A Few Thoughts on Level Design

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Thanks

Honey, you got to post your topic in the submissions subforum first. The judges look it over and tell you if you still need to work on anything before you get to go on stage, and then you go public. You'll get in the swing of things, don't worry.

More details here.
Thanks very much. I´m making a new level pack and moth ago I tried to get the first map on the levels addon topic. Now I know how can I post my mod there when it´s complete
 
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I don't think so, but if it is, you can take it up with Azure Temple Zone.

ERZ isn't hard to me, it's just.. long.

Anyways back to the point, Emotion is something you have to make the player feel for, like if that was actually happening to them.

Most mappers I've seen come out with a failed experiment, but like someone said, a failed experiment is better than no experiment at all.
 
ERZ is still that easy I can go it with ultimate mode.

ERZ isn't actually much harder with Ultimate Mode, since most of the hazards are instant-kill and therefore rings don't matter that much.
 
When was the last time that you, one of the finest mappers in this community, have submitted anything to the OLDC? Three years ago. Why is that? Certainly not because you're intimidated by our expectations.
When I was finishing my level pack back in late 2008, it was my last year in the university, so I needed to stop for a bit. I recovered my spare time later on, in late 2010. But I could have make something ever since. In fact, I did, but no release of actual maps.

The problem is that, this community and the staff worsened a bit regarding the elitism, arrogance and carelessness during these last 3 years. I found some peals like, if my memory serves me right, "During this discussion, keep in mind that your opinion is irrelevant / doesn't matter" (I found it in a discussion page on SRB2Wiki), it's a small thing, but this sentence represented pretty well the relationship among some members, and between the staff and members. On top of that, I have witnessed, during this period, lots of things that I despise, so I started to think "what the hell I'm doing here?", but still I was quite attached to my project and level making. However, making maps for SRB2 become burdensome, why? You spend tons of your spare time for a "place" that you don't feel fit in, although you still like what you do... so, why I should spend my spare time for fun in a place that I don't feel fit in? hey! I already have a job.

I like the way how Doom engine works. I like the way how I can make levels. I like the concept behind Sonic's classics. I like SRB2. But the "atmosphere"... Probably, things here have always been like this since the beginning. I believe the oldbies that I met back in the days I joined helped to make things look friendlier. Probably I am wrong. I have to remind myself that SRB2 is not a community project. I expect some change? No.

It is a honest answer, I think you shouldn't be left with no answer from my part.

As for "dead submission board": I did pick wrong words. I mean, the add-on boards: maps, characters, EXE mods, including the period prior to the submission system. I can barely find new topics, posts or new projects.

EDIT:

I was afraid of venting these things for two reasons:
1) I don't like demotivating people, specially the ones who recently joined.
2) Moderators and Administrators may take it bad.
 
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The problem is that, this community and the staff worsened a bit regarding the elitism, arrogance and carelessness during these last 3 years. I found some peals like, if my memory serves me right, "During this discussion, keep in mind that your opinion is irrelevant / doesn't matter" (I found it in a discussion page on SRB2Wiki), it's a small thing, but this sentence represented pretty well the relationship among some members, and between the staff and members.
I'd be cautious before lumping the entire community into a single group. Groups are made of individuals, remember. Lots of us still would enjoy your content. And those prideful few will ruin your day if you forget about all the others. You're not mapping for that kind of person.
 
The problem is that, this community and the staff worsened a bit regarding the elitism, arrogance and carelessness during these last 3 years.
Where are you getting this from? It's a very strong accusation, and the more you repeat it, the more I start to think you're just taking a lot of things the wrong way (see below). I'm not denying there are instances of elitism and arrogance; for example, it sometimes happens that when a newbie makes a release, the topic is met with some rather negative and unconstructive comments. I hate it as much as you do when that happens, but it's not nearly as common as you make it out to be, and more importantly, it happens a lot less than it used to. If your whole opinion of this community is influenced by your view of us as frequently elitist, arrogant and careless, then I urge you to reconsider, because that's really not the case.

