Suggestions

No no no I don't think the levels need to be changed. It's only additive that I'm proposing. Adding an additional accessibility option for new players. As it is now, it is understood that vanilla Sonic solo is hardest. Tails mitigates that, but at a cost, because you're room skipping, and likely to get lost.

Sonic having recovery options (homing/double jump/wallkick) makes levels significantly easier than having one jump, and the Thokk.

Imagine this play style to be optional as Sonic

jump x2 --> homing attack or double jump
jump + dash --> thokk
dash --> dash or roll

--When you have a shield, jump + dash is the shield power instead of thokk.
--When you have 7 emeralds and 50 rings, jump + dash is how you activate.
--And I'd include the walljump, too.

Ultimately my reasoning is that Sonic should have the option to be more accessible, because he is the most fun to play, either way.

I don't really care for Boost, and I like light-speed dash and downward stomp okay but not enough to advocate for incorporating C1 and C2.

By just giving Sonic double jump and homing, you are giving the player more ability to adjust in mid-air, which helps mitigate the difficulty by A LOT.

It makes sense for the layout too, because Thokk is really "spin dash in midair."

It's true the game was not made with this in mind. But it works beautifully. And it should be incorporated to be offered as an option for new players.

And it doesn't impact anybody who enjoys Vanilla Sonic as it is. Once a player has played with the training wheels of homing attack, then they will enjoy playing with only the Thokk. But you START with easy, and then work your way up to HARD... and then once you can do it, it's very satisfying and rewarding. You don't want to start with hard and make your way down to easy.

Based just on my personal play, having the Modern training wheels has made my jumping as vanilla Sonic better simply because I have had more success experimenting with the physics in the game. So I don't think it really spoils any enjoyment, only encourages more play-throughs as harder characters like Amy.

Also, on the other hand, it's not a terrible thing if Sonic is the most fun character! Or even if he's the easiest! Makes it more fun for the additional characters to be the hard mode.

If Modern Sonic was implemented as his own character, the levels would have to be adjusted to acknowledge him unless he was literally the last thing you unlock or else it wouldn't feel fair that he doesn't get his own pathways while everyone else does, and that in fact he has the most freedom to go whichever way he wants out of everyone.

If his moveset was applied to Classic Sonic as an option, it would beg the question of why Classic Sonic has an optional alternative moveset and not anyone else.

On the topic of making Sonic more accessible however, you could have Amy be the "Hard mode" character in Sonic's place and tweak Sonic's moveset a bit to be more beginner friendly.

Something I have heard even before you mentioned it is giving Sonic the double jump. What might actually work well, though it would take time getting used to, is if while you are midair during a jump you have the option to do one of two things: Pressing spin during a jump lets you jump a second time, though this gets replaced by whatever shield ability you pick up until you lose the shield. Pressing jump while you are midair during a jump allows you to thok. When Sonic turns super, he gains the ability to combine these actions once per jump in whichever order he pleases, at the cost of losing the hover. This would overall be a nerf to Super Sonic, but would make him more satisfying to pull off skilled maneuverings with.

This would make Sonic more beginner friendly and have the added bonus of making Metal Sonic feel less like a Super Sonic clone since the hover would now be exclusive to him.

This would also leave the ability to have Modern Sonic proper as an unlockable for 100%, while still allowing Classic Sonic to fill the role of being more beginner friendly.
 
Something I have heard even before you mentioned it is giving Sonic the double jump. What might actually work well, though it would take time getting used to, is if while you are midair during a jump you have the option to do one of two things: Pressing spin during a jump lets you jump a second time, though this gets replaced by whatever shield ability you pick up until you lose the shield. Pressing jump while you are midair during a jump allows you to thok.

I agree it would be nice to have jump + spin. And what you're saying makes sense. It keeps jump+jump as thok, and adds a double jump but not a homing attack to jump+spin.

But I think what you're suggesting is more complicated and counter intuitive. Pressing dash mid-air should result in a dash in the air... a Thok.

Jump+spin -> thok
Jump+jump -> homing / double jump

At the core of what I'm suggesting is homing & thok would be ideal together. I don't think they HAVE to be competing movesets, necessarily, and currently there isn't a mod that features both together like that. (Neo Sonic combines homing/thok on the same button).

I read a post from Mystic about consciously not wanting to incorporate homing for game feel and as a rejection of what SEGA has done with the franchise. I think that is absolutely fair. But I think the homing feels good enough from the Modern mod, without changing anything in the existing level design (not adding new enemy placements or anything), that it is worth considering from the perspective of making Sonic more accessible as a character.

