What ? Is Egg Rock Zone too hard for you ? Well...

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Netro said:
"Hey Devs, please make THE LAST ZONE OF THE GAME as easy as Greenflower Zone because I can't beat the LAST ZONE OF THE GAME. Also make the third boss as easy as Greenflower Zone's boss because it is too hard for being THE THIRD BOSS" In all seriousness ERZ is the last Zone of the game, it NEEDS to be hard, if Dark City was in the game right now, you'd be stuck there instead, actually, scratch that, You'd be stuck on Red Volcano Zone's Boss, because the game is going on a constant level of difficulty. Greenflower being tutorial level like.
Techno Hill being easy
Deep Sea being an average 3rd level.
Castle Eggman being moderate in difficulty
Arid Canyon in middle grounds. (even though right now it is pretty easy.)
Red Volcano being starting to get hard.
Skip a level and we get...
Egg Rock Zone being THE LAST ZONE OF THE GAME (very hard).
Stop complaining. The Zone isn't even that hard. There's something called learn from your mistakes and stop complaining to the developers about good design choices.



Thank you. Finally.
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I never said any of that. I was listing suggestions to the Devs on how to make the levels easier, and stuff I thought could be nerfed a bit.
 
If Strafing is use in match to dodge... Why would it be useless in SP mode??

Rex The Kitsune said:
Okay, how about this?
ERZ1 -
2. That laser hallway with impossible to avoid lasers.
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Rex The Kitsune said:
Strafing is ridiculous and has no point outside of Match.
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I think I know why you're having problems with the laser hallway.


Also you could just use the shield to thok through all the lasers and lose it in the process. Granted, that does look "fast" but that's because gif file size grows quickly and can't be slow, but you can do this as slow as you want as long as you figure out what to do... Although I do agree on your points on DSZ3.

Last note, I feel like some of ERZ is what I call "Sonic Rush" hard. Where a player is thrown into a completely new gimmick and unless he knows exactly how to handle the situation in less than 3 seconds, he loses a life...
Explaining why I think some people find it super easy, and other frustratingly hard.
 
Every of Rex's posts are basically "Change ERZ to be easier so I don't suck at it!"

Seriously, get used to it. ERZ2 is actually easier compared to how it was in 2.0, with that giant fan room where you had to move to the sides to not hit explosive barrels or to not fall into your death (that path was impossible when playing in servers for me). Go find a better excuse to justify your lack of skill at the level rather than blaming it on death traps that ARE supposed to be there. If you can't see what you're supposed to do, then get used to it, improve your skill, and stop thinking that "SOME PEOPLE ARE NOT SO SKILLED" is a reason for changing the level. If majority of the community can play through the level, don't blame the game, do something about it and get better at playing it.

I now await when Rex makes a topic about how Black Hole is too hard for him and that everyone should change it because "NOT EVERYONE IS SO SKILLED, MY OPINION IS A FACT".
 
MotorRoach said:
Every of Rex's posts are basically "Change ERZ to be easier so I don't suck at it!"

Seriously, get used to it. ERZ2 is actually easier compared to how it was in 2.0, with that giant fan room where you had to move to the sides to not hit explosive barrels or to not fall into your death (that path was impossible when playing in servers for me). Go find a better excuse to justify your lack of skill at the level rather than blaming it on death traps that ARE supposed to be there. If you can't see what you're supposed to do, then get used to it, improve your skill, and stop thinking that "SOME PEOPLE ARE NOT SO SKILLED" is a reason for changing the level. If majority of the community can play through the level, don't blame the game, do something about it and get better at playing it.

I now await when Rex makes a topic about how Black Hole is too hard for him and that everyone should change it because "NOT EVERYONE IS SO SKILLED, MY OPINION IS A FACT".
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Well someone is being extremely rude and pushy.
 
Yes, I'm being so pushy by telling to someone to learn how to play the game. Asking the developers to change the levels to your liking isn't pushy at all.
 
ERZ isn't that hard, I've gotten all the Record Attack emblems on it (well, except for act 3 for now), but ERZ is nothing compared to stages like ATZ and Black Hole. THAT is truly hard and challenging.
 
MotorRoach said:
Yes, I'm being so pushy by telling to someone to learn how to play the game. Asking the developers to change the levels to your liking isn't pushy at all.
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> Assuming I don't know how to play the game.
Yes, I don't know how to play the game. I couldn't pass the first level let alone learn to thok. You truly are the best at knowing things.
 