I found some peals like, if my memory serves me right, "During this discussion, keep in mind that your opinion is irrelevant / doesn't matter" (I found it in a discussion page on SRB2Wiki), it's a small thing, but this sentence represented pretty well the relationship among some members, and between the staff and members.
You're referring to this. First of all, this was really, really, really stupid proposal (I can't stress enough how stupid it was) by Digiku and me. Everybody rightfully called me out on my bullshit, I'm ashamed of my part in it and I sincerely apologize for whatever stupid things I said. I would never say or do something like this now. That said, you misinterpreted a comment of mine, specifically this one:

Myself said:
If you object to any of these, state it here and give good reasoning. Remember, Wikis are not a democracy, and if there more people opposing, that doesn't mean anything. We will eventually do whatever is best, so if one of these changes is not helpful, state why.
Obviously, I worded that really badly. I wanted to reiterate Wikipedia's policy "Wikipedia is not a democracy". What that means is that decisions aren't made by a vote of majority, they're made by considering the arguments of both sides and reaching a decision based on that. I said that because I feared people would not provide reasoning and just oppose without a comment. My words absolutely didn't come out right and I can see why they sounded discouraging, but equating them with "During this discussion, keep in mind that your opinion is irrelevant / doesn't matter" is absolutely false. Why would I even open a discussion if I thought that the opinion of the community doesn't matter? If I believed that, I could have just went ahead and done it. I even explained that to you in said discussion, but you don't seem to have taken notice: "Not a democracy != you have nothing to say. You have just as much to say as I do, but your opinion doesn't matter, your arguments do." Again, I didn't word this ideally, but it should have been sufficient to convince you that my intent wasn't to belittle anyone's opinion or contributions.

I have to remind myself that SRB2 is not a community project.
Huh? It is a community project. Where do you think all the devs are coming from?

As for "dead submission board": I did pick wrong words. I mean, the add-on boards: maps, characters, EXE mods, including the period prior to the submission system. I can barely find new topics, posts or new projects.
That has always been the case. There was a short surge in activity when 2.0 was released (for obvious reasons) and when SRB2 Riders was released. That these activity surges don't persist is a normal development. It's true that this community is less active than it used to be, but you have to remember that this is a game that runs on an 18-year-old engine and is vastly out of touch with the gaming preferences of just about every person on the planet, not to mention that it's based on a franchise that has lost a lot of popularity and its entire reputation in recent years. On top of that, the last release was over two years ago and our PR work is pretty much non-existent. I don't think it has anything to do with the way we treat our userbase. Nothing has changed in that regard since 2008.
 
Huh? It is a community project. Where do you think all the devs are coming from?

Call me out on this if I'm interpreting this wrong, but I think what Ezer meant is that it's not a community project in that the actual community contributes to the game. Practically anyone who actually has their content in the game is a dev. I think I brought this up a few times in my complaints about the 2.1 MP pack only having maps made by developers (For better or worse), though that was really only for my own selfish intents.
 
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Call me out on this if I'm interpreting this wrong, but I think what Ezer meant is that it's not a community project in that the actual community contributes to the game. Practically anyone who actually has their content in the game is a dev. I think I brought this up a few times in my complaints about the 2.1 MP pack only having maps made by developers (For better or worse), though that was really only for my own selfish intents.
To briefly expand on this, imagine SRB2 being this community-driven project where everyone can add levels and the single player campaign that comes built-in is over 50 stages long. Sure, you could argue that at least 40 of them would most likely be shitty, but then consider that the majority of the official stages in SRB2 isn't actually that good (nor is it, as one would expect, the very best of everything ever produced).
 

First phrase I see: "penis stretching"

But to be serious, I can understand where Ezer is coming from, in many ways. Though, I think it's a bit overexaggerated, as are most complaints regarding the forums, and the devs. For example, the devs and moderators may be strict, and indeed, they're honest enough to tell you that when they err, they tend to err on the side of too strict. But they are not "national socialists", as I've seen them called.

But if I had to name one thing that I really dislike in this community, it would be the incessant ridiculing that goes on all around. When a new member, probably a little kid about 12 years old, comes around and doesn't know how to act properly, the community seems to care more about poking and prodding him until he explodes in a fit of childish rage. Any actual good advice or help anyone gives to the person is usually so filled with expletives that it does absolutely no good at all. Here's where this important point comes in. You have to not only be right, but you have to sound right. And if you don't do that gently and persuasively, you'll often sound asinine, instead of sounding right. I can't stress how important it is to communicate yourself properly. Especially as on the internet, you can't see the other person's body language, or hear their tone of voice, it's very critical to phrase everything just as you want the other person to interpret it. If you are filling your sentences with the F word when you aren't really angry, it's very easy for someone to think you are genuinely pissed off. In the same way, sarcasm is a bad tactic, because it relies mostly on tone of voice to get the point across. I have seen countless times where people misinterpreted each other because one unsuccessfully tried to use sarcasm on the internet.