Toggling "homing on" is like adding auto-assist. Training wheels.

Just imo
 
See but I think Modern actually makes more sense for beginners than veterans. By the time you've collected enough emblems to unlock him, he's kind of pointless. The fun in his over-powered-ness is best suited for Easy mode.

I agree that record attack is a problem, but I think an easier solution is just that Modern isn't allowed to do record attack (or can be unlocked), or they don't "count." I think the audience that you're targeting with Modern's inclusion isn't the same as veteran players who speedrun. Then again, if Super Sonic can be used in record attack, I don't see why it'd be a problem for Modern to be able to record attack. In fact one of the reasons I'd like for Modern to be included in the base game is so he can use the bonus stages and level select.

I understand the thought process behind why this game wasn't built for Modern, but a funny thing happened in the 20 years of this game's progression -- the Modern moveset actually makes *more* sense for this game, than any official game that uses Modern, and arguably more than vanilla Sonic.

Ultimately I don't think there's a benefit from locking him away. I think you'd want to keep the barrier of entry as low as possible to SRB2, you know? New/young/beginner players can pick up Modern Sonic immediately and cheese through levels and feel cool. And as they gain experience, they play the classic/vanilla/hard Sonic, as it was intended, for a more challenging and perhaps more rewarding experience.

It's a fortunate, not unfortunate, coincidence that Modern's moveset happens to fit so well in a game not specifically designed for him.

As it happens, I think SRB2 makes a far stronger case than Generations or Forces or any other project that's attempted to have both classic and modern feel like they can both co-exist. SRB2 makes a stronger case for variety of playstyles in a 3D Sonic than any other too, but I guess that's maybe not the highest bar to clear. Nonetheless it exceeds it!

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imo the double jump is crucial to what makes the Modern mod work so well in the SRB2 levels. Personally I wouldn't change a thing (other than the HUD)!

My opinion, SRB2 being a PC game means it is fairly easy to mod, and it's fairly easy nowadays to add as many custom characters as you want to the base set. There are lots of Sonics to choose from including the Werehog, and having him as a mod means that mappers don't have the added difficulty of taking ever more powerful characters into account unless they ask players to not use them for their levels.

There's also the fact that for a character with Modern Sonic's speed and power to really work well (ie. not completing a level within a minute or so), the developers would have to upgrade the maximum possible size for a level from 64K (32K from the origin) to 128K or even 256K. I'm not sure how easy it would be able to do that, even though I might've read the Zone Builder grid is already larger than what was possible in the original Doom.
 
Those two are missing the obvious, and that's that modern Sonic goes against every bit of our design. We're not adding modern Sonic for a huge number of reasons, but the primary one is that this isn't a game where there are multiple Sonics. There's just Sonic. If you're looking for a different style of Sonic gameplay, that's exactly what mods are perfect for. Give some different ones a shot and hopefully you find one that goes well with your taste.

However, as I'm sure you're aware, Sonic's gameplay right now is problematic for newbies. We are quite aware and are still discussing methods to handle that. We already have assist features like playing as Tails that dramatically help newbies play the game, but it's problematic that the base three's difficulty is so skewed. We're not going to just throw in something that goes against everything the game stands for just to pretend to fix it, though.

Also, we are not and never will add a significant reward for collecting all the emblems. For a detailed reason why, here's a post so old 4th gen was the most recent Pokemon: https://mb.srb2.org/showpost.php?p=684351&postcount=226
 
Also, we are not and never will add a significant reward for collecting all the emblems. For a detailed reason why, here's a post so old 4th gen was the most recent Pokemon: https://mb.srb2.org/showpost.php?p=684351&postcount=226

This reasoning really just doesn't seem to hold up for me. First of all, Pokemon has generally required you to either spend an unrealistic amount of time and money to get 100% completion on your own, or to have friends who can help you reach completion in exchange for you helping them. SRB2 is nothing of the sort.

Second of all, I wouldn't really regard SA2's Green Hill unlock to be as difficult to unlock as you make it sound (Though Metal Harbor and Mad Space can go die in a fire) so much as it's just time consuming and tedious. In general, I would consider that specific unlock to be bad game design, because the level isn't even that great, and certainly not worth the time and effort it takes to unlock it.