"I do know how to play the game, and I'm skilled at it! Why can't I get through ERZ then?! It's your fault, developers! MAKE THE LEVEL EASIER!"

Wow, you are comparing the last level to the first level. I'm not saying learning to play the game as in "This button jumps, and this button spins". I'm saying in the "Oh, so I'm supposed to get through that path by doing this and not go too far off" kind of way.

I'll just stop posting on this thread. It's pointless talking to a wall.
 
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h4307F3C7

Don't expect them to change something just because you're a negative in a stack of positives.
 
Knuckles MetalMind said:
I can´t fully agree with what you say, Sonoob.


I don´t know for how many years you have been a gamer and on what generation you started playing. I personally started between 2nd and 3rd, around 8bits, when games were brutally hard because most games had less than an hour of gameplay, and the fun of the game was playing until you mastered the game, so you could finish that hour of gameplay. Today most mainstream games are so easy that rarely last more than an evening, even having like 7 or 8 times as much content. I personally needed more than 4 years to complete Alex Kidd in Miracle World, as I sucked at videogames back in the day and I had to restart the entire game each time I tried to complete it.


I wouldn´t like games to get that far today, but I seriously think most games are becoming so easy and dull that they usually feel just like a movie with some input here and that. I don´t want SRB2 to become that, and trying to make the game more mainstream by lowering too much the difficulty would personally hit one of the best points of the game: The balance between being somehow hard without getting too hard. I´ve played plenty of challenges and games harder than ERZ. I´m not saying it´s easy, but it´s the last zone of the entire game. It MUST be hard. It should be a wall you should break after practicing enough. If it´s your first playthrough, you should lose at the zone. Personally, beating a game that has lives on your first playthrough means the game is too easy. The live system is there for giving a Game Over sometimes. If you aren´t a good player and you beat the game on the first try, something is clearly wrong.


With all that said, I entirely agree with you that some places on ERZ are more unfair than hard to new players (just like the snail on the Megaman platforms path, which personally was hard enough without the snail), and that the zone needs some tweakings on some rooms. But they are small changes from the overall design of the level. If you find a spot too unfair just point it out, and it may be fixable. Just that snail on the Megaman path is a minor level design change, but it can mean a difference of plenty of lives in a playthrough of the level. The game has been tweaked plenty of times because some challenges were too hard, and it will keep being tweaked. I remember, for example, one of the gravity switches on ERZ2 that after being used, made you fall to your death. I lost plenty of lives until I learnt I had to press forward while switching gravity. Now the path has a trail of rings, and it´s obvious when you reach there that you should press forward. Spot this unfair places and if they are really unfair, they will be surely fixed somehow.


BTW, if you have played through ERZ1 and ERZ2 as Sonic you shouldn´t say you are a noob. Those zones are hard, specially as Sonic, and I´m sure many mainstream gamers wouldn´t advance as far as you. In fact, I haven´t beaten ERZ in 2.1 as Sonic yet, as I´m completing emblems with Knuckles first and I will beat the game with Tails after so I only have the hard one for the final playthrough. I´ve beaten ERZ plenty of times before, but I know I will have trouble with Sonic. But that´s part of the fun. If it weren´t, the game would have been finished by now for a 4 years wait.


That´s my opinion though, and I don´t see videogames as something everybody should be able to complete without enough practice, which is clearly not what most people seem to think on these days.
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We both agree that the game should increase in difficulty as the game goes on. But we don't agree about what kind of difficulty is acceptable or not.

I am very sorry, I can't agree with you on this :
"If it´s your first playthrough, you should lose at the zone."
"First playthrough" should mean what exactly ? 1 live ? 10 lives ? 99 lives + continues ? 1 day ? 1 month maybe ? What is this first playthrough ? Why should I lose there ? I mean game designing wise ?

No game should ever teach you by making you lose on purpose... If that's the kind of difficulty you're talking about, maybe you like playing Ghost and Goblins. This game is not only dreadfully hard, but its gameplay near the end is bullshit. You have to play one specific way, using one specific weapon just so you can end the damn game. Oh ! And you won't ever know it before losing unless you use a guide. The game will just troll you.

I don't like it when people think challenge = cheap, instant death happy festival, every damn time, until you have just somehow become a master, and then, you are actually allowed to enjoy the game's "challenge". This is not "good" hard (challenge) but "bad" hard (fake difficulty).
There is losing because you weren't good, and losing because the game is sh**ing on you. If making player get game over perpetually until they are just pro players is good design I applaud you.
Game over is there to punish a player for playing badly. It is not integral to the design of the gameplay itself, except as a form a punishment and a limitation. If then, the player use his loss for motivating himself, that's on him, not because of the game.