So tell me, were you an idiot when you first started using the internet? Chances are, you were. I know I did my fair share of unbelievably dumb things on VGMusic, which was my first forum. I look back with shame on it now. But what made me learn lessons? Part of it was just experience, and time to learn to think about my actions. I had people ridicule me multiple times, but that just made me sore at those people. What really helped me, were the few members who took the time to talk to me maturely, chastise me accordingly when necessary, and generally deal with me as someone who they believed had potential. Of course, you could always say "the people that treated me like shit made me realize that I was being stupid and it made me change my way of doing things and start standing up for myself" and use that as justification for treating new people like shit. But that argument is only as logical as the "my parents bullied me and I learned to stand up for myself, so obviously abuse is beneficial and I will in turn bully those under me".

But really, as humans, if we have any interest in harmony, we ought to be building each other up, not throwing stones at each other. It's not a one fits all approach. Sometimes, someone needs a harsh word, to wake them up, especially if you've told them the advice multiple times, and they haven't responded to it. Just like children need spankings or such when they act up in direct defiance. But before you lash anyone, you ought to be fairly sure it is what they need. Everything you say to someone, should have their best interests in mind. I don't mean what they want, but what they need. After all, doesn't everyone have potential? I know some of you may not agree with me on this, but I believe that within every person is a certain amount of potential, potential to make a great destiny. Whether they will embrace this potential and use it, or not, is not our call. But we can help them along the way, whether it be by giving them warm hospitality, or by kicking them out the door, into the cold outdoors. Sometimes people need a hand to help them out, other times they need a whack upside the head. There is an appropriate time for each. We can't leave them wallowing in mud, but we also can't let them track mud all over our houses. Let's show them how to wash themselves, and hope they develop a sense of cleanliness. But no amount of hands, whether helping or hitting, will ever force someone to be great. But it will certainly leave them without excuse.

But it isn't only new people that get ridiculed in this community. If I may be so bold to bring it up in this topic, why on earth is BlueZero4 still a regular topic of derision in #srb2fun? I don't even join the chatroom that often, because I find it very distracting, but even for the few times I am there, I've seen lots of discussions where people talk about how stupid and pretentious he is. I mean, really. He made a few hastily written votes a few OLDC's ago, that he really didn't think through. When he realized how stupid and jerkish he had sounded, he went around, actually apologizing to those he had offended. That should have been the end of it. But no, merely a week ago, there it is again, everyone mocking out BlueZero4 for the very things he apologized for saying. And Mystic, our head administrator, was right in the thick of it. It's this kind of gossip that is completely unnecessary, and hurtful to the community.

I could name many other situations, too. I remember when I released The Map with No Name into the OLDC, it was badly recieved. For good reason, I had seriously screwed it over when I made it as dark as I did. But when I was shocked just how vehemently people ridiculed me over it. I was trying to defend its good points, and some of the ideas behind it, but no. It was "fucking terrible", and according to MrMystery, 'Charybdizs obviously isn't going to listen to advice, so why are we talking to him?' I'm sorry, but I learned a lot from that map. And quite honestly, I learned a lot more from those who were willing to actually come beside me and explain it gently, instead of poking me with hot irons for it. In case you're curious, those people were CoatRack, and Whackjood. But hot irons, they tend to be a little distracting. Hard to learn when you're angry.

I'm constantly surprised by how quickly anyone will jump into criticising something they know nothing about, too. To list one more incident, just the other day, I was holding a discussion on #srb2fun. I had asked for some advice, because I felt a little irked over something someone had done, and I wanted other people's opinions on whether my displeasure was justified, or not. I hadn't made any actions on it, I just wanted to know what others think. In the middle of a full fledged conversation on it, Mystic popped into the conversation, not reading anything but the past few lines, and said "Someone sounds butthurt. Ridiculously hilariously butthurt." That's quite ridiculous, because the mode of conversation was phrased exactly as I just described it. "I feel a little bruised about this. Should I be?" But people are so hasty to pronounce judgements about something they weren't even there for.

