I would say it's worthwhile to keep the thread going for as long as there is interest. Before the idea of locking the thread came up, this thread was almost 100% on topic! Nearly 300 posts all dedicated to discussing, debating, pitching, proposing, theorizing and think-tanking Sonic's ability. That's pretty good, everyone deserves a jolly pat on the back for some A+ message boarding, imo.
The discussion IS a bit circular -- but if you read from page one to here, you do see an evolution of discussion and some interesting thoughts and opinions.
Newer members like myself seem to be joining the board in larger numbers lately due to the 2.2+ upgrade and associated hype on message boards and a few Tubers. A new player who discovers the game, say, 3 months from now, will probably have their own thoughts on the matter.
Automatic braking does not do anything that the player could not already do manually. It simply automates a process that many players were finding difficult to grasp manually.
This describes the Homing, too, though, don't you see? You can manually jump through an enemy; or you can double-tap jump to jump through the nearest target. It automates a process that many players find difficult to grasp manually!
Because, as stated many times before, the homing attack does not solve the problem.
How/why is this so certain? I don't get that part. Because it's also been stated many times before (not
just by me) that it does help to solve the problem.
It's acknowledged as the most popular request.
It's clear in the Woolie video and the comments that the Homing is missed.
It's my personal feedback through XX hours of testing back and forth, fwiw.
And furthermore, how can we say it doesn't solve the problem, when it hasn't been tried outside of (popular) Mods?
This specific suggestion -- Homing and Thok co-existing in the same moveset -- hasn't been tried at all.
Modern's Boost is the closest to approximating a Thok with Homing but not exactly.
The homing attack is specifically designed to deal with enemies.
Not just enemies! Any object within the radius. Springs, item boxes. This significantly helps to automate a process that should be manual (targeting your jump for a small hit box) but players struggle with.
While yes, new players struggle for a bit handling enemies in 3D space initially, the part of the game which causes players trouble as Sonic isn't enemies; it's platforming. While official Sonic games have level design built around the homing attack that allows you to use the homing attack at all times, trivializing platforming, SRB2 does not do so.
This is the part everybody keeps missing -- it's actually
because SRB2 is not built with homing in mind that it works better here than the official games.
Had SRB2 been designed with it in mind, then probably tons of aspects would be different to accomodate the move, or challenge it. It's
good that it wasn't. It means that the levels work without it; that you don't need it; that it is a bonus power-up for the player to help
cheese levels without feeling like a
cheat.
The Modern Mod
significantly helped me play as Sonic and
enjoy the platforming
because of the Doublejump/Homing.
Not because of the stomp, or light dash, or boost. It was having the ability to target enemies/boxes/springs, and being able to double jump backwards from an error.
I'd completed a 7 emerald run with Sonic & Tails, but needed Tails to skip some portions; starting a new play-through as solo Sonic was initially so frustrating I figured I was probably done with the game for awhile (stopping around AC or RV). I figured, I'd beaten it twice, as Knuckles and as S&T, and after a few levels with Fang/Amy/Metal didn't feel especially compelled to continue*.
Thankfully, I found the Mod subforum! So when I returned to Classic after enjoying my time with Modern, I was surprised to find I played far better with Classic, and probably better than I would've had I only been playing as Tails/Knuckles/Fang/Amy since their moves are so different.
See, the Modern Mod jump abilities acted as training wheels, so that when I returned to the Vanilla Classic, knowing I was jumping "without a net" this time but also having a clearer feel for how to land those jumps, I was having fun playing as Sonic instead of cursing the game and my hands and this cursed, wretched fate! (Not quite that dramatic but you get the idea).
*(Fun bonus for this particular form of Sonic mania is you can literally track the evolution of my thought process on this in full, just through my post history here; also available now in MtFC Archives Vol. 3 -- Ed.)
In the absence of enemies, the homing attack is completely useless for platforming and therefore does not solve the core issue here.
In the absence of enemies, the homing attack in Sonic Adventure 1/2 is essentially the Thok -- it's a straight dash forward mid-air. (And the homing attack actually stinks out loud in the Adventure games, too, compared to the Modern Mod.)