At this point I was not even talking about SRB2 yet, I just responded to your view of gaming.



I know many games today are accused of being shamefully easy and bread and butter. I agree with you on this. But I don't care about those games.
In one post I cited Super Mario World. This game has some really hard level but also is built around it so it doesn't just stop new players indefinitely. The game itself is non linear, and has tone of secrets and unlockables. With the Star Road you can bypass most of the stuff if you want to, and come back latter to enjoy your fun. Also, if you try very hard enough, you can find, play and beat the secret unlockable stuff in the Special stages which are hidden in the Star road.

SRB2 is not like SMW. SRB2 follows the pattern of a classic Sonic game. SRB2 is a linear game with tones of secrets and unlockables. And a last zone which disrupts totally the skill ceiling and the game flow. You have to beat this zone to finish the main game, but you just cannot beat it. You cannot. You have to learn it first, very carefully. How do you learn it ? BY DYING. Die. Die. Die, until you just know how to breaze through the zone because you were beaten to the pulp so hard and so often, you begin to walk/run string like a pro.

ERZ doesn't care about your mastery and adaptation skills (AKA good challenge) if your are not very already above average from the get go.
ERZ just use your pure memorization of traps and instant death every corner (fake difficulty).
Learn by dying. Then you can play it eyes closed, like a boss. That's quite shitty if you ask me.

But wait ! Aren't many other levels just like this ?
Not really. Arid Canyon zone makes it clear where and how you should handle the danger very before hand, and doesn't push it to stellar level. It uses them reasonably (the crushing and the pits), and even if you may be taken by surprise by an instant trap at 1 spot or 2, you are never caught in it again, because they are all that much more manageable. As for the final rails section, it is are hard, but has almost no disruption (just kill the first two red flying badniks) and if you fail, you have still margin for error (platforming was added in 2.1).
Red Canyon eats you ring, that's it. Collect some more.

The difference is is the sheer quantity and concentration of instant death in one spot. One centimeter wrong and you die. That's harsh.
Reverse gravity with pits. Crushing. Conveyor belts. Yellow snails shooting you.
Now combine 2 to 3 of the above together with bottomless pits before, during, and after rooms. Sure it is possible to complete it. And it is also very bad and long.
Oh and a race to the finish, when you never had to before, above reverse gravity, conveyor belts and bottomless pit festival ? Sure, let's go drink some tea some day.

The only one to blame here is the disruption of skill level between the elit players, mostly found here in this community, especially the dev team, and the playerbase, which includes average and lesser but motivated folks. I may complete it today or tomorrow who knows ? I will still say ERZ is BS, but it is just exactly that. I should not be the one pointing it. The developers should have known about it all along. SRB2 is a Sonic game, not some Kaizo SMW bad hack.

I don't even want the ERZ changed if it just becomes an extra. But it probably will not, so, at the very least make it so we can save between acts, remove snails next to instant death of any kind (even where platforms are NOT disapearring), make the Metal Sonic Race much more manageable, even if I think I will beat it someday (maybe even soon), it is shit in term of difficulty balance.
I hear you, who think I am just a sucker, whereas you are awesome because it gave you no problem. I say : Just look at it, how and when it was implemented in the game, and imagine some new SRB2 player sweating his way through the limiting Act 2, and then facing that. Not cool to be him, even if the concept of the race is very epic, his game over screen is not, neither is his save blocked at Act 1.
I actually congratulate any newbie actually reaching ERZ Act 3. *clap clap clap*
But there ends your run for today. In most cases you are just fated to lose completly before even trying. Is that the true philosophy of SRB2 ? I am asking for real.


I will end by saying that the final levels Sonic 1, 2, 3&K never had bottomless pits combined with so many threats and were still challenging. If you managed to take an upper route, you were not forced into them.
_ Scrap Brain (Sonic 1) had some sometimes, crusher other times, converyor belts other times again. It also had a harder water section without instant death, and a secret shortcut.
_ Air Fortress (Sonic 2) ONLY had bottomless pit as a real threat.
_ Death egg (Sonic & K) didn't even really need them.
It is all about moderation and measure.