But that's the negative. On the opposite note, I have to say, I have a lot of respect for the staff, each one of you, for keeping the level of maturity at what it is. I took it for granted for a while, and then I found the minecraft forums. Here, almost every post is interesting, and a contribution to the discussion. There, it's useless to read past the OP, even for important topics for well known mods. But here, everything is intelligent, or at least attempts to be, and it's worth reading. I usually even read topics that don't interest me very much. Discounting a few trolls, I've had plenty of awesome and edifying discussions in the Colosseum that never erupted into mass chaos or drama, which is amazing in and of its own. I think the only major problem about this community, is the damaging but very prevalent cynicism. That could use some attention.

Edit: That all being said, I have nothing against some of the ridiculing. Like, SoniMoc. It's not like we ought to be trying to help the children grow better at making sprite comics or anything. :p
 
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The problem is that, this community and the staff worsened a bit regarding the elitism, arrogance and carelessness during these last 3 years.
I believe the oldbies that I met back in the days I joined helped to make things look friendlier.
But if I had to name one thing that I really dislike in this community, it would be the incessant ridiculing that goes on all around. When a new member, probably a little kid about 12 years old, comes around and doesn't know how to act properly, the community seems to care more about poking and prodding him until he explodes in a fit of childish rage.
There is actually less elitism and asshole behavior here than ever, and if you don't believe me, look at our old posts. How do you jump? is a notorious topic that's been commonly passed around here as humor, but notice how completely blatant the elitism and mockery is in that thread. That topic is certainly not an isolated case. Go take a random sample of threads from whatever time period you think the forums were at their peak and get ready for a rude awakening.

The reality here is that you're just noticing it more as you're becoming older, making you more observant as to the reality of what's going on. It's been here from the start, and it's a problem in every online community, not just here.

When I was finishing my level pack back in late 2008, it was my last year in the university, so I needed to stop for a bit. I recovered my spare time later on, in late 2010. But I could have make something ever since. In fact, I did, but no release of actual maps.
As for "dead submission board": I did pick wrong words. I mean, the add-on boards: maps, characters, EXE mods, including the period prior to the submission system. I can barely find new topics, posts or new projects.
You're kinda just feeding the cycle here. Interest in SRB2 is waning, and therefore few people continue to make content for it. There's nothing more annoying than people who say "WHERE IS THE NEW CONTENT?" and "I DON'T WANT TO MAKE CONTENT THAT TAKES WORK" in the same post. You can't have it both ways. Choose one or the other.

So tell me, were you an idiot when you first started using the internet? Chances are, you were. I know I did my fair share of unbelievably dumb things on VGMusic, which was my first forum. I look back with shame on it now. But what made me learn lessons? Part of it was just experience, and time to learn to think about my actions. I had people ridicule me multiple times, but that just made me sore at those people. What really helped me, were the few members who took the time to talk to me maturely, chastise me accordingly when necessary, and generally deal with me as someone who they believed had potential.
Actually, hold on a second. My early days on the internet are thankfully lost to the wells of time, but I'm fully aware of how much of a standard internet idiot I was when I was 12-13 and I started to discover forums. I really don't think I learned anything until I crossed the line and got permbanned from a place I liked for being an immature twat. The people who gently told me what to do to shape up didn't work, and it took losing something I cared about due to my actions for me to finally take notice. The realization that the actions I make have real consequences was an important turning point and I really don't think that there's any substitute for that.

What IS a problem is when it ceases to be about pointing out the problem and becomes about beating a dead horse, as best demonstrated in the topic I linked above. There's a difference between harsh treatment for wrong-doing and just being an asshole, and some people around here really need to learn that.