The reason why a player would go for 100% in a platformer is because they want to feel rewarded. If you get nothing special for getting to 100%, then there's no point in even bothering. Rather than making it this super hard task that you don't expect most players to be able to do and then using this as a reason to not reward players for doing it aside from the ability to boast that they did, why not just make it a fun and fair challenge that actually feels worth it to complete, with a reward that acts as the cherry on top?
 
The reason why a player would go for 100% in a platformer is because they want to feel rewarded. If you get nothing special for getting to 100%, then there's no point in even bothering. Rather than making it this super hard task that you don't expect most players to be able to do and then using this as a reason to not reward players for doing it aside from the ability to boast that they did, why not just make it a fun and fair challenge that actually feels worth it to complete, with a reward that acts as the cherry on top?
This is objectively incorrect. People go for 100% in video games for a diverse number of reasons. Maybe for you, the reason to go for it is the reward the game provides you for doing so. That's fine. If you don't think it's worth the effort, don't do it. The goal is that we want you to play SRB2 the way you think is fun. This has absolutely nothing to do with the actual difficulty level of 100%ing the game, but with the diversity of content that the game provides.

Maybe someone just doesn't like NiGHTS and doesn't wanna go for A ranks. Even if we changed the requirements to be easier, that wouldn't change the fact that some players don't enjoy it and the difficulty level has nothing to do with that. By providing a significant reward we'd basically be telling players to do things they may not enjoy for the reward at the end. I absolutely fucking hated the Chao minigame in SA2 and yet stupid-ass me was suckered into doing it for the reward. I spent a good 15 hours of my life I will never get back grinding stats for a minigame I gave zero shits about because the designers put something behind that I wanted to see.

I have 100%ed tons of games that provide a token or absolutely no reward for 100% because I wanted to experience all the content in the game because I was having fun. We hope that SRB2 is fun enough that many players out there feel interested in getting all the emblems, but obviously different people have different interests in gaming, and we do not believe that players should be encouraged to grind content they do not like or cheat in order to experience SRB2 in full.
 
This is objectively incorrect. People go for 100% in video games for a diverse number of reasons. Maybe for you, the reason to go for it is the reward the game provides you for doing so. That's fine. If you don't think it's worth the effort, don't do it. The goal is that we want you to play SRB2 the way you think is fun.

...we do not believe that players should be encouraged to grind content they do not like or cheat in order to experience SRB2 in full.

This would be a great mindset to have, if you were actually following it. As it is though, collecting enough emblems to unlock content is already a grind. Just unlocking all the extra levels and the universal level select is rather grind heavy. As such, players who aren't already skilled at finding emblems in the levels and getting the emblems in NiGHTS mode and Record Attack will either have to grind content they do not like or cheat to experience SRB2 in full.

Compare people's reactions to collecting all the Red Star Rings in Sonic Colors Wii as opposed to Sonic 4 Episode II. Collecting these is rather tedious and time consuming in both games, but in just about every review I have seen people are far more friendly towards the grind in Sonic Colors than they are in S4EII, despite Colors having far more of them. The reason is because Colors actually gives the player a cool bonus reward for putting in the effort, while S4EII gives you effectively nothing, unless you are really into trophies/achievements.

Players generally just don't feel incentive to go after bonus collectibles that don't do anything. As soon as you have all the unlockables, there's no longer any point in continuing from there. That's not just me, that's everyone in my social circle and a vast majority of people leaving game reviews. Sure, people can have other reasons to go after collectibles, and there's no shame in that.

To go so far as to call me "Objectively wrong" is laughable at best. There's always the chance I might be "Subjectively wrong", but to go so far as to make it "Objectively" is ridiculous, especially when you go on immediately after to acknowledge that my viewpoint on the matter is one of multiple valid viewpoints.

When the entire point of a game is to just collect things, such as in Pokemon, players are usually more willing to collect for the sake of collecting. When you are playing a "Get to the end of the level" type platformer such as Sonic, players are generally not going to want to burden themselves any further than they are rewarded for doing so.

Perhaps it would be less of a problem if it was made more immediately clear to the player that while they can collect all the emblems, this isn't the point. That rather, there's more emblems than you actually need to get the final unlockable so that you can focus your efforts on the gameplay modes you are most comfortable in to unlock everything, and then have the final unlock be regarded as "100%", even though there's still more emblems to collect. Or to word it differently, To have the emblem requirement for the final unlock to be the listed total emblem amount, but still have the other emblems available for those who want to go after them. For example, you could collect 200 out of, say, 150 emblems.