You want your game balanced, not soul crushing. If you force your players into a level as hard ERZ during the main game, you will have to tone it down, or remove it. Even the fact that is is a fangame and is in 3D doesn't save it from those critics. If anything, the 3D gameplay where you have to control so many movements make those points even more important and the critics even more virulent.





@ To Rex the Kitsune :
Please stop arguing. I understand your complaints but I didn't come to start a flame war. Thanks in advance.
 
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After reading this ENTIRE discussion, I would say ERZ is pretty difficult for new players, not so much myself. The key to beating it would probably be to take it slow, and use common sense throughout the entire level, rather than rush through it, and once its beaten, practice in that level and learn its secrets.
As for Rex, just a question, could you show us a video of your own play through of ERZ? Even if you cant beat it, if you showed us how you play, maybe we may understand more, or atleast learn where the "problem" is coming from.
 
Sonoob said:
Okay, thanks you as well.
But please don't argue. I am trying to discuss game design in just a Zone of a fangame. No drama.

I hope devs actually read my last post, instead of just walking away.
-___-
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At this point I don't think they care.
They're probably willing to say "suck it up and learn how to play"
 
Hmm... why i agree that ERZ was SOMEWHAT needlessly hard, its been toned down (well, I found arid canyon nearly impossible in 2.X.X due to that last part... at least with sonic) but the fact that you complain is your problem because IF IT WASN'T HARD, WHAT FUN WOULD IT BE? Get better at the game- there's no achievement in beating it if its easy. ALSO, I laugh at your compairing the final zone to the first one. Go play something easier like every official sonic game out there if you cant play this.
Im hoping that they'll add a zone AFTER ERZ that's harder than it is- not because ERZ is easy, but playing that level would be the needless hardness that everyone wants... XD
 
Phil the hegi said:
Hmm... why i agree that ERZ was SOMEWHAT needlessly hard, its been toned down (well, I found arid canyon nearly impossible in 2.X.X due to that last part... at least with sonic) but the fact that you complain is your problem because IF IT WASN'T HARD, WHAT FUN WOULD IT BE? Get better at the game- there's no achievement in beating it if its easy. ALSO, I laugh at your compairing the final zone to the first one. Go play something easier like every official sonic game out there if you cant play this.
Im hoping that they'll add a zone AFTER ERZ that's harder than it is- not because ERZ is easy, but playing that level would be the needless hardness that everyone wants... XD
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I respect your opinion, no matter how rude it may be.
 
Sonoob said:
We both agree that the game should increase in difficulty as the game goes on. But we don't agree about what kind of difficulty is acceptable or not.

I am very sorry, I can't agree with you on this :
"If it´s your first playthrough, you should lose at the zone."
"First playthrough" should mean what exactly ? 1 live ? 10 lives ? 99 lives + continues ? 1 day ? 1 month maybe ? What is this first playthrough ? Why should I lose there ? I mean game designing wise ?

No game should ever teach you by making you lose on purpose... If that's the kind of difficulty you're talking about, maybe you like playing Ghost and Goblins. This game is not only dreadfully hard, but its gameplay near the end is bullshit. You have to play one specific way, using one specific weapon just so you can end the damn game. Oh ! And you won't ever know it before losing unless you use a guide. The game will just troll you.

I don't like it when people think challenge = cheap, instant death happy festival, everytime damn time, until you have just somehow become a master, and then, you are actually allowed to enjoy the game's "challenge". This is not "good" hard (challenge) but "bad" hard (fake difficulty).
There is losing because you weren't good, and losing because the game is sh**ing on you. If making player get game over perpetually until they are just pro players is good design I applaud you.
Game over is there to punish a player for playing badly. It is not integral to the design of the gameplay itself, except as a form a punishment and a limitation. If then, the player use his loss for motivating himself, that's on him, not because of the game.

At this point I was not even talking about SRB2 yet, I just responded to your view of gaming.



I know many games today are accused of being shamefully easy and bread and butter. I agree with you on this. But I don't care about those games.
In one post I cited Super Mario World. This game has some really hard level but also is built around it so it doesn't just stop new players indefinitely. The game itslef is non linear, and has tone of secrets and unlockables. With the Star Road you can bypass most of the stuff if you want to, and come back latter to enjoy your fun. Also, if you try very hard enough, you can find, play and beat the secret unlockable stuff in the Special stages wich are hidden in the Star road.