If I may be so bold to bring it up in this topic, why on earth is BlueZero4 still a regular topic of derision in #srb2fun? I don't even join the chatroom that often, because I find it very distracting, but even for the few times I am there, I've seen lots of discussions where people talk about how stupid and pretentious he is.
The reason BlueZero4's pretentiousness came up in #srb2fun recently is because of the existence of this topic. When trying to convey a point, it's best to be concise and word your statements with as few words as reasonably possible to make your ideas flow forth naturally. BZ4's posts (including the OP of this thread) frequently feel like reading the philosophical ramblings of a druggie who thinks he just came up with the meaning of life. He goes on and on about nothing and even if there is a good point in there somewhere, it's almost impossible to extract it because of all the philosophical cruft around it. It detracts from a topic when there is a massive wall of text in the OP just as badly as a topic with a three word OP is also detrimental. This is why he continues to be called pretentious.
 
Sure, you could argue that at least 40 of them would most likely be shitty, but then consider that the majority of the official stages in SRB2 isn't actually that good (nor is it, as one would expect, the very best of everything ever produced).
First of all, yes, 2.0's single player campaign is rather mediocre overall, I agree. But I also believe that 2.1 will bring serious improvements. Then, there's a big difference between an SRB2 where 80% of all maps are shitty and an SRB2 where a few maps are great, another few are good and yet another few are mediocre. If everybody could submit their maps, the result would be a disastrous mishmash of mostly terrible maps without any internal consistency.

And really, how many maps are there that can compete with SRB2's finest parts?

For example, the devs and moderators may be strict, and indeed, they're honest enough to tell you that when they err, they tend to err on the side of too strict.
Well, to be fair, I am the only staff member who said that and I can't speak for the whole team. But the reality is that we're neither geniuses nor professional, and we make mistakes all the time. Oftentimes, it's not that easy to decide whether a post is worthy of an infraction, a warning or nothing at all, but it's easy to fall in a mentality where you'd rather infract a post than not because then you can rest assured that the issue is resolved. Recently, we had a user who joined the forum and proceeded to make a whole bunch of rule-breaking posts before any moderator could see them. The result was that several moderators saw his posts and infracted them independently without realizing that the others were doing the same. Before anyone could realize it, he was on a strike 1 ban before he even got the chance to see any of his warnings.

What I'm saying is: It's inevitable that we make false and unfair decisions, and due to the nature of our job, we tend to be too strict rather than too lenient. If it helps anything, in the future I will be sure to add a comment to every warning I issue, explaining what the user did wrong in a friendly tone. I have the feeling a lot of users don't realize that warnings have no consequences and scared off because of that. We don't issue actual infractions a lot, and it's even rarer that we ban somebody.

Regarding the issue of ridiculing people, criticizing them too harshly and treating them badly in general: Yes, this happens, especially in the chatroom. Not so much on the forum, which is why I'm confused as to where EzerArch (who only joins the channel once in a blue moon) is getting all the bad vibes from. It's true that the chatroom is judgmental and unwelcoming of newcomers, and whether or not we should do something against that is certainly worth a discussion. But on the forums? I don't know, maybe I just look the other way whenever well-respected members of the forum mistreat newbies, but I don't see that happening a lot. Occasionally a user will criticize a clearly failed level in rather undiplomatic terms, but the truth is we can't force people to sugarcoat their criticisms as long as they're valid.

Now for the chatroom. Let me just explain one aspect of the dilemma: Most teenagers who are inexperienced with internet chatting outside of their own social group (or perhaps the MS) won't be accustomed to our rather strict rules, especially regarding the quality of typing, and the high level of maturity we ask of our users. Of course, this is no excuse, since the first thing you see when you join the channel is a link to the rules, and it can be expected of everybody with a brain to click the link, read the rules and follow them. But in reality few people actually read the rules. Now the appropriate reaction would be to politely remind the user to read the rules and follow them, and this is what some people do. The problem is that a lot of community members don't have the patience to deal with newbies all the time, and one can hardly blame them. The problem is that oftentimes a new user will join the channel, misbehave in some way and nobody will be around to deal with him appropriately. Instead he will encounter a bunch of regulars whose reaction is "didn't read the rules? Well, fuck him!" and they will then try to get rid of him, frequently by provoking the newbie. When I walk into this as an operator, all I see is a user I don't know yelling at other users. All that's left for me to do is to kick him. Maybe not the best reaction, but I freely admit that we do give experienced members more leeway, often without realizing it.