This way, the final unlock would feel like a 100% completion bonus and the rest of the emblems would properly feel like bragging rights, as opposed to it feeling like a tier system where eventually you just stop getting rewarded.
 
Those two are missing the obvious, and that's that modern Sonic goes against every bit of our design. We're not adding modern Sonic for a huge number of reasons, but the primary one is that this isn't a game where there are multiple Sonics. There's just Sonic. If you're looking for a different style of Sonic gameplay, that's exactly what mods are perfect for. Give some different ones a shot and hopefully you find one that goes well with your taste.

However, as I'm sure you're aware, Sonic's gameplay right now is problematic for newbies. We are quite aware and are still discussing methods to handle that. We already have assist features like playing as Tails that dramatically help newbies play the game, but it's problematic that the base three's difficulty is so skewed. We're not going to just throw in something that goes against everything the game stands for just to pretend to fix it, though.

I agree there is only one Sonic.

I think adding an optional homing attack will dramatically make the character more accessible for newbies.

I understand the reservation about incorporating a homing attack but I think it's the simplest and easiest way to make the character more accessible.

I think you can see it anytime you see a newbie interact with SRB2 (including the Woolie video). If they first learned the game with homing attack ON, and then as they progressed turned it OFF, you'd see more players experiencing the game you want them to.

Playing "Sonic & Tails" helps mitigate Sonic's difficulty but it adds the complication of getting lost. "Homing assist" mitigates the difficulty but keeps the player on course.
 
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I agree there is only one Sonic.

I think adding an optional homing attack will dramatically make the character more accessible for newbies.

I understand the reservation about incorporating a homing attack but I think it's the simplest and easiest way to make the character more accessible.

I think you can see it anytime you see a newbie interact with SRB2 (including the Woolie video). If they first learned the game with homing attack ON, and then as they progressed turned it OFF, you'd see more players experiencing the game you want them to.

The problem with the homing attack is that it disincentives players from learning to make proper use of momentum. If you screw up with your momentum, you can just use a homing attack and hit the thing you were trying to hit anyway. This does make things easier for new players, but not in a way that helps them to learn the game mechanics. Most players would probably choose not to turn the homing attack off ever, because it would seem at first to be infinitely more useful than the thok.

It's like if you were to put a toggle in to give Tails infinite flight. The natural progression in difficulty would be to toggle it off so that Tails can grow tired again, but most players would never feel incentive to do so because it would just feel like an unnecessary handicap given their options.

Restricting something like the homing attack behind the attraction shield is probably the best way to go about it. That way any of the characters can make use of it, and it works in a way that fits better within the momentum based classic gameplay style they are shooting for.

Giving Sonic a secondary ability on spin while midair (not the homing attack) would probably be better for making him more accessible. Something like a double jump, or the drop dash.
 
This discussion showcases one of SRB2's biggest hurdles to overcome: the titular character--who is the main character of the entire franchise the game is a fangame of--is the HARDEST character by far (well okay maybe Fang is harder but he's an unlockable and intentionally weird) and there's really nothing the devteam can do about it. New players are just going to automatically pick Sonic because why wouldn't you pick Sonic? I don't envy the devteam.
 
This discussion showcases one of SRB2's biggest hurdles to overcome: the titular character--who is the main character of the entire franchise the game is a fangame of--is the HARDEST character by far (well okay maybe Fang is harder but he's an unlockable and intentionally weird) and there's really nothing the devteam can do about it. New players are just going to automatically pick Sonic because why wouldn't you pick Sonic? I don't envy the devteam.

I would say Amy is by far the hardest. Her attacks are strictly timing based, she can't spin jump, use the spin attack, or spindash, and her most useful abilities (destroying spikes and launching further off springs) are at best situational. Fang is also more difficult than Sonic, but nowhere near as much so as Amy.

Overall if I were to rank it, each character as they are now would be:
Tails - Easy
Knuckles - Medium
Metal - Advanced
Sonic - Hard
Fang - Harder
Amy - Pro

I still feel like the best way to go about it would be to just give Sonic a double jump on spin while jumping so that he could control himself in midair a bit better and gain some extra height. All the other characters have ways of gaining height (at least compared to the ground) aside from Sonic.

Allowing him to use both actions once per jump in Super form would also help to make Sonic a skill based character to use that still feels really satisfying while setting him apart from Metal even further.
 
Why not make a separate thread discussing all of this Modern Sonic shenanigan? While I'm personally against it, it seems to've generated quite a lot of buzz.

I posted this on the badnik discussion thread, but I think putting suggestions on the suggestions chart is a smarter move.