So with Only Thok, it's a Sonic 3D adventure game with
more enemies and
more platforming challenges than all of the official games combined, but the player is equipped with fewer abilities. No wonder it's hard and off-putting to new players!
The ideal homing/double jump is present in the Modern Mod (a tweaked and refined version of the Sonic Colors moves) — but it doesn't have the Thok and it should (which, again, is fun
exactly how it is, for
what it is — an unmodulated mid-air speed boost forward that doesn't need to be removed or changed, simply supplemented). By themselves, neither Homing nor Thok are quite right, but taken together, it'd be like peanut butter and chocolate.
The homing attack is a completely different gameplay style from SRB2. It is not possible to input anything right now that emulates the homing attack without the attraction shield. There is a major difference between automating a process you could already do manually and automating something so significantly that the original gameplay is removed.
To be clear, the Homing mechanic that I'm advocating for specifically is the one from the Modern mod, aka the Colors moveset, but stripped of the other abilities and replaced with Thok. It's this:
- Jump = Super Sonic Spin Attack
- Spin = Roll
- Hold Spin = Spin Dash
- Jump x2 = Double jump from Sonic Colors; Homing if there's a target
- Jump x3 = Homing chain if applicable; if not, then mini-thok forward thrust
- Jump, then Spin = Thok (shield overrides when equipped; alternatively shield could override jumpx2 instead but idk)
Two button gameplay, as always; shields are variables, as always. Thok is a core part of Sonic's moveset, and leaves Homing as both a default and also entirely
optional for skilled players who don't need to double-tap jump if they don't want to. (Again, all of my suggestions are based around Thok + Homing together, not one or the other)
I know you like Double Jump, and also don't want Thok removed, so the only gulf is about Homing and chaining*, and opening up "Jump, Spin" beyond just shields.
Vanilla/base "Jump Spin" abilities are the key, at least for the star characters who should be overpowered. And really, it's just taking the idea from Adventure, which acknowledged if you have to have a separate button for "rolling" since it can no longer be "Down" then Sonic can no longer be a "1 button game" but must become a 2 button game in 3D.
Since SRB2 makes that same concession for 2 buttons, why should this game be having
less fun with the possible combinations of that?
"Thok is shooting Sonic like a gun," right? I like that description Unknownlight posted iirc, though he may've been quoting somebody else. Continuing that analogy — Thok is like a cannon/shotgun, and Homing is pistol with auto-aim. Both fun, and I strongly suspect, better when together than each on their own.
(Continuing with the idea of taking what works from official Sonic, I think Knuckles ought to have vanilla "Jump, Spin" abilities too, which is just his SA2 moveset, but now in SRB2, a game that's actually good and fun to explore with a camera you can control.
Jump x 2 = Glide / climb
Spin = Punch
Spin x 3 = Punch punch uppercut
Jump, then Spin = Downward Drill, which shields override
Makes him an even more interesting and unique character beyond glide/climb/walls/lowerjump.)
*Re: homing chaining
Here's why it's good, actually — again, this is assuming no changes at all to the level / enemy design present in 2.2 — it opens up a new unique path for Sonic in Pinball Form by enabling the player to go through the level mostly in Ball Form, paved by Homing Chaining enemies and objects, and rolling and Thokking.
It's an aerial path inherently very different from aerial paths by Tails or Knuckles, as they move through the air and especially in relation to enemies much differently. It's a wholly unique extra-dimensional path offered to Sonic only, while also making him the easiest and most overpowered character -- which is true to both the series mythos and design ethos.
Playing only as Sonic, the player has the choice of different pathways L/R/U/D built into the level design on the ground/running paths,
and those same pathways, but more through the air, trying to stay in Ball Form as much as possible with homing and thokking and rolling, which is not as feasible with Only Thok/Roll/Spin Dash.
Sonic is a Pinball Platformer... the thrill is in the speed and lighting up the scoreboard and finding secret paths and making it look cool. Chaining homing attacks on Crawlas in GF2 and then Thokking forward into the level is one example of the game achieving that. The skilled player can chain bops on Crawlas without the homing attack, of course -- it's just that homing enables the player with an extra bumper for 3D accuracy.