It's never nice to criticize other people in public, so I'll only touch on the BZ4 issue briefly: The reason his behavior was made fun of in the channel is because this isn't the first time something like this has happened. Since at least 2009, he has had a habit of unintentionally offending people with his posts, apologizing for it and then doing it all over again a few months later. I'm not very happy with the way he's talked about in the channel, but you have to realize that the bad attitude a lot of people have towards him doesn't come from nothing. However, I would prefer it if we didn't talk about this here on the forum in the interest of preventing more drama.
 
When trying to convey a point, it's best to be concise and word your statements with as few words as reasonably possible to make your ideas flow forth naturally. BZ4's posts (including the OP of this thread) frequently feel like reading the philosophical ramblings of a druggie who thinks he just came up with the meaning of life. He goes on and on about nothing and even if there is a good point in there somewhere, it's almost impossible to extract it because of all the philosophical cruft around it. It detracts from a topic when there is a massive wall of text in the OP just as badly as a topic with a three word OP is also detrimental. This is why he continues to be called pretentious.
I've always considered the word "pretentious" to address the attitude with which one speaks, rather than the brevity and clarity of one's writing. I understand that I often don't revise my posts here and simply publish a first draft, which is the cause of the cruft. I hit a few good points by way of rabbit trail, and then was too lazy to revise it.
 
Actually, hold on a second. My early days on the internet are thankfully lost to the wells of time, but I'm fully aware of how much of a standard internet idiot I was when I was 12-13 and I started to discover forums. I really don't think I learned anything until I crossed the line and got permbanned from a place I liked for being an immature twat. The people who gently told me what to do to shape up didn't work, and it took losing something I cared about due to my actions for me to finally take notice. The realization that the actions I make have real consequences was an important turning point and I really don't think that there's any substitute for that.

So in other words, you had to be whacked upside the head. I hope I didn't phrase myself wrong, I was never against bans in the least. Heh, I approve of every ban on this forum.
For what it's worth, I have never gotten a ban or infraction on any forum I was ever on. But IRC is a different story. :>

What IS a problem is when it ceases to be about pointing out the problem and becomes about beating a dead horse, as best demonstrated in the topic I linked above. There's a difference between harsh treatment for wrong-doing and just being an asshole, and some people around here really need to learn that.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to get at.

The reason BlueZero4's pretentiousness came up in #srb2fun recently is because of the existence of this topic.

Well, maybe this time, but I've seen it happen numerous other times before this topic. Even a mention of his name, or Nuclear Sunset Zone, will start it. Or even just the mention of the word "soul". :p

Spiritcrusher said:
And really, how many maps are there that can compete with SRB2's finest parts?

srb2 cape cod
 
First of all, yes, 2.0's single player campaign is rather mediocre overall, I agree. But I also believe that 2.1 will bring serious improvements. Then, there's a big difference between an SRB2 where 80% of all maps are shitty and an SRB2 where a few maps are great, another few are good and yet another few are mediocre. If everybody could submit their maps, the result would be a disastrous mishmash of mostly terrible maps without any internal consistency.
I didn't say every submitted map would get accepted. But submitting maps would be a thing and bar would be a little lax, welcoming okay maps alongside good maps. Also, I was kind of hinting that 80% SRB2's campaign already is kinda shitty. No pressure on the new CEZ or anything!

And really, how many maps are there that can compete with SRB2's finest parts?
Is this a joke? So much stuff made by Mystic, FuriousFox, Tets, Blade, Thompson and probably others I'm forgetting that is so much better than Greenflower and fraggin' Techno Hill Zone by now. I'm not saying every stage has to be on par with ERZ2, but there is certainly better content (and in greater quantity) outside the main download.
 
Is this a joke? So much stuff made by Mystic, FuriousFox, Tets, Blade, Thompson and probably others I'm forgetting that is so much better than Greenflower and fraggin' Techno Hill Zone by now. I'm not saying every stage has to be on par with ERZ2, but there is certainly better content (and in greater quantity) outside the main download.

Huh, I always thought the point of SRB2 was to provide a basis for free modification with the SP campaign being a "teaser," if you will. Being the stages get progressively better and better, and then you decide "this is cool," go download some high-rated levels and BAM! Awesomeness ensues.

Well this is at least the idea I got with 80% of SRB2's resources being pointed at modification (and even more with LUA scripting...)