Here are some things I'd change to make the badniks feel a bit more lively:

1. Revamping the Crawla
He's fine the way he is right now, but a small change in behavior could benefit the fella a lot. Seeing those circular pillars at the opening area of GFZ1 gave me the idea for Things called Crawla Tracks/Roads: they force a crawla (or a group of them) to crawl along those looping tracks as long as a player isn't around. Basically their movement pattern if they're not bothered. When a player comes close, all crawlas on a track will be alerted at once to enter their active phase simultaneously.
Once they spot a player (a small visual cue could be added alongside this, like his antenna lifting a bit while he faces toward the player before giving chase?), they should leave the tracks and move toward him at a >faster< rate than what they do now (since the player actually knows they're coming!), and keep the chase until they're defeated. It obviously shouldn't be Lance-a-bot fast, but don't make it a slow chase. There's actual action happening with Crawlas now!
To accompany this, maybe smoke could come out of their rear to show that they're actively chasing you until they get beaten down?
The Crawla tracks should be gray, maybe a bit darker than the Crawla's feet thingies, and placed a bit more strategically around the map instead of sporradically like they are now. A cool thing I thought of was making an infinity-shaped track with three Crawlas under the heart emblem area in GFZ1.
Of course, that comes with its downsides - like the first corridor in GFZ2 either being full of these or being void of enemies, but that just goes to show how that first area is so obnoxiously filled with Crawlas. Maybe some decoration and adding the butterfly enemies could help liven it up a bit?

2. Visual effects on the Buzz
Something super simple to do, actually. The buzzing noise is okay, but make their chasing a bit different! They're too boring the way they currently are. Make their acceleration rate work similarly to the BASH, where they actually take some time to enter full speed. Maybe the buzzing's pitch and speed could also increase based on their speed? I'd also kill for a movement trail similar to the Manta Ray's trail in Super Mario 64, which could also have their own sound effects.

3. Red variants
Probably the single coolest pattern for badniks. If they're red, they're more dangerous. The spincushion from ERZ is literally born from this relationship between the color red and an improvement. When he's red, he's more dangerous! Right now, the differences between normal and red badniks are just "red's faster", but it could be more than that!
-Crawla:
I'm absolutely in favor of giving Red Crawla a projectile. Giving players projectiles to avoid would be super neat and prepare them for GFZ3! Alongside being faster, the Red Crawla would, instead of bumping into you, stop after getting within a certain radius and start firing bullets from its cannon mouth. Thinking about it, Crawlas are the perfect badniks for firing bullets, they have a cannon mouth!
-Buzz: Instead of chasing you at a set speed, make the Red Buzz skyrocket toward you really fast, in a similar vein to Tails's Buzz Sentry in Cobalt's Battlemod! A nice change of pace for a badnik that isn't quite used to it's fullest potential. And, of course, a different visual effect/trail to show that it's different.
-Robo-Hood: Getting into fanmade territory, have red robohoods fire a set of three arrows! I've seen some archers do this in other games, it's pretty cool.
-SDURF: Not really more dangerous but I but the SDURF at the end to show that a red variant is really just a change of pace; have this version travel alongside a set arc, like some people on this thread already asked for. It's a perfect excuse to showcase red enemies' difference from regular ones, especially since that'd mean all GFZ badniks would have a red counterpart.

4. Sprites
Oh, sprites. Oh, Jet Jaw from 2.0 that doesn't give me a rest.
Update the sprites on the badniks that need it. Seriously, putting a Jet Jaw and a Crushstacean together makes them feel like they're from different dimensions yet they're from the same zone.
 
Players generally just don't feel incentive to go after bonus collectibles that don't do anything. As soon as you have all the unlockables, there's no longer any point in continuing from there. That's not just me, that's everyone in my social circle and a vast majority of people leaving game reviews. Sure, people can have other reasons to go after collectibles, and there's no shame in that.

To go so far as to call me "Objectively wrong" is laughable at best. There's always the chance I might be "Subjectively wrong", but to go so far as to make it "Objectively" is ridiculous, especially when you go on immediately after to acknowledge that my viewpoint on the matter is one of multiple valid viewpoints.
You say "players" with no qualifier here and in the previous post. I am a player of video games. I do not consider the reward important in whether or not I 100% a game. I am not the only one. Therefore "players" isn't what you mean, and that's why you're wrong. You could potentially argue "my friends and I", "most players" if you had statistics to back that up, or "some players" regardless. You cannot argue "players" with the implication of "all", because that's factually incorrect. You are objectively wrong on that one, because I can provide a simple counter-example.

