ways to circumvent it suggested many a time, but the developers have never seriously considered them because it misses the point. You get to have endgame fun, but it carries an element of risk for you too.

And so it goes for Super transformations, too. Endgame fun with an element of risk.

(I've seen it suggested that you could cancel the Super transformation animation and turn back to normal. That sounds way more likely and in-keeping with the game design.)
 
Last edited:
If super cancelling becomes a feature, first of all, it should be optional. Second, it must have additional drawbacks to add its own tension and risk that people seem to like. Some suggestions include:
On the topic of Super Canceling, one potential balance that comes to mind is allowing it, but giving it a ring cost. Say for example, 10 rings. So if you go Super and drop down below 10 rings, you don't have enough anymore to cancel the transformation and are forced to commit until you either lose the form or manage to get above 10 rings.

Alternatively, you could put a limitation on it where you need more than, say, 40 rings to cancel it but it doesn't cost anything. This would at least make it so that players aren't just canceling the form to retain their ability to take a hit when their number of rings gets low.
Click to expand...
Alternatively if being above a certain ring count isn't a viable compromise, simply placing a 5 to 10 second timer on the player when they transform during which time they can cancel the form could work better. The main difference with this approach is even if the player has 100 rings, they still only have a few seconds to decide to detransform before they are forced to commit. To balance this out further, perhaps another cooldown of, say, 30 seconds could be applied after the transformation is canceled during which the player is unable to transform again, so as to prevent abuse.
Click to expand...
Super cancelling does come with its own trade-offs, including what you said.
A cooldown would also be another trade-off with the feature, it raises the stakes higher. Like, if the cooldown was set to like 30 seconds or so, the player would have a risk of getting hit during the cooldown, which means having to collect 50 again. Even if they decide to wait, on some stages that's not going to be an option since some badniks are very aggressive and water is in the game. You still miss out on some points as well, and if there's a time limit set, that means they also have a chance of dying because of the time limit. Super cancelling already has trade-offs, and cooldowns would mean more trade-offs as well.
Click to expand...
Super cancelling can work great if done right.
 
Super cancelling with restrictions is still an unnecessary feature that changes the game for the worse IMO. I wouldn't mind if they made it a mod, but I don't think it should be part of the vanilla game. Besides, there's the aforementioned button problem. And if they added another action button, I'd rather they used it for another action, or something more substantial and less situational than Super cancel. Even if they made it an optional feature, it would still prevent other actions from being mapped to that button - unless they wanted to cause button conflicts for people who enable Super cancel.
 
Last edited:
Spiky said:
Super cancelling with restrictions is still an unnecessary feature that changes the game for the worse IMO. I wouldn't mind if they made it a mod, but I don't think it should be part of the vanilla game. Besides, there's the aforementioned button problem. And if they added another action button, I'd rather they used it for another action, or something more substantial and less situational than Super cancel. Even if they made it an optional feature, it would still prevent other actions from being mapped to that button - unless they wanted to cause button conflicts for people who enable Super cancel.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure the Fire button would work in both campaign modes.
 
Canceling the transformation animation should absolutely be a feature. It's not common, but I sometimes activate Super by accident when I try to land into a spin.

Besides that, I think I'm against Super Canceling after the first ~2 seconds. Super Sonic is all about the tension of constant ring drain and keeping the transformation going for as long as possible, and being able to cancel seems fundamentally opposed to that.
 
Unknownlight said:
Besides that, I think I'm against Super Canceling after the first ~2 seconds.
Click to expand...

What if we took this and applied it to the transformation animation itself. Maybe pressing spin again during the animation would cancel it and revert you too normal. This removes the need to add an additional button while still making it possible. And in the case we're worried about mashing cancelling it, we could make it jump instead.
 
Unknownlight said:
Canceling the transformation animation should absolutely be a feature. It's not common, but I sometimes activate Super by accident when I try to land into a spin.
Click to expand...

I think a good way to prevent accidental transformations would be to adjust the transformation input a bit. Maybe change it so that you need to hold jump and then press spin, to keep people from turning super when they really just wanted to do a landing roll.

On the topic of form cancelling, I'm rather against it cause I feel that Super Forms should be a commitment, something that the player should be absolutely sure they want to use, taking into account the circumstances of a stage and the drawbacks of the form itself.
 
GrayAngel said:
Super Knuckles was recently patched in. It remains to be seen if other characters will get Super forms in later patches.
Click to expand...
Ooh that explains it lol, I also liked the new skills he gets on super form!

---------- Post added at 12:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 AM ----------

Icarus said:
Knuckles is the character that deserved a Super mode the most out of all.
Click to expand...
Yup, that's what i thought, and that's what i agree.
 
Netosilvagames said:
Yup, that's what i thought, and that's what I agree.
Click to expand...
And I think that Tails being somewhat the "easy mode" of the game should justify him being denied of any Super form to encourage players to beat the game with other characters.


As for
Amy and Fang they're just side/bonus characters that doesn't need a Super form
because they never interacts with the Chaos Emerald
 
Icarus said:
And I think that Tails being somewhat the "easy mode" of the game should justify him being denied of any Super form to encourage players to beat the game with other characters.


As for Amy and Fang they're just side/bonus characters that doesn't need a Super form because they never interacts with the Chaos Emerald
Click to expand...

I'll be real chief this is a pretty spicy take. Regardless of Tails being easy mode or not there should still be a reward for going out of your way to get the 7 emeralds. Same goes for Amy and Fang. Not rewarding a character with super because of how they normally play or non-existing canon feels like old guard reasoning.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Who is viewing this thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)

Back
Top