However, I want you to go take the word "free" and fly with it. Unconventionality is always good. You may take this statement too far and say "but a level made of all deathpits isn't good!" and I'll say "Challenge accepted." (Imagine a mod where the floor kills you. But you can develop this well. The player can only navigate using springs or zoom tubes, something along the lines of an even more brutal Cloud Cradle zone. It could be made to work.)

This is further augmented by SRB2's engine. People go about saying "the engine is so limited blah blah bahl" but they're missing the point. It is the most versatile game engine I know. It lasted 20 years and spawned a game with (custom) levels greater than 90% of the shit you find in modern games! The versatility comes from the limitations! If you want it to look good, you have to work hard, but the good looks can spawn from the limitations! You can make a terrain map out of a bunch of triangles, yes. But it looks too (yes, too) good. You can model the terrain to exactly what you need in SRB2. No worrying about handling collisions with complex polygons! No worrying about global lighting! SRB2 provides level developers with so much versatility because the engine itself lacks complexity. The complexity is yours to put in, you must make it yourself; you don't define a light, you make the lighting just as you want it because there is no lighting. You don't have to deal with premade detailed elements because there are none. Everything can be done in at least 20 different ways because of all the workarounds put into place because of the limitations. Its inefficiencies cause the outcome to be what you want. You can devise atmosphere in SRB2, you can put emotion into your maps, you can make it completely out of ponies, all because the base framework is so simple compared to modern framework. Look at what has been done with just flat surfaces, 8-bit textures, and sprited objects! You don't find this much awesome material in any other game!

Wow, I hope that's readable. Sorry about the wall of text; I hope what I'm trying to say can come through. TL;DR: SRB2 is the most versatile because it is the most limited.

EDIT: SRB2 is the most versatile Sonic game because the engine is not based for a Sonic game. So it is possible to do so much more than a standard Sonic game because it isn't a Sonic game.
 
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I didn't say every submitted map would get accepted. But submitting maps would be a thing and bar would be a little lax, welcoming okay maps alongside good maps.
Which would result in a bunch of unrelated maps made by different users without knowledge of each other, destroying any semblance of internal consistency, difficulty curve and uniqueness among the levels. I can assure you that if everybody could submit maps, certain themes and gimmicks would show up a lot. The goal of SRB2's single player campaign has always been to make a game that can stand on its own. By making it open for submissions, you turn it into a compilation of maps.

Also, I was kind of hinting that 80% SRB2's campaign already is kinda shitty.
I disagree vehemently. The only parts of the single player campaign that I would say anywhere near approach shitty are THZ (heavily revamped in 2.1), CEZ (even more revamped in 2.1) and maybe GFZ (well, there's a certain resistance to change too much about this one in the dev team). The rest, while sometimes kind of rudimentary (RVZ) or flawed (DSZ), is among the more enjoyable output of this community.

Is this a joke? So much stuff made by Mystic, FuriousFox, Tets, Blade, Thompson and probably others I'm forgetting that is so much better than Greenflower and fraggin' Techno Hill Zone by now.
That is completely besides the point of my question. I asked which levels could compete with SRB2's best, not its worst. Anyway, anything Mystic makes ends up in SRB2 anyway, nothing FuriousFox and Tets have made would reach the quality standards of what we would like to have, Thompson's maps - as much as I love them - are way too unpolished and frankly controversial among the community to even be considered. I can't really argue against Blade, his level would certainly fit with SRB2. And although Sapphire Coast may still be too complex to replace GFZ (people usually spend ages in GFZ1 adjusting to the controls), it certainly does beat the snot out of GFZ and its awkward anachronisms from the last millennium.

I'm not saying every stage has to be on par with ERZ2, but there is certainly better content (and in greater quantity) outside the main download.
Certainly, if only because SRB2 doesn't have that much content to begin. But that doesn't mean that this external content should be put into SRB2, because it would never fit in with the rest of the game. It's far more sensible to continue doing what the dev team already does: improving the content that is already there.
 
You know? With all of the talk of the community submitting maps for the SP portion of SRB2, I'm honestly kind of surprised that nobody's mentioned the multiplayer portion. The only thing that's really keeping the community from contributing to that is a certain bar of quality.
 
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