Also, as someone who hangs out with different people than you, I can tell you that I have the exact opposite experience. My friends and I 100% games because we want to, not because the game told us to for some promise of reward. I have long been aware that many people are disappointed that we don't provide a significant reward for 100% completion, but I'm also aware that way more people would be frustrated if we did and they didn't have the skill level and time necessary to see it.

This would be a great mindset to have, if you were actually following it. As it is though, collecting enough emblems to unlock content is already a grind. Just unlocking all the extra levels and the universal level select is rather grind heavy. As such, players who aren't already skilled at finding emblems in the levels and getting the emblems in NiGHTS mode and Record Attack will either have to grind content they do not like or cheat to experience SRB2 in full.
This way, the final unlock would feel like a 100% completion bonus and the rest of the emblems would properly feel like bragging rights, as opposed to it feeling like a tier system where eventually you just stop getting rewarded.
We do provide a final unlock, Pandora's Box. It is a mostly token reward because we know that getting all the emblems is not something most players are likely to do, as explained in the post I linked previously.

You might notice that there are a lot of challenging things in SRB2. We have chosen an unlockable structure that tries to reward players with more of what they've been doing wherever possible. Did you like Haunted Heights and Aerial Garden enough to complete them? Here's another really hard stage. Did you get all A ranks in the special stages? Here's a really hard stage to put those skills you've earned through the practice necessary to accomplish that to the test.

The intent with this system is to reward players with more of what they already enjoy and also prevent players from encountering content that they don't have the skill level to possibly complete. Black Hole is great content that I'm super happy exists, but it is so difficult that we want some method of gating it off from players that aren't ready for it yet. Sure, we could just let players go at it from the start, but most players wouldn't have a good experience doing so. The process to unlock it is somewhat grindy, as stated, but that grind exists for an actual reason: to give the player the practice necessary that they'll have a chance to have fun in the unlock to begin with.

Emblems, however, are rewarded from almost everything we encourage you to do in the game. Therefore, it's not like we can go "you like playing the game, so this unlock would be fun for you" except for the emblem hints and radar, which are directly related to the process of finding emblems to begin with. Thus, it's where the "miscellaneous" unlocks ended up, for better or worse. The requirements were very much intentionally set up so that the player only needs to collect half of the emblems to see all of the relevant unlockables, and therefore the player will likely know whether or not the idea of getting the rest of them for self-satisfaction sounds worth it or not.

The key words here, by the way, are "self-satisfaction". At the end of the day unlockables and acknowledgement aren't, and never should be the point. The point should always be having fun playing a video game, and the positive feeling you get when you achieve something you've been struggling with for a while. That's what everything related to 100% completion in SRB2 aims to accomplish.
 
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I will note that there have been some internal discussion on additional rewards for 100%ing the game, but they would be largely badge-of-honor rewards and distinctly not additional content.
 
I would say Amy is by far the hardest. Her attacks are strictly timing based, she can't spin jump, use the spin attack, or spindash, and her most useful abilities (destroying spikes and launching further off springs) are at best situational. Fang is also more difficult than Sonic, but nowhere near as much so as Amy.

Nah. Really, Amy's most useful ability is that she jumps higher than the other characters. Spikes and springs are barely worth noting outside of helping to separate character-specific paths.
 
The point should always be having fun playing a video game, and the positive feeling you get when you achieve something you've been struggling with for a while. That's what everything related to 100% completion in SRB2 aims to accomplish.

Considering how exactly this seems to be what both of us want despite our entirely different viewpoints and experiences on the matter, I feel as though a little bit more of an explanation of my side of things is necessary.

The key difference between our perspectives seems to be what we consider to be "fun", and how we go about achieving that sensation in video games. For me, it boils down to basically two essentials: Fun gameplay, and incentive to keep experiencing said gameplay.

What defines fun gameplay for me is simple: Responsive and intuitive controls that feel satisfying when put into motion. SRB2 does this quite well for the most part, better in fact than the majority of 3D games within the Sonic franchise. However, fun gameplay on it's own eventually grows stale.

This is where incentive to keep experiencing the gameplay comes into importance. There are a number of ways a game can achieve this. Some games reward you with progress through a story it has to tell. Some games give you missions to complete with rewards for you at the end. Some games give you a score of some kind to beat. Some games combine a number of different techniques together, etc.