SRB2 is not like SMW. SRB2 follows the pattern of a classic Sonic game. SRB2 is a linear game with tones of secrets and unlockables. And a last zone which disrupts totally the skill ceiling and the game flow. You have to beat this zone to finish the main game, but you just cannot beat it. You cannot. You have to learn it first, very carefully. How do you learn it ? BY DYING. Die. Die. Die, until you just know how to breaze through the zone because you were beaten to the pulp so hard and so often, you begin to walk/run string like a pro.

ERZ doesn't care about your mastery and adaptation skills (AKA good challenge) if your are not very already above average from the get go.
ERZ just use your pure memorization of traps and instant death every corner (fake difficulty).
Learn by dying. Then you can play it eyes closed, like a boss. That's quite shitty if you ask me.

But wait ! Aren't many other levels just like this ?
Not really. Arid Canyon zone makes it clear where and how you should handle the danger very before hand, and doesn't push it to stellar level. It uses them reasonably (the crushing and the pits), and even if you may be taken by surprise by an instant trap at 1 spot or 2, you are never caught in it again, because the are all that much more manageable. As for the final rails section, it is are hard, but has almost no disruption (just kill the first two red flying badniks) and if you fail, you have still margin for error (platforming was added in 2.1).
Red Canyon eats you ring, that's it. Collect some more.

The difference is is the sheer quatity and concentration of instant death in one spot. One centimeter wrong and you die. That's harsh.
Reverse gravity with pits. Crushing. Conveyor belts. Yellow snails shooting you.
Now combine 2 to 3 of the above together with bottomless pits before, during, and after rooms. Sure it is possible to complete it. And it is also very bad and long.
Oh and a race to the finish, when you never had to before, above reverse gravity, conveyor belts and bottomless pit festival ? Sure, let's go drink some tea some day.

The only one to blame here is the disruption of skill level between the elit players, mostly found here in this community, especially the dev team, and the playerbase, which includes average and lesser but motivated folks. I may complete it today or tomorrow who knows ? I will still say ERZ is BS, but it is just exactly that. I should not be the one pointing it. The developers should have known about it all along. SRB2 is a Sonic game, not some Kaizo SMW bad hack.

I don't even want the ERZ changed if it just becomes an extra. But it probably will not, so, at the very least make it so we can save between acts, remove snails next to instant death of any kind (even where platforms are NOT disapearring), make the Metal Sonic Race much more manageable, even if I think I will beat it someday (maybe even soon), it is shit in term of difficulty balance.
I hear you, who think I am just a sucker, whereas you are awesome because it gave you no problem. I say : Just look at it, how and when it was implemented in the game, and imagine some new SRB2 player sweating his way through the limiting Act 2, and then facing that without having heard. Not cool to be him, even if the concept of the race is very epic, his game over screen is not, neither is his save blocked at Act 1.
I actually congratulate any newbie actually reaching ERZ Act 3. *clap clap clap*
But there ends your run for today. In most cases you are just fated to lose completly before even trying. Is that the true philosophy of SRB2 ? I am asking for real.


I will end by saying that the final levels Sonic 1, 2, 3&K never had bottomless pits combined with so many threats and were still challenging. If you managed to take an upper route, you were not forced into them.
_ Scrap Brain (Sonic 1) had some sometimes, crusher other times, converyor belts other times again. It also had a harder watter section without instant death, and a secret shortcut.
_ Air Fortress (Sonic 2) ONLY had bottomless pit as a real threat.
_ Death egg (Sonic & K) didn't even really need them.
It is all about moderation and measure.

You want your game balanced, not soul crushing. If you force your players into a level as hard ERZ during the main game, you will have to tone it down, or remove it. Even the fact that is is a fangame and is in 3D doesn't save it from those critics. If anything, the 3D gameplay where you have to control so many movements make those points even more important and the critics even more virulent.





@ To Rex the Kitsune :
Please stop arguing. I understand your complaints but I didn't come to start a flame war. Thanks in advance.
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Nevermind, the way you say it, what i said may be somewhat wrong, Having to die to learn isn't that good of a mechanic, but yeah...
 
Rex, I suggest you stop replying to every different opinion from yours (and calling all of them as rude) and actually read this.

CreativeMind said:
After reading this ENTIRE discussion, I would say ERZ is pretty difficult for new players, not so much myself. The key to beating it would probably be to take it slow, and use common sense throughout the entire level, rather than rush through it, and once its beaten, practice in that level and learn its secrets.
As for Rex, just a question, could you show us a video of your own play through of ERZ? Even if you cant beat it, if you showed us how you play, maybe we may understand more, or atleast learn where the "problem" is coming from.
Click to expand...
 
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