The thing about a system similar to the Red Star Rings in Modern Sonic games, the emblems in SA1 and SA2, etc. is that you are continually rewarded as you collect them as your incentive for doing so. It's similar to why children go trick-or-treating during Halloween night. While yes, just the act of going out and searching for houses participating in the festivities is fun on it's own, what the kids are really after is the candy they receive for doing so.

It's fine to make collectable items difficult and time consuming to find/collect, but in doing so it's much more fun to be rewarded for doing so properly rather than just being able to boast about it. It's not necessarily that the lack of a proper reward is bad, it's more that it's more fun if you have a reason to do it other than just for the sake of doing it.

Sonic Generations has an interesting idea of achieving this. As you continue to collect Red Star Rings, you continue to receive small rewards for every one you collect based on how many you have so far. Sometimes you get concept art. Sometimes you get new music to listen to and use in stages. Sometimes you get new skills. You get the idea. Rather than striving for one really big reward after collecting them all as was how Colors Wii handled it, you collect many much smaller rewards that give you more immediate satisfaction, and the curiosity of what you might unlock next drives you to go after the next one.

Compare this to S4EII. Most people rarely even go after the Red Star Rings in that game because while the act of collecting one might feel a little bit satisfying in the moment, the game doesn't really do anything to motivate you to go after any that you don't happen to be able to grab along the way. You are not given incentive to go after them, and so they might as well not exist.

I am aware of Pandora's Box, but while it does technically count as an "unlockable", I don't really consider it technically a "reward". It effectively amounts to just a collection of cheats that for some reason disable save progress even though you've already done everything by the time you unlock it. It's fun for like maybe 10 minutes while you toy around with it, and then it basically just amounts to an easy way to check if a modded in character has a super form.

There's a number of different ways that different games handle 100% rewards. Some games give you a special ending. Some games give you an extra boss battle. Some games give you a special level to roam through, etc. The general idea behind this is that 100% is a noteworthy enough achievement that the player deserves something tangible in return for playing the game to completion.

While Modern Sonic specifically wouldn't need to be unlocked at 100%, some sort of character making use of that moveset would be really cool. It could be Shadow, It could be an original OC, it could even just be Classic Sonic again but with the different moveset.

What makes this moveset specifically so perfect for a 100% reward however is that the entirety of each level is open to it. You can bounce higher off springs and break fragile wood by stomping, similar to using Amy's hammer. You can boost through spikes, similar to using Metal's Dash mode. You can use the wall jump to access pathways usually only available to Tails and/or Knuckles. Basically by all accounts, a totally unfair character to be able to have before 100%, but a great way to give incentive for getting to and playing even after 100%. Use of the character in coop would even function as a great way to show off to your friends that you've done everything and unlocked that really cool thing for doing so, in turn acting as incentive for them to do the same thing.

As such, that kind of thing is just really fun. Sure, players who choose not to get 100% wouldn't have access to that character, but that would be entirely because of their choice not to go after it. Such a thing shouldn't be considered crucial content for every player to experience. A balanced character like Amy or Fang, sure, but not an overpowered character tied to doing everything there is to do.

I'm not trying to give the impression that a bonus character tied to 100% completion should make players feel as though 100% is mandatory. I agree with you that it should be the kind of thing where you only collect the emblems for as long as you want to. I just feel like the endeavor is more fun when there is something tangible you get after doing so. A reason for the journey to exist, rather than the journey needing to be it's own reward. A worthy prize for committing so much time and effort to doing all of the content the game has to offer.
 
The problem with the homing attack is that it disincentives players from learning to make proper use of momentum. If you screw up with your momentum, you can just use a homing attack and hit the thing you were trying to hit anyway. This does make things easier for new players, but not in a way that helps them to learn the game mechanics. Most players would probably choose not to turn the homing attack off ever, because it would seem at first to be infinitely more useful than the thok.

It's like if you were to put a toggle in to give Tails infinite flight. The natural progression in difficulty would be to toggle it off so that Tails can grow tired again, but most players would never feel incentive to do so because it would just feel like an unnecessary handicap given their options.

Restricting something like the homing attack behind the attraction shield is probably the best way to go about it. That way any of the characters can make use of it, and it works in a way that fits better within the momentum based classic gameplay style they are shooting for.

Giving Sonic a secondary ability on spin while midair (not the homing attack) would probably be better for making him more accessible. Something like a double jump, or the drop dash.

I can only speak for myself, but playing the Modern mod did make me better as playing at Vanilla Sonic, simply by virtue of playing the game more. I was aware I was playing with a "handicap" but when I went back, I was landing jumps more confidently and playing more aggressively -- which yielded more success.

Mind you, two important things -- before playing the Modern mod, I'd already completed the game twice with full emeralds, as Knuckles and Sonic & Tails. AND I am coming from the perspective as someone who has NEVER BEFORE enjoyed playing with Modern abilities until this Mod in this particular game.


We agree that giving Sonic an extra jump / recovery ability mid-air greatly improves his accessibility and level of difficulty.

Whether it's homing or double jump or whatever, I strongly encourage the Devs to consider this as an optional "Assist" or something, and to test with new players.

I think this addition would strongly help to pull in a new audience that the game deserves who might otherwise give up after half an hour.

---------- Post added at 05:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:30 AM ----------

This discussion showcases one of SRB2's biggest hurdles to overcome: the titular character--who is the main character of the entire franchise the game is a fangame of--is the HARDEST character by far (well okay maybe Fang is harder but he's an unlockable and intentionally weird) and there's really nothing the devteam can do about it. New players are just going to automatically pick Sonic because why wouldn't you pick Sonic? I don't envy the devteam.

This is exactly my point. I think the solution can be simple and elegant; it doesn't need to be a separate Sonic.

"Homing Assist: On or Off? (Recommended for beginners)"

Turn it on, and you simply apply the jump abilities from the Modern mod to Vanilla Sonic and thok becomes jump+spin. Turn it off, and Vanilla Sonic is as he is today.

Somebody in the chat was saying buffing Sonic's stats in any way for the benefit of newer players would destroy the record attack scene, so Homing Assist can't be used in record attack.

The point isn't to ruffle the feathers of long-time players but make the game accessible to someone who might be exposed to the game through videos like Woolie's, and be curious enough to try it, and then quit because it initially feels so significantly different from every other 3D platformer, and every other Sonic game. It's acknowledging the game has an existing player base who prefer "hard" Sonic, while also making the star of the game (and the one most fun to play) also the easiest/most accessible, whether you use Tails' flight assist or not.

As Mystic said above, players enjoy games for all kinds of reasons. There's a wide spectrum of difficulty options the game already offers to challenge players -- what it could benefit from having is essentially "easy mode" for Sonic.

"But Tails is already easy mode"

Tails is easy because of his ability to recover, but he presents the other challenge of getting lost in the level more easily. (Someone suggested adding a compass for Tails and I think that's a smart idea).

Rather than encouraging the player to NOT use the game's best character, why not instead offer the option of buffing the star character to be able to cheese harder platforming sections with the recovery provided by the homing/double jump.

Also, Tails is not Sonic, right, he's a different character with different abilities entirely and experiences the levels much differently by design. It's great to have the variety of options already present in the game.

"Homing Assist" is the idea that Sonic could be both the game's easiest character and most difficult character with the switch of a toggle.

It makes Sonic a bit more "easy to pick up, but difficult to master." Right now only the second half of that is really true.

In Woolie's video you can see he struggles playing as Sonic especially with navigating 3D space... and it's not even his first time. He said he'd played the game before and completed it (w/o emeralds) as Knuckles. I had kind of a similar experience in my first play throughs. It's clear from Woolie's video how much a new player would benefit from having a toggle-able Homing Assist training wheels as they learn the camera and movement controls. Woolie himself, like me and maybe everyone here, had the sort of passion through nostalgia to connect with the game and lean into it and be patient with it, and maybe the game should only be extremely niche within a niche within a niche like a Russian nesting doll of specific hobbies and interests, but I think a game like this is pretty special and deserves a wider audience. I think there's so much to appreciate and love in this game and it's a bummer that the barrier of entry is higher than it really needs to be.

And again -- I don't think anything else needs to really change other than the optional recovery buff. I don't think the levels need to be rebuilt or enemies relocated.
 
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Wouldn't it be better if there were Horizontal Springs here? these sections feel like they're just there to make you stop and charge your spindash.

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The steam jets in thz are kind of frustrating - I'd like for them to be larger, and for their "hitbox" to last for more than 1 tic. Maybe 3.
 
Is there any chance of Eggman (Eggpack) ever being an official unlockable? It would be cool if he was a secret unlockable tied to clearing the game once, same as Metal, and came with a "Metal and Eggman" option that is the same idea as "Sonic and Tails".

The reference heavy voice clips and super form doesn't even need to be a thing. Just the base character would be plenty.